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Shadowwaltz · 11/11/11, 12:32 PM

The easier rotation isn't really an advantage, since arcane shot marks is even easier and is still higher DPS. The raid buff is really nice, no denying that, but since every DPS DK has to be frost right now (and next patch too unless UH gets even more buffs) it's not a huge problem.

As far as player skill mattering, all I meant was that anyone who's good enough at marks will be able to do more DPS as marks than surv on virtually every fight.

Andil · 11/11/11, 4:32 PM

In my opinion it's far more easy to mess up with the marksman rotation than with the SV rotation, especially when you have to pay a lot of attention to your surrounding. Getting the most benefit out of dynamic haste effects is more difficult as marksman compared to SV, especially if a lot of movement is involved. These circumstances lower the theoretical difference between SV and MM. So, basically just saying, that the gap might be much smaller than most people expect from the pure numbers (which don't mimic a realistic fight anyway).

Rexak · 11/14/11, 11:14 PM

PTR Built 14995:

Survival

T.N.T. now has a 10/20% chance to proc, up from 6/12%.

Another nice boost which further closes the gap bettween Survival and MM.

Gada · 11/15/11, 7:50 AM

Er, not sure if intended or bug but i seemed to get multiple LnL procs of one BA application. They removed / forgot LnL cooldown ?

Neruse · 11/15/11, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gada

Er, not sure if intended or bug but i seemed to get multiple LnL procs of one BA application. They removed / forgot LnL cooldown ?

I'm on the PTR right now and I've gotten LnL procs within 10-15s of another via Explosive Trap. And I just had an occurance of one LnL proc on the second tick of BA, and a second LnL proc on the last of the same BA.

I can still get a LnL proc from BA/ExT and then force proc Ice Trap for another LnL. Force proccing Ice Trap for LnL then getting another LnL proc, faster than the 22s ICD, from ExT also works.

pichuca · 11/15/11, 2:38 PM

I was able to get back to back LnL proccs combining Ice+ Explosive trap.

[20:17:57.958] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:18:01.554] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:18:13.598] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:18:24.383] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:18:34.735] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:18:46.495] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:18:47.716] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:18:57.764] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:19:09.899] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:19:11.135] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:19:11.884] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:19:21.947] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:19:33.939] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:19:35.149] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:19:47.140] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:19:48.102] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:20:00.255] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:20:03.894] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:20:04.567] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:20:14.720] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:20:27.000] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:20:28.119] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:20:30.963] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:20:41.055] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:20:53.110] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu

But not from only Explosive trap

[20:21:37.009] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:21:48.613] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:22:00.770] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:22:04.347] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:22:14.755] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:22:26.042] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:22:37.766] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:22:49.879] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:22:50.646] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:23:00.767] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu
[20:23:12.754] Pichuu's Lock and Load fades from Pichuu
[20:23:15.922] Pichuu gains Lock and Load from Pichuu
[20:23:27.709] Pichuu's Lock and Load is refreshed by Pichuu

That´s a pretty small source but could not get it any bigger due to DCs

Carlaena · 11/15/11, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by pichuca

But not from only Explosive trap

Explosive Trap:

BA:

It took me about 25 mins to get the BA one to occur. It could be coincidence, but they are both 12 seconds apart... possible new ICD?

Need more data to confirm of course.

pichuca · 11/15/11, 3:09 PM

What I meant is that using both ice and explosive trap I could get proccs within 1-2 sec instead of 12 sec while using BA or Explosive only. In fact the above log I posted shows proccs within 10 secs with explosive trap

Warper · 11/16/11, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by pichuca

What I meant is that using both ice and explosive trap I could get proccs within 1-2 sec instead of 12 sec while using BA or Explosive only.

This behavious exists on live servers since 4.0 if not even earlier.
Ice trap triggers "weak L'n'L" (as I call it) if it debuffs target. Apparently it doesn't work on bosses and boss level dummies. As far as I remember in 4.0 and early 4.1 it did not overcome Explosive shot cooldown even though LnL buff appeared. Testing it in 4.2 I got a bit different result. Now it provides LnL buff and instantly removes ExS cooldown.
Black Arrow, Fire Trap, Explosive Trap and Freezing Trap trigger "strong L'n'L". It provides LnL buff and instantly removes ExS cooldown. This effect is not blocked by internal cooldown of weak LnL, that is you can get weak LnL and then strong LnL during weak LnL internal CD. Unfortunately it doesn't work in opposite direction, so Ice Trap after recent BA's LnL will not grant you another LnL.

