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12/30/10, 7:07 AM
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#31
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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If we can come to a consensus about hard and fast rules, or general guidelines I'll be more than happy to add such a section, however, I think the issue you are mentioning (that some think its like enchants) isn't relevant for the valuation of whether it should be on there.
I feel that the stats section gives a pretty nice guideline to what stats you want, and therefore which ones you would rather be something else. I would therefore prefer that each person figures out the reforging via tools such as femaledwarf.com or the spreadsheet (when we had/have one), especially since its not a single point conversion and gear doesn't have the same amount, so mathing out what to reforge and what not to is in many ways too complex to get into in this post in my opinion.
That said, I disagree with the guideline you posted on 2 point: Hit/mastery gear I would reforge mastery to crit when below the hit cap, and hit to crit when above (unless doing so takes me below) as crit is far better than mastery at the currently obtainable gear levels. Hit/Haste gear would be haste to crit below hit cap, and hit to crit above - reforging haste to crit when above the hitcap requireds hit to be more valuable than haste when hit no longer does anything - or in other words, it would require haste to be detrimental and provide a negative dps value. These valuations are simply derived from the stat weightings in teh first post.
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12/30/10, 1:13 PM
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#32
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Banned
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Regarding the stat balancing, we really need to wait and see if BM mastery value gets adjusted in the coming class balancing patch. Once we see that on the PTR, we should be able to solidify what the priority should be. Since they are discussing boosting several shots, haste might become more vaiuable, or we may simply get a stronger KC. Time will tell.
Hopefully they will also fix the meta. I recently gemmed to get the meta (I needed the hit anyway) but getting that fixed will help. (And if they boost BM mastery enough, it might give us a few other gem options).
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12/30/10, 2:23 PM
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#33
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Von Kaiser
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Edit: Already found a answer for my question, Nevermind this post.
Last edited by Sepultura : 12/30/10 at 2:57 PM.
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12/31/10, 8:57 AM
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#34
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by fearstalker
Regarding the stat balancing, we really need to wait and see if BM mastery value gets adjusted in the coming class balancing patch. Once we see that on the PTR, we should be able to solidify what the priority should be. Since they are discussing boosting several shots, haste might become more vaiuable, or we may simply get a stronger KC. Time will tell.
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Aye. As for the first post, I will, of course, redo the stat valuations everytime there is a change that can skew them - I'll just have to wait for Rivkah to update the dps analyzer or in case of a spreadsheet appearing, wait for it to be updated.
For Mastery to overtake crit, will require a lot of fiddling though, from the simple perspective that mastery only affects pet damage output, and that is less than 50% of our total damage. At 50% damage, mastery has to be more than twice as valuable per rating to overtake crit - or, right now it would have to be more than 2% increase to pet damage per mastery point, compared to 1% increased chance to crit for the same amount of rating.
Last edited by Nooska : 12/31/10 at 8:57 AM.
Reason: typo
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12/31/10, 11:46 AM
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#35
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Glass Joe
Orc Death Knight
Talnivarr (EU)
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Edited by poster because the information was an annomally based on leveling gear set that would not have helped later in raiding enviroment due to the theory of the spec alteration from OPs spec not panning out.
Sorry for taking up your time.
Last edited by frostillicus : 12/31/10 at 5:26 PM.
Reason: edited to delete content.
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01/08/11, 9:13 AM
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#36
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Glass Joe
Tauren Hunter
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
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I'm not entirely sure why it is that you don't think we benefit as much from BW when in Rapid Fire (or other haste increases). BW is a pure damage increase, so from where I'm sitting: the more shots the better?
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01/08/11, 1:08 PM
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#37
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Hunter
Nathrezim
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So the only unique attribute we currently see on PTR is a 20% increase to kill command damage. Not quite the buff I was hoping for as this effects such a small portion of my overall damage.
Other notable items that will affect us as well as the whole hunter class are:
Kill shots attack power scaling has been increased by 50%
Pets now take 70% of the masters armor no matter the type.
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01/08/11, 1:24 PM
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#38
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by Tooran
I'm not entirely sure why it is that you don't think we benefit as much from BW when in Rapid Fire (or other haste increases). BW is a pure damage increase, so from where I'm sitting: the more shots the better?
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You have gotten my reasoning backwards. I am saying that we don't benefit so much form the haste effect when using BW. During BW we don't want to cast CoS, as BW in addition to amplifying our damage, halves the focus cost. During BW we will only get more autoshots from the haste effect, and that means that overall, it will be more damage to use BW when our CoS is on the longer cast time - regardless of when in a fight we use BW, we get 10 seconds of Autoshots with damage increase. Haste increases during BW increase the amount of autoshots getting this damage increase, but BW is only 10% damage increase for us. If on the other hand we don't pop BW during haste increases, but use the regular rotation, we gain the benefit of being able to put in additional Arcane Shots due to increased focus regen from both the haste effect and the faster casting CoS.
