Isn't there another breakpoint at 1.5s, where you can fit an extra GCD into each rotation (though not an extra CoS)? It's hard to tell how much of a clear DPS gain that extra GCD is, but it's got to help somewhere, right?

I'm still not sure about bothering to adjust your rotation much for KC at all. FD shows very little gain for me over removing KC from my rotation completely. That's with a bunch of talent points and a prime glyph dedicated to it. Maybe as Mastery gets higher (despite reforging out of it at every turn) it will become a clear win over AS spam?

Is anyone seeing a significant (>1-2%) DPS drop in removing KC completely from their FD rotation? I'd probably still use it during BW.

KC on the PTR hits noticably hard and shouldn't be excluded. On live, you're right, it's not a massive difference. The damage per focus between the 2 is really close, even with BM getting 20%~ (depending on your mastery) more damage on KC than other specs. For surv & MM, arcanes might actually hit harder, even though they cost 15 less focus.

While AS and KC aren't greatly different in DPF, what matters over the course of a fight is DPS.
Using FemaleDwarf, taking the normal setup I use for theorycrafting (the stat derivation settings), and doing only 3 steps; 1) Remove KC from the priority list. 2) Remove KC from the "save focus for" and 3) disable CK as a "wait shot". I show a dps loss of 7.3%. That is significant.
In addition to FD tests, simple logic dictates that as long as KC is more DPS than AS, it will be worth using as long as CoS and AS are as close as they are by simple virtue of unloading that damage faster, thus giving you more time to fire more CoS or AS depending on your focus income.

On the breakpoint at 1.5 second casttime of CoS; yes it is there in theory, but haste enough for 1 more gcd does not give us focus enough for an additional AS per rotation (not enough extra focus regen through haste), and while it will be a marginal benefit in those rotations where you have enough fcus for another AS, the budget spent on getting you there would be better spent on crit or mastery, meaning the threshold exists, but is not worth going for.
If we want to talk about casttime, I think the one to aim for is the same as SV, 1.67 sec casttime so we can fit 3 CoS between each KC without delaying it, for those cases where we want to build up focus or are focus starved - but with FF, we should be there with the baked in and unavoidable haste, so not a point to look at or worry about.

Since we can now effectively say we will aquire a 10% base AP buff, as well as better AP scaling on our two most powerful shots (above the 10%), I see the agility spread (ratio of productivity compared to other stats) becoming even further skewed.


Beyond that, I was wondering your theories on reducing points out of Sic' EM for Pathing or ISS. I cant seem to come up with an accurate number for theorycrafting pet focus/ damage. Im a little bit concerned about the terminology of the word "ranged" as well in Pathing and was wondering if this means the effect is limited in scope compared to the base state we get from gear.

For pet choice outside of raids, the same rule applies. Look at whatother players are around you, and what buffs you have covered. A cat or a wolf will probably be the best buffs for your own dps apart from the shale spiders 5% stats - but the shale spider being a tenacity pet means its probably not a good choice if its to up your own performance. If you run with your guild, you can quickly get an overview of what buffs will most likely be and not be present, and have your 5 active pets chosen for that. If you solo run through the dungeon finder, have a bit of variety - and my personal recommendation is to have either a shale spider or a turtle as one of the 5 - whip it out if the tank dies and you can often save the day if the healer notices and starts healing the pet instead (just remember to have it specced for taunt).

Thanks for the reply Nooska. As BM id be going with Exotic pets I guess ? :-) Meaning ill take devilsaur / Spirit beast over cat / wolf.

Have you done any math on the agi/str vs crit buffs from pets?

Basically it comes down to 535 agility & str vs ~900 crit rating (5% crit). For personal DPS, agility wins, hands down. If you were in a group full of casters and no other melee/hunters, wolf would probably win for group DPS assuming all members are equal DPS, but don't forget the cat buff gives the tanks a significant amount of dodge & parry.

Personally, when I'm forced to pug 5 mans for my daily I'm usually miles ahead of everyone else in DPS, so I use the agility buff even if there's only casters.

I haven't seen any numbers either, but I would assume so. It only procs off of cobras & autos for both specs. BM hunters have a lil more haste with focus fire, but we still don't do a ton of attacks like the classes the trinket is usually good for. Rogues hit often with their fast weapons, instant attacks, love for haste & slice 'n dice. Enhance shamans do a lot of hits with their instants, flurry & windfury.

I think we would see moderately more procs from DMC: Hurricane, simply because BM fires more ArS (which can also proc it) along with the CoS and auto-shots.

The reason SV was interested (as with Enh sham) was because the proc was enhanced by their mastery..

It obviously depends on your raid. Frankly, I have found that in a 10 man virtually every buff your pets can bring is covered by another player. However, BM has it's own buff which is pretty nice. I have played SV since the early days of WotLK and have always enjoyed it. But my Raid Leader recently asked me to explore Beast Mastery because no one in my raid was providing the 3% damage buff brought by Ferocious Inspiration. My own personal loss in dps is more than made up by the overall increase in damage.

Since none of the changes in 4.0.6 impact BM hunters apart from buffs to KS and KC in addition to a general AP buff, I have updated the thread title without changing the content of the first post. No interactions or priorities ahev changed.