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Old 02/10/11, 5:39 PM   #76
the KRIS
Bald Bull
 
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Retired
Gnome Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Piestalker View Post
I have tested this yesterday, because we need a 4% phys. dmg. taken debuff substitute in our raids and it seems that Ravager's Ravage ability is still suffering from diminishing returns and so is not able to keep it up 100% of the time. The down time is about 30s every cycle actually.
It's worth posting as an FYI that this has been fixed in 4.0.6. The difference can clearly be seen on live Wowhead vs. archived Wowhead; note that "Mechanic - Stunned" has been removed on the live version. This will increase the viability of the Ravager as the source of the 4% physical vulnerability buff, as it should now have near-100% uptime barring pet movement kerfufflery.

Originally Posted by Theras View Post
I hope if my raid group fails to kill a world boss, I get a popup that says, "Good effort, Aurrius! You're still a winner in our eyes!" Then they can spawn some Tigule and Foror's Strawberry Ice Cream in my inventory, and a pint-sized Participation Trophy I can trade in for Valor Points.

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Old 02/11/11, 5:42 AM   #77
Pintofbrew
Hand Wind Only
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
Since none of the changes in 4.0.6 impact BM hunters apart from buffs to KS and KC in addition to a general AP buff, I have updated the thread title without changing the content of the first post. No interactions or priorities ahev changed.
A minor point, but given the buff to AS shouldn't Glyph of Arcane Shot be mandatory, rather than recomended?

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Old 02/11/11, 8:28 AM   #78
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
A minor point, but given the buff to AS shouldn't Glyph of Arcane Shot be mandatory, rather than recomended?
As you can see, there are no required or mandatory glyphs listed, but I did do checks of the 3 listed glyphs, and AS does indeed become a clear winner over RF and SrS glyphs in Zeherah's analyzer, and it has been moved up. This, however isn't due to the changes in 4.0.6 and has been true for a while. Good catch.

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Old 02/19/11, 7:58 AM   #79
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
With the hotfixed changes to AotH providing around 2k more RAP I will be going over the talent recommendations again, mostly to check how highly to rate OwN - it is no longer "optional" and will go to at least recommended if not required. OwN is increased in value by a not insignificant amount, going from 63.7 AP per point to at least 250 AP and likely more, depending on what the exact figure for AotH becomes, all I have seen so far confirmed is Blizzards statement ; "Aspect of the Hawk now provides around an additional 2000 attack power at level 85.". At a straight 2637 RAP OwN gives almost 1k RAP when fully talented after the 25% increase from Animal Handler.

Edit:
I have updated the OP to reflect the above ending up with a recommendation of "required" for OwN.I have also changed the sample build to follow my recommendations more closely. I have in addition to this run some more stat derivation tests on FD (though I am unsure how much AotH provides in these, a straight AP increase shouldn't shift around the other stats) both to update the comments on stats and also because of some discussion I was made aware of about haste outperforming crit and mastery. While haste does outperform mastery or crit at certain specific amounts where you hit a plateau allowing for another shot, haste is still the worst of the three secondary stats at any given point contributing very very little until the last point that takes you to the next level. I also feel compelled to remind readers that FD and all other calculators / simulations I have seen average haste rating value either on contribution to dps or based on adding or subtracting a given amount and recalculating. These averages are misleading as you only gain the average if you hit a specific point.
For BM the next plateau for haste to contribute meaningfully up from 0% haste is to get CoS to 1.33(...) casttime allowing for 1 more CoS per KC rotation which translates into 50% haste, or - assuming FF, the sample spec, and HP/WF buff, roughly 17.5% haste (~2229 rating) from gear. As you approach that amount you will see haste become more valuable on average in FD, but you won't gain the benefit untill you actually have the required amount of overall haste. In reality you gain some buffer from haste below that, but that buffer only increases your personal performance, and not the optimal performance that we talk about and theorycraft from.

Last edited by Nooska : 02/19/11 at 8:42 AM.

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Old 02/21/11, 9:06 PM   #80
TrevvyTrev
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Gilneas
Average haste values are only misleading to the extent that they project a benefit to the shot rotation that doesn't happen, and I'm not clear on why the haste discussion invariably seems to focus exclusively on whether you have enough to fit another cobra shot into a repeating rotation.

I agree that haste is unlikely to outperform crit using proper modeling. I don't think it is safe to write off the simulations that show haste outperforming mastery. Mastery only affects pet autoattack, pet basic attacks, and Kill Command. Haste clearly affects pet autoattacks, pet regen (through GftT, if not directly), hunter autoshots and hunter regen. These are significant, if not overwhelming, sources of damage.

Haste also less clearly (by which I mean that it is more difficult to model) affects Careful Aim -- even if you don't have enough haste to add a Cobra to your overall rotation, you might still have enough to fit in a Cobra before the target drops below 80% -- and Wild Hunt -- even a small gain to pet focus can push a pet to use a special at 51 focus instead of 48, for example. Haste also is more efficient on a point-to-percentage basis. It only takes 128 haste rating to increase pet autoattack damage by 1%, but to have the same effect via mastery it takes 179 mastery rating.

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Old 02/22/11, 6:28 AM   #81
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev View Post
Haste also is more efficient on a point-to-percentage basis. It only takes 128 haste rating to increase pet autoattack damage by 1%, but to have the same effect via mastery it takes 179 mastery rating.
Looking solely at pet autoattack damage Mastery v Haste. On gear all rating points are equal value. It takes 128.05701 rating points for 1% of haste, and it takes 179.28 rating points to gain 1 masterypoint, which is 1.7% damage increase. Or, it takes 128 rating points to gaing 1% pet autoattack damage via haste, and it takes 105 rating points to gaing 1% pet autoatack damage via mastery, or to make them equal, 1% pet autoattack increase via haste is equal to 1.2% damage increase via mastery.
Looking at the other effects, 1% haste means 1% more damage from hunter autoshots, 1% more base focus regeneration for the hunter and 1% more base focus regeneration for the pet. Apart from this haste also gives a stepped benefit to Cobra Shot - stepped as in the benefit only arrives at thos amounts of haste where it allows another CoS cast to be an overall increase in output (even when pushing Kill Command), so the benefit does arrive a bit earlier than a clean 1 additional CoS.
Mastery increase benefits pet basic attacks and Kill Command in addition to autoattack, so for haste you are trading 1% pet autoattack damage + 1% autoshotdamage + 1% base focus gain for both hunter and pet for 1.2% pet autoattack damage + 1.2% pet basic attack damage + 1.2% Kill Command damage.

To try to draw a conclusion out of that, I am not saying haste is bad, I am saying that; at a given, nonspecific point, mastery is the better choice of the 2. Referring back to the OP, currently mastery outperforms haste gains in the various replacements I've tinkered with 3:2 - mastery is by no means the strongest secondary (crit is) - and 3:2 reanslates into 1.2 dps benefