[Cataclysm] - Survival Hunter - Page 6

tarat · 12/18/10, 11:09 AM

please delete

Neruse · 12/18/10, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

Thank you for this macro, it's been helpful for my testing. My tests don't show it as being fixed, although without completely respeccing it's hard to be totally sure. A big limitation of our testing is the inability to tell exactly when the focus ticks happen (since focus does not seem to flow smoothly). I've been testing by only hitting the macro when I see the tick appear on my focus bar, so that hopefully it's always after the additional focus registers.

I also haven't been testing by using shots, but rather by swapping specs, which reduces your focus most of the way, then I just measure the time it takes to get to almost maxed focus and use the original and final focus in the math.

I have 1% haste from talents in my BM spec, and 3% in my SV spec, plus hunting party.

In BM I'm measuring between 4-4.03 fps. This is roughly in line with the expected 4.04fps that should be expected from 1% haste.
In SV I'm measuring about 3.74 fps. If hunting party was working properly, I'd expect to get 4.532 fps. Reducing focus regen by 10% instead of increasing it, then applying 3% haste comes out to 3.74 fps.

How odd. Naked, but switching between my SV specs (both have Pathfinding and HP) and I get 4-4.05 fps.

Rivkah · 12/18/10, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

How odd. Naked, but switching between my SV specs (both have Pathfinding and HP) and I get 4-4.05 fps.

I'm not sure why we're getting such different results, but I also had a DK with icy talons help me test just with my BM spec, and I was consistently getting between 3.65 and 3.73 fps with icy talons up. If windfury was giving us proper regen I'd be getting 4.444 regen, but with windfury reducing by 10% instead of increasing, the expected regen would be 3.6727 fps, which is consistent with the results I"m seeing. Regardless, even if you are getting 4 fps, that's lower than what it should be, as it should be increasing your regen by 10% (unless I see a blue post to the contrary, I'm assuming it should increase our focus regen like every other attack speed buff I've tested).

Neruse · 12/19/10, 12:46 AM

Most/virtually all buffs that increase ranged/melee attack speed (Rapid Fire and Heroism are good examples) also increase resource regen. Logically WF/HP/IT should do the same, but inconsistent results combined with a complete lack of clarity from Blizzard is rather aggravating.

Alright, I have some numbers that'll make your heads hurt:

SV spec w/ HP, naked + Pathing = ~4.04 fps.
0/0/0 spec, naked = ~4.03 fps.

SV spec w/ HP, 8.25% gear haste + Pathing = ~4.08 fps.
0/0/0 spec, 8.25% gear haste = ~4.34 fps.

BM spec, naked + Pathing = ~4.11 fps.
BM spec, 8.25% gear haste + Pathing = ~4.45 fps.

SV spec w/o HP, naked + Pathing = ~4.11 fps.
SV spec w/o HP, 8.25% gear haste + Pathing = ~4.44 fps.

HP is doing something, but looking at the naked SV w/ HP, it's not consistent.

(I only did 3 reps of each due to lack of time. I didn't have that large variation between each, but it was noticable sometimes. Larger sample size would iron this out).

Edit: More craziness.

0/0/0 spec, naked + WF totem = ~3.99 fps.
0/0/0 spec, 8.25% gear haste + WF totem = ~3.99 fps.

I have no idea why I'm flooring at ~4 fps yet you are not, Zeherah.

26thraider · 12/19/10, 12:54 PM

Might hve something to do with your old-old specs. What was your specs prior to 4.0? Or at least the specs relevant to the position now held by your current Survival specs.

Blues might have mentioned they fixed the reocurring old spec bugs, but with no specific mention on what they were, HP could be part of one such bug that hasn't been fixed.
I do remember back a while ago, regarding the Beta, some people did report below 4 fps with HP, and some that HP 'only' took them to 4 (but still reduced regeneration).

Personally I'm rather certain there has been no fix, Survival feel slower, if more fun, than MM, even without ISS running.
But with no word on the matter, we have no idea if the 10% attackspeed buff should or shouldn't increase resource regeneration. But it most certainly shouldn't reduce it.

Maybe it is time to whip out the bugreports again.

Dispiosan · 12/19/10, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by ninoffmaniak

1. Addressing serpent vs arcane if calculations are correct and 50 dps more from arcane glyph on perfect 1 target fight in most of fight you will keep serpent on more targets then one (or aoe with serpent spread).

Nefarian 2 targets
Cho'gall 2 targets
Ascendant Council 2 targets
Valiona and Theralion 2 targets on some part of fight
Halfus Wyrmbreaker 3-4 targets in same time depends of tactics you use
Maloriak green phase aoe
Magmaw adds if you chose to kill them (we just kite them to end of fight by frost dk)
Omnotron green adds aoe
Conclave of Wind adds aoe

So in only 3 fights arcane could prove better then serpent making serpent winner overall.