This kind of mechanics provides magnificient possibilities for bosses with minions. For example, you can get 2 LnL procs in one Ragnaros transition phase. You can make similar tricks for Betty (on small spiders), Ryolith (fragments are all yours), Alisrazor (especially useful on meteors). I believe survival spec has not got enough love of community even though it can beat marksman in some encounters.

odjbo · 11/25/11, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Esoth

[top]Enchants

Shoulders: [Greater Inscription of Shattered Crystal] (Therazane Revered) or Swiftsteel Inscription (Scribes only)

You quote Revered, it's actually Exalted.

Naeis · 12/03/11, 12:41 AM

It appears the reduced ICD of LnL made it to live. (looks like 10-12 seconds as opposed to the old 22 sec icd)

This change + the buff to LnL proc chance (12% -> 20%) allows for fairly consistently getting 2 LnL procs for every explosive trap.

The longer duration and more frequent ticks of explosive trap, and the subsequently more frequent LnL procs, seem to put it ahead in the single target rotation over Black arrow (despite it's slightly lower individual dmg).

I will try to supplement this with empirical data soon.

EDIT: also worth noting is the impact of focus cost this has on our rotation. Using Trap launcher/Explosive Trap is 10 focus (glyphed), vs the 35 focus for BA.

I found it much easier to keep ES on cd when using trap launcher over BA. Generally I like to keep my focus low as SV, as during LnL procs, it's very easy to cap focus if you're still using T12 4pc and get an (un)lucky Adrenaline Rush proc :/ I've found times when I use Kill Command in between ES's during LnL, only to have it consume an AR proc, and still cap on focus hehe.

Asaki · 12/07/11, 3:17 AM

The scary thing with using ES instead of BA is that if your trap "misses" a boss, you'll notice an immediate loss of DPS. It's absolutely mandatory you know exactly where the boss is going to be moved and where the trap will pop on his hitbox. From my experience it takes a few tries to get it right. I'd also advice in early stages of learning a fight to take some time placing the trap.

asdfman · 12/08/11, 4:18 AM

I'm looking for some kind of clarification on how exactly haste works for Survival.

I followed the general guideline of 757 haste rating > crit > mastery > more haste but femaledwarf seems to strongly disagree with this. By playing around with custom stat modifications I've ended up at exactly 1590 haste rating > crit > mastery for the maximum possible DPS for my character, clearly there's a several of these magical haste plateaus where I'm guessing you can fit in an extra cobra shot somewhere.

Everything feels like it lines up perfectly in-game and my DPS is higher than ever.

Could anyone shed some light on what changes at 1590 haste rating? Reducing/increasing haste results in gigantic dps losses, didn't look into finding a plateau above this since it's not obtainable with my gear.

Just to clarify, reforging from my current 1590 haste to 757 haste (into mastery) results in a ~300 dps loss.

coup321 · 12/12/11, 12:02 PM

My understanding is that FemaleDwarf overvalues haste, says this much in the faq. I noticed the same phenomenon as you when researching my stat allocations. I follow the same stat priorities as you first mentioned; Hit cap > haste to 758 > crit > mastery > haste. Based on FD, this brings me within 50 dps of putting haste over mastery.

Also, based on information calculated here SV Hunter Rotation Haste Plateaus | Warcraft Hunters Union, haste rating value changes once you can get to the second plateau of 2265 without sacrificing your other stats much. This plateau allows you to get 4 cobras in between each explosive shot.

I would hypothesize that your "real" dps will be lower if you sacrifice mastery (or crit) while above the 758 plateau and below the 2265 plateau.

Haste is overvalued in FD because its value diminishes the second you have to move in a fight, from my understanding. I am welcome to suggestions/corrections.

Dreambeard · 12/13/11, 4:52 AM

The T13 2-set bonus will lead to a drop in number of Cobra shots fired, so the haste plateau for fitting in 4 Cobra’s in between an ES is not really relevant I’d say? Or am I overlooking something here?

I was wondering though, has the value of Mastery not increased quite a bit with the T13 2-set bonus?