The DPS analyzer currently does not model this very well, becuase even though we can seperate RF and BW in the settings, we also don't want to use BW during BL (unless its a burn phase). Similarly we don't want to use RF during BL either - if we aren't losing a use of BW and/or RF over the course of the fight. If we lose a BW or a RF during the course of a fight by delaying, then we will, most likely, lose more damage output than we gain by using BW without haste effects.
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01/08/11, 2:59 PM
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#39
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Von Kaiser
Worgen Hunter
Silvermoon (EU)
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I'm not entirely sure why it is that you don't think we benefit as much from BW when in Rapid Fire (or other haste increases). BW is a pure damage increase, so from where I'm sitting: the more shots the better?
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If you want a short answer (Nooska just wrote the long version):
BW allows us to spam Arcanes like no tomorrow.
RF allows us to cast Cobras very quickly.
You can't both spam Arcanes AND cast Cobras.
So, if you use both at the same time, you're partly wasting one of the effects. Increased damage from BW doesn't compensate for this.
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01/08/11, 6:25 PM
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#40
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Hunter
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
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Thanks Nooska, fantastic guide.
I have *one* query though - in the section on rapid fire you say that under its' effects Cobra Shot begins to win over Arcane Shot in terms of DCPT, but I can't see how this is possible - all my parses show that Arcane does a good 15% more damage per cast than Cobra, which would mean that it would have to be casting (roughly) 15% faster than the GCD to achieve a greater DCPT.
I'm assuming I've missed something obvious but I've agonized and agonized and I can't see what it is, can you illuminate the reasoning behind this one?
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01/09/11, 7:02 AM
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#41
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by technophebe
Thanks Nooska, fantastic guide.
I have *one* query though - in the section on rapid fire you say that under its' effects Cobra Shot begins to win over Arcane Shot in terms of DCPT, but I can't see how this is possible - all my parses show that Arcane does a good 15% more damage per cast than Cobra, which would mean that it would have to be casting (roughly) 15% faster than the GCD to achieve a greater DCPT.
I'm assuming I've missed something obvious but I've agonized and agonized and I can't see what it is, can you illuminate the reasoning behind this one?
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You have actually caught something I have forgotten I have written, because thats what I show too. The statement is based on the scaling of the 2 shots, and it seems the scaling of Arcane has changed while I wasn't looking, during the beta there was a break point of 1.5 second casttime for CoS at 10k RAP. Arcane now scales at 4.2% RAP while Cobra scales at 1.7% RAP, so clearly Arcane now scales better (which is as it should be). Correction has been made. I didn't notices this til the DrDamage addon started working again (after I wrote the guide) so I just carried over the theorycraft we did on the betaforums for it.
Last edited by Nooska : 01/09/11 at 7:08 AM.
Reason: typos and added sentence
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01/09/11, 11:56 AM
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#42
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Hunter
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
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Great thanks for the swift reply there. I've come up with another query in the meantime however ^^
There still seems to be some disagreement in the wider online community about whether haste or mastery is stronger, so I wanted to throw my ten cents in here. This is deliberately rough theorycrafting, the model below is intended to be a demonstration of why haste is stronger, not a quantitive analysis of how much stronger. As you'll see though, the strength of the result seems to indicate that in this case, crude is good enough to prove the point:
My assumptions:
40% of our damage comes from our pet.
60% of our damage comes from non-instant cast abilites (the other 40% that I'm excluding here is made up of arcane shot, kill command and kill shot)
Given these assumptions, we can show roughly how much benefit we get per rating (not %) of mastery and haste:
For mastery: 0.4 * 0.017 / 180 = 0.0000378 (that's % of our total damage from pet * the 1.7% bonus to this per 1% mastery / number of rating needed for 1% mastery)
For haste: 0.6 * 0.01 / 128 = 0.0000469 (that's % of our damage from non-instant abilites * the 1% bonus to damage from these per 1% haste / number of rating needed for 1% haste)
The end figures themselves are pretty meaningless *except* in their ratio. As you can see you're looking at about 25% more benefit point for point from haste, and that's excluding the secondary benefit of more focus, which in this case we can exclude because it in fact strengthens the case for haste being stronger.
As I said above, the model is crude and the numbers being used are only approximations (though based on good, substantial parses of in game data) - but because of the sheer strength of the result we can be confident that even an advanced model will tell us the same thing (that haste is stronger), even if it gives a different result for exactly how much stronger haste is. You would expect an advanced model to differ no more than 20-25% from a crude one assuming both models are fundamentally unflawed, and in this case that is substantially less than the difference that would be needed to begin to make it arguable that mastery could be stronger.