2. Thing i wont to discus is benefit of improved stady shot talent as survival.
For me with 4% haste with me with around 350 ilvl i never use arcane shots (my guild pop lust on start so even then i spam cobra 60% more crit and 1.1s cast time) so i think getting 15% haste is big dps incise with uptime i could have it would be around 11% effective haste.

I can stick 2 stedis and one cobra/ba/arcane in be-twine every explosive shot making solid uptime i would lost cobra shot damage because stedy hitting less and 3 talent points (1 from serpent spread and 2 of sic'em) but gaining atleast 11% haste.
i plan to have dual spec one with normal spec and one for single target dps with ISS.

3. survival tactics or hunter vs wild should be dropped for entrapment bellicose it is big help on kiting on Magmaw Maloriak and green adds on Omnotron.

Your SS and Arcane debate really only have merit for bosses who share life or AoE otherwise you're just padding your #s. Fights where you can sting two targets but you really need to focus max DPS on a single target makes your argument irrelevent. For example, Halfus Wyrmbreaker. While not particularly hard on normal mode you still want to focus all damage right away on bringing down that drake and not really padding numbers on the boss unless the enrage timer permits or your raid is brute forcing a boss. In an absolute min/max situation I think Arcane shot glyph gives you the most dmg exactly where you want it to tackle encounters. Again, outside the context of shared HP bosses and AoE.

As for Imp-ISS, I jsut don't buy into it. Even with ~11% applied haste, my Cobra hits for about 2k harder non-crits and 4-5k harder for crits than Steady. The difference in dmg between my steady's and Cobras is far more dmg than I gain from my additionally hasted auto shots. Nor is the extra haste enough to let me fire an extra CoS/Steady inbetween EXs. Focus is out of the debate since I'm usually fighting capping anyways. The dmg is greater w/o Imp-ISS, a gap that grows even further with gear from my observations.

Namarus · 12/19/10, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dispiosan

Your SS and Arcane debate really only have merit for bosses who share life or AoE otherwise you're just padding your #s. Fights where you can sting two targets but you really need to focus max DPS on a single target makes your argument irrelevent. For example, Halfus Wyrmbreaker. While not particularly hard on normal mode you still want to focus all damage right away on bringing down that drake and not really padding numbers on the boss unless the enrage timer permits or your raid is brute forcing a boss. In an absolute min/max situation I think Arcane shot glyph gives you the most dmg exactly where you want it to tackle encounters. Again, outside the context of shared HP bosses and AoE.

As for Imp-ISS, I jsut don't buy into it. Even with ~11% applied haste, my Cobra hits for about 2k harder non-crits and 4-5k harder for crits than Steady. The difference in dmg between my steady's and Cobras is far more dmg than I gain from my additionally hasted auto shots. Nor is the extra haste enough to let me fire an extra CoS/Steady inbetween EXs. Focus is out of the debate since I'm usually fighting capping anyways. The dmg is greater w/o Imp-ISS, a gap that grows even further with gear from my observations.

Totally disagree with you. In the halfus fight, switching to use multi-shot with serpent sting on the adds can help considerable, particularly when they are all tanked on top of each other like my guild does. When you are knocking the whelps down for example, serpent sting damage from multi-shot can really add up.

In fights such as these, you are trying to knock everything down to zero. You are not padding the meters but helping your raid by being efficient. If damaging all the adds and boss at the same time did not contribute to the fight, and only killing your single target did that, then you would have an argument. That is not, however, the case in the fight you mentioned.

Neruse · 12/19/10, 6:19 PM

Imp Steady Shot is not haste; it is merely increased attack speed. It does not increase base focus regen. Also, the 15% attack speed from ISS is not enough to allow SV to fit another Cobra shot into the rotation. Essentially, using ISS with a survival spec is giving up significant damage (Steady vs Cobra) for a mere 15% increase in autoshots.

Deghuran · 12/20/10, 2:20 AM

I'm still really confused about the secondary stats. In most forums (here, mmo, tka something etc) I have read crit > slightly better than mastery. But when I look at top hunters from Paragon (Kruf, Devai) or Ensidia (Calebv) I see, that they are stacking haste and mastery instead of crit. Has anybody an explanation for that? Any thoughts? I guess they have good reasons for doing that. So what do you think? I'm feeling really lost atm.

chucknourish · 12/20/10, 5:37 AM

If I check the fights I did so far and the amount of Arcane Shots I used, I really wonder why Glyph of Arcane Shot is valued higher than Glyph of Serpent Sting. In theory, I totally get the reason, but practically, you are going to glyph a shot that you will use the by far least out of all your "standard" skill set above something that will be on a target for ~100% of the time.

Boring · 12/20/10, 7:52 AM

What are your thoughts on the PVP glove bonus? -4 seconds to traps (including Black Arrow) might actually be worth the drop in combat rating. Femaledwarf currently does not reduce the cooldown of Black Arrow with the gloves on.

Also, anyone has a good macro for using traps with Trap Launcher? Tried both a /cast /cast and a /castsequence, but none of them seems to work the way I want them to.

Schniepel · 12/20/10, 10:29 AM

Regarding the fifth option of Lock and Load handling:

Originally Posted by Esoth

5. Explosive Shot spam, no wait
This gets you 7 ticks of explosive shot instead of a potential 9, but gets the Explosive Shot cooldown going more quickly than any other method.
DPS: (32700/3*7)/3 = 25433.33

I think we can agree that you only want to fire back-to-back Explosive shots if you are focus capped and there is no suitable filler available (i.e. Kill Shot, Black Arrow or possibly Multi Shot). Burning a LnL Charge on Arcane effectively wastes even more focus and Cobra is a DPS loss in this situation.
Considering this the most efficent use of the LnL would be ES > ES > AS > ES which is the fastest way to drop your focus while only clipping a single ES tick.

Conscience · 12/20/10, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Deghuran

I'm still really confused about the secondary stats. In most forums (here, mmo, tka something etc) I have read crit > slightly better than mastery. But when I look at top hunters from Paragon (Kruf, Devai) or Ensidia (Calebv) I see, that they are stacking haste and mastery instead of crit. Has anybody an explanation for that? Any thoughts? I guess they have good reasons for doing that. So what do you think? I'm feeling really lost atm.

Having thought about the issue, I came up with the following trivial thought:
Apparantly all combat ratings take up the same item budget, therefore you get more %Haste than %Crit/%Mastery. Yet, they all offer the exact same benefit. 1% Haste is exactly 1% more Autoshots, as well as 1% more focus regeneration (CS is cast 1% faster, too). So yellow and white damage go up 1%, exactly as they would if one had gotten 1% Crit instead. You even get 1% more Autoshot crits for GFTT. Only thing that doesn't go up by 1% is the Sic 'Em proc rate, because you aren't gonna cast more ExS. Yet, you'll cast more AS, so the proc rate will still be affected. (Also, I'm sure the value of Sic 'Em diminishes rather fast as gear goes up, anyways.)

Question left is why one would opt for Mastery over Crit, looking at how Crit affects all your damage, yet Mastery doesn't (and all the additional benefits of Crit).

edit: Oh. Of course you don't get 1% more yellow damage straight. ExS (maybe through LnL Proccs, though) and BA arent affected, because they are fired off CD anyways. You get 1% more damage from SS ticking faster and also 1% more AS, because all spare focus goes into AS.

edit2: What has to be taken into account here, is the value of a single point of focus. I'm not entirely sure atm, does the RAP coefficient of ExS (0.273) refer to the single ticks or the overall damage? If it's split over the three ticks, ExS is not very much behind AS (0.242) in scaling. Because AS has the better glyph, it might even come out ahead?
Man, I'm sorry for editing so often. I'm gonna work this out and do a nice clean post.

Sidis · 12/20/10, 6:01 PM

Because SV is constrained by explosive shot's 6s cooldown, haste will not behave exactly as you describe above. What you show would be true if all our shots were on a cast timer, since then we would be able to cast an additional number of shots over a certain period of time. Essentially the way I think about it is we have a 5 second window between explosive shots that we would like to fill as efficiently as possible. As we increase haste, there will be certain values where additional shots will fit into that window, but above and below that value the only benefit haste provides is increased passive focus regen and an increased number of autos.

dres · 12/20/10, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sidis

Because SV is constrained by explosive shot's 6s cooldown, haste will not behave exactly as you describe above. As we increase haste, there will be certain values where additional shots will fit into that window, but above and below that value the only benefit haste provides is increased passive focus regen and an increased number of autos.

Exactly, the only benefit i can think of, from stacking Haste, is to compensate the focus regen slowing from 10% attack speed buff, hence more Arcane Shot, which leads to more Thrill of the Hunt procs. Also, it makes pooling focus before target changing a bit easier.

Edit, Altarius in Vortex Pinnacle HC is a great place for extreme Haste test, with Upwind of Altairus - Spell - World of Warcraft. my Cobra Shot was at 0.82s. Once i got lucky, was in Upwind all the time, rarely had to move for cyclones also. But with the 6s ES CD limitation, I just wasn't able to do more than 20k overall with my gear setup. (with BoK, BoM, 5% crit, 549 agi). I probably could do more by spamming AS harder, wasn't prepared for high 100% + haste uptime, and those Thrill of the Hunt procs, but even with that much haste, the 6s window is just too tight.