[Cataclysm] - Survival Hunter - Page 40

espallargas · 01/26/12, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by molson

With my guild starting H-Spine in the next week or 2, the focus of my preparation has been maximizing tendon DPS. With our mage going Arcane it allows me to switch to SV from BM, and my understanding for SV stat weights is that it's best to reforge out of as much haste as possible with 4pT13. Does that change on this fight? With a 20s burn phase, does the value of haste increase at all relative to mastery? It seems reducing the cast time of Cobra Shot as much as possible would result in both more focus, and more time to squeeze in an extra AS/ES, but I'm hoping someone who's done the fight may have more/better insight.

A bit off topic considering the thread, but I wanted to give some tips about Spine Heroic for hunters (not only SV) out there.

- All 3 specs are completely viable, as long as you min/max on every aspect of the burst.
- Use 5 ferocity pets for 5 Call of the Wild (I had to bring a Ravager full time so I couldn't do it). This is key for all specs if possible.
- Use [Kiroptyric Sigil], since it's a very nice burst and it will be up for every Tendon.
- BM: BW is up for every exposure
- MM: readiness is your best friend
- SV: a well timed trap proccing LnL for every exposure is key
- Use a macro like this:

/cleartarget
/target Burning Tend
/stopmacro [noexists]
[insert all CDs / uses / first ability here]

It is spammable and highly efficient (make sure you are close to the plate after the Nuclear Blast so you won't have targetting issues).

Also, I checked 25-men parses to see who did the most damage on each spec:

- MM: Lokores total damage: 6,616,772, used 5 pets (link)
- SV: Дэвилфраг total damage: 6,534,877 used 3 pets (link) / Saavik total damage: 6,458,992 used 4 pets (link)
- (my parse) BM: Timor total damage: 6,133,930, used a ravager without switching, which might be the possible 7% difference (link)

These are the numbers you should be aiming for (> 1 million per exposure). A lot of hunters did way less than this but there is no reason you shouldn't maximize damage by using the above tips. Also try to map EVERY GCD you willl cast for every exposure. Since it's a 20-second window, this is very easy to do and with practice it will increase your damage by a lot.

Also, not many people played BM for this, so we could possibly have seen better geared BM hunter parses with 5 pets (specially ferocity) doing as high as 6.4 / 6.5 million overall damage as well.

timoseewho · 01/26/12, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by molson

With my guild starting H-Spine in the next week or 2, the focus of my preparation has been maximizing tendon DPS. With our mage going Arcane it allows me to switch to SV from BM, and my understanding for SV stat weights is that it's best to reforge out of as much haste as possible with 4pT13. Does that change on this fight? With a 20s burn phase, does the value of haste increase at all relative to mastery? It seems reducing the cast time of Cobra Shot as much as possible would result in both more focus, and more time to squeeze in an extra AS/ES, but I'm hoping someone who's done the fight may have more/better insight.

I've managed to pull roughly around 1-1.2m on 10-man spine as survival (I'm sure the other specs are just as good, after having a glance over logs) and I favor crit/mast over haste with 4P. A few tips I have come up with are:
- Be focus capped going into Burning Tendons (via CoS on the dying amalgamations or corruptions)
- Drop ET's on top of the bloods while the amalgamations are dying to proc LnL (I can usually get 2 procs per lift)
- Have the [Kiroptyric Sigil] trinket (aka. 1650 VP trinket), macro it to CotW/RF/racials/potion/etc.
- Have 3 pets providing CotW, rotate them, the more the merrier
- Macro /tar boss2 /petattack
- Hold out on AS usage throughout the majority the fight to save the 4P proc (~105s ICD). However I stopped doing this because I noticed that using AS to help on grips and taking down the amalgamations in due time was more important
- Force [Kiril, Fury of Beasts] proc by having it unequipped and equipped ~50s or so before the Burning Tendons, for me this is usually when the amalgamations are ~60-70% HP, but don't expect to have the full 20s of this buff

NOTE: Don't be shy to test on target dummies, add /stopwatch play to your CD macro and just see how much you can pull in 19s.

molson · 01/26/12, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by espallargas

A bit off topic considering the thread, but I wanted to give some tips about Spine Heroic for hunters (not only SV) out there.

...

- SV: a well timed trap proccing LnL for every exposure is key

Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I attempted to revive the encounter specific thread for information on DS HM fights and received an infraction, so I thought I would try here for SV specific information on spine.