I'd love some feedback on this, because from my point of view it's solidly conclusive but it's easy to miss something obvious when working on a very simplified model.
Last edited by technophebe : 01/09/11 at 12:16 PM.
Reason: clarity of argument
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01/09/11, 12:45 PM
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#43
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Hunter
Argent Dawn (EU)
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You are ignoring one very important constraint on haste in your crude model, which would be correct if not for this. We are not casting 40% of our damage, then 60% of our damage (I don't know if those figures are correct in a raid setting, but I'll agree to them to move along with the point). Haste is only valuable when it lets us do more.
Excluding autoshots, as haste benefits autoshots linearly, we only gain anything from casttime increase when it lets us add another shot, be that another arcane shot due to more focus regen (passive or active) or another cobra shot.
Over in the SV thread there is a pretty good discussion about haste value, keeping in mind that SV cannot consistently cast 1 AS per 6 second rotation, and have LnL to mess up their rotation a bit too, the optimum haste is where CoS is at 1.67 second cast, as that allows 3 CoS between ExS.
For us, since we will consistently have focus to cast an arcane shot every rotation, we have 1 less second to worry about. GCD takes our 6 second rotation to a 5 second void. AS then takes it to a 4 second void for CoS. At base casttime of 2 seconds we can do 2 CoS. We gain absolutely 0 benefit for haste (again excluding autoshots) untill we shave off
a) 1 second with enough focus gain for another arcane shot
b) X seconds, where X is the casttime of CoS, to fit in another CoS.
At any other time haste merely increases the rate of our autoshots and creates wait time. So haste is not very valuable untill it gets our CoS casttime to 1.33 seconds to allow 3 CoS. Currently a Goblin with FF active and the 10% hastebuff from another source (HP, WF, IT) needs 1800 haste rating to get to that point. In other words, we can only reach it under hase cooldowns, Bloodlust and Rapid Fire.
In the above I am ignoring that our haste translates directly to our pet and our pets damage as well, this is because while 1% haste increases the amount of pet auto attacks by 1% (thus a 1% damage increase) the same amount of rating (128.05701 rating for 1% haste) translates to 0.714 Mastery, or 1.2% pet damage increase for both ethe pets autoattacks, the pets basic attacks and Kill Command.
In summation, because of the CD restrictions of KC on our rotation haste is in practice meaningless to us compared to mastery.
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01/09/11, 1:48 PM
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#44
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Banned
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Originally Posted by Nooska
At any other time haste merely increases the rate of our autoshots and creates wait time. So haste is not very valuable untill it gets our CoS casttime to 1.33 seconds to allow 3 CoS. Currently a Goblin with FF active and the 10% hastebuff from another source (HP, WF, IT) needs 1800 haste rating to get to that point. In other words, we can only reach it under hase cooldowns, Bloodlust and Rapid Fire.
In the above I am ignoring that our haste translates directly to our pet and our pets damage as well, this is because while 1% haste increases the amount of pet auto attacks by 1% (thus a 1% damage increase) the same amount of rating (128.05701 rating for 1% haste) translates to 0.714 Mastery, or 1.2% pet damage increase for both ethe pets autoattacks, the pets basic attacks and Kill Command.
In summation, because of the CD restrictions of KC on our rotation haste is in practice meaningless to us compared to mastery.
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That is interesting, as it's running against a lot of the standards being set by certain bloggers. :-)
The other thing to consider is that the true value of haste comes in with ideal rotations, which often the game environment prevents (or lag, or bad fingers, etc.).
So while haste MIGHT have more value if you can get enough and get that extra shot it, in practice mastery looks like it could be the better real-world benefit.
(And with KC getting a buff, that benefit from mastery gets a bit better).
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01/09/11, 2:34 PM
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#45
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Hunter
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
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Thanks Nooska. Yes I can see that the simplified model isn't going to be good enough in this case.
However I would say that I'm not sure it's quite as open and shut for us as it might be for surv. hunters - the idea that we'll have enough focus to cast one arcane per 6s second rotation is erroneous - a quick go at the dummy shows that even reforged/gemmed/enchanted for max haste in the current best pre raid gear and talented/pet talented/glyphed for maximum focus efficiency and generation that I don't generate enough focus for that, I haven't done the calculation but I strongly suspect that even in current BiS gear, gearing for mastery you're not going to generate enough extra focus to make up the extra needed - it's quite a bit. That means more Cobra Shots which means more value for haste.
The other thing is that the 'perfect' 6s rotation is assuming that you can reforge every single last point of haste into mastery for a 2s cast of Cobra shot. Given that this isn't possible, we're dealing with a real world rotation with either a player pause or slightly longer than 6s between Kill Commands. At this point I think both arguments break down and it needs to be a full model.
Either way, thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm going to go look into the matter more deeply, will post back if I find anything interesting once it's properly modelled.
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