Re: traps proccing LnL, it's my understanding that the ICD on LnL has been removed, and with the hunter changes in 4.3.2 (most likely) going live next week, BA should have the same chance to proc LnL as an explosive trap. If that's the case, would BA then be better than an explosive trap? Consider that we can use Ice Trap right as the amalgamation dies to guarantee LnL is up as the tendon spawns. With Explosive Trap lasting 20 seconds, you would need flawless timing to have it up for the entire tendon phase, however you could potentially save the GCD of BA by using trap launcher and have the trap ticking right as the tendon comes up. I realize that latency/RNG probably keeps both scenarios close enough that it's personal preference, but I just want to make sure I'm squeezing out every bit of DPS that I can.

Grigorim · 01/26/12, 4:41 PM

Consider that we can use Ice Trap right as the amalgamation dies to guarantee LnL is up as the tendon spawns.

My understanding is that is the trap that Timor was referring to. Doesn't mean he wouldn't also use BA on the tendon.

and with the hunter changes in 4.3.2 (most likely) going live next week, BA should have the same chance to proc LnL as an explosive trap. If that's the case, would BA then be better than an explosive trap?

...that's only true on a single target. On multiple targets, explosive trap ticks significantly more than Black Arrow. So unless I'm missing something, it would be a question of either popping ET on bloods for greater LNL proc rate, or BA/ET for direct damage on the tendon (BA does more damage and you should get the same number of ticks, but ET launched costs less focus and can potentially save a GCD if you can work the timing out).

chuanetta · 01/27/12, 6:58 AM

HC Spine.
Another questions.

What about Hunters Mark(+- 1700AP) and serpent sting(+10%dmg)? Use this or save time for direct dmg spells?
My tip : dont use Mark and apply serpent sting.

espallargas · 01/27/12, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by chuanetta

HC Spine.
Another questions.

What about Hunters Mark(+- 1700AP) and serpent sting(+10%dmg)? Use this or save time for direct dmg spells?
My tip : dont use Mark and apply serpent sting.

For the exposure, Hunter's Mark is only worth if passively applied with Marked for Death (MM).

For the Sting, as BM with improved Serpent Sting, on an average per tick analysis (weighted average on hits and crits) vs. Arcane Shot it was worth to spend the GCD on the Sting, but only if you applied it right away (I was doing KC > Sting > Rotation) and refreshed it with CoS in the middle of the way (After BW was off). Also, after testing both, on average the 6 Sting ticks were a bit higher than the average Arcane Shot you would use instead. These will scale differently for Marksman or Survival, but you can stick with the same logic to figure out which ones you should be using.

Just as a reference for other specs, by checking the logs I posted above, Lokores (MM) and Дэвилфраг (SV) didn't use SrS and Saavik (SV) did use it (5 ticks).

Nostferatu · 01/28/12, 1:27 AM

Originally Posted by chuanetta

HC Spine.
Another questions.

What about Hunters Mark(+- 1700AP) and serpent sting(+10%dmg)? Use this or save time for direct dmg spells?
My tip : dont use Mark and apply serpent sting.

In SV spec, if your making a target macro for the Burning Tendon why wouldn't you add in the line: /cast hunter's Mark along with whatever else you want to use.?

That Phase is all about absolute burst over a specific time period. Putting HM in your macro costs no focus or extra GCD and is a DPS increase. Unless I'm missing something its a win win.

Grimmarg · 01/28/12, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nostferatu

In SV spec, if your making a target macro for the Burning Tendon why wouldn't you add in the line: /cast hunter's Mark along with whatever else you want to use.?

That Phase is all about absolute burst over a specific time period. Putting HM in your macro costs no focus or extra GCD and is a DPS increase. Unless I'm missing something its a win win.

Hunter's Mark isn't off the GCD, so it would be better to add Explosive Shot, Chimera Shot etc. to that macro. Even if it wasn't it would still be more effective to add either shot/attack to the macro instead of Hunter's Mark, because of lag, human error etc.

Nostferatu · 01/28/12, 8:45 AM

Originally Posted by Grimmarg

Hunter's Mark isn't off the GCD, so it would be better to add Explosive Shot, Chimera Shot etc. to that macro. Even if it wasn't it would still be more effective to add either shot/attack to the macro instead of Hunter's Mark, because of lag, human error etc.

The reason we use macros is to perform multi functions by pushing a single button or click and thus consume only one GCD in the performance of these multi functions .
In this case the idea is to get dps onto the tendon as fast as possible.
I'm not suggesting that HM is off the GCD at all or make a target macro with just HM in it. I was responding to the question posted by Chanetta weather to use HM or skip it and apply SrS.

Firstly HM is added to the target macro which would have other things in it like ES or AS or CS and could including RF a trinket ..etc etc... Whatever u want the macro to do.
Secondly by adding HM as i said , you don't have an extra GCD as a single GCD is used in the macro to fire ES, ( your shot) etc... Lag and human error do not come into play.
My Tendon target macro looks like:
/cleartarget
/target Burning Tend
/startattack
/Cast Hunter's Mark
/petattack
/cast explosive shot

pichuca · 01/28/12, 9:37 AM

If you add into one macro 2 spells that use 1 GCD each, the macro will only execute the first one the time you press it, trigger GCD, and do nothing more. You need a /castsequence macro

/cleartarget
/target Burning T
/petattack
/castsequence [nomod] reset=3 !Hunter's Mark,Explosive Shot

using your macro only puts HM on the target and does nothing more. This one puts HM and fires ExS pressing twice on it. but it uses TWO GCDs, there is no way to use 2 spells that use 1 GCD each on 1 GCD

LilM8 · 02/09/12, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by molson

Consider that we can use Ice Trap right as the amalgamation dies to guarantee LnL is up as the tendon spawns.

I did try this some time ago on the Corrupted Blood and my impression was that the blood is immune to Ice Traps and thus does not trigger LnL.
Do you mean it works on the Amalgamations or Corruptions?

edit: I did try this again in the LfR to make sure. All different mob types are immune to Ice Trap as well as Freezing Trap, so they do not trigger LnL.

Flexal · 02/09/12, 10:17 PM

There seems to be a rather large bug concerning Noxious Stings - Spell - World of Warcraft when 2 survival hunters are in the same raid. I originally saw this mentioned on the MMO-Champion forums so decided to test it on target dummies to confirm. The issue is that only 1 survival hunter can benefit from the 10% damage increase from Noxious Stings at one time and it is dependent on who manually cast the last serpent sting.

The following test was done with all gear unequipped and using Weathered Crossbow - Item - World of Warcraft for the least amount of variance possible. (numbers below only vary 1-2 damage)
Both using the following glyphs: Explosive, Kill Shot, Arcane. No pets or external buffs.

[Base]
[02:05:34.326] Flexal Auto Shot Training Dummy 1 (O: 644)
[02:05:34.445] Hunet Auto Shot Training Dummy 1 (O: 642)

[Flexal applies Sting]
[02:05:35.301] Flexal Improved Serpent Sting Training Dummy 1 (O: 1278)
[02:05:36.452] Flexal Auto Shot Training Dummy 1 (O: 709)
[02:05:36.751] Hunet Auto Shot Training Dummy 1 (O: 643)
[02:05:38.224] Flexal Serpent Sting Training Dummy 1 (O: 936)

[Hunet applies Sting while Flexal's sting is still active]
[02:06:39.324] Hunet Improved Serpent Sting Training Dummy *1* (O: 3832)
[02:06:39.857] Hunet Auto Shot Training Dummy 1 (O: 708)
[02:06:40.518] Flexal Auto Shot Training Dummy 1 (O: 645)
[02:06:40.944] Hunet Serpent Sting Training Dummy 1 (O: 935)
[02:06:41.251] Flexal Serpent Sting Training Dummy 1 (O: 851)

Cobra shot refreshing of sting has no effect on who gets the damage increase, it is only based on who applied the last manual sting.

Rivkah · 02/10/12, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Flexal

Cobra shot refreshing of sting has no effect on who gets the damage increase, it is only based on who applied the last manual sting.

That sounds like a fairly serious bug. It would also be worth testing if a non-SV hunter applies their sting after the SV hunter, would that also interfere with the benefit of noxious stings? Also, did you test if multishot applying the sting with serpent spread affected how it worked?

Melkunie · 02/10/12, 2:41 AM

Originally Posted by Flexal

There seems to be a rather large bug concerning Noxious Stings - Spell - World of Warcraft when 2 survival hunters are in the same raid.

I can verify this is indeed bugged. I was baffled last reset when i was outdps't by a worst geared hunter while using the same'ish distribution of spells but all his attacks, despite his lower RAP, hit a lot harder then mine.

Itzaic · 02/10/12, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

That sounds like a fairly serious bug. It would also be worth testing if a non-SV hunter applies their sting after the SV hunter, would that also interfere with the benefit of noxious stings? Also, did you test if multishot applying the sting with serpent spread affected how it worked?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Using a low level hunter as SV with noxious sting and my main hunter as MM, it had no effect on noxious sting applying to my SV hunter.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

In the case of multi-shot, it wouldn't apply the noxious sting damage increase unless the other hunter's manually applied sting duration was below the multi-shot's applied serpent sting.

Actually now that this has been brought up, I'm reminded of a situation back in Ulduar where SV was still the top raid spec. I couldn't figure out why the other hunter in my raid always had higher damaging shots despite us both being the same race, gear, pet, and spec. This would explain a lot, and how long it's been going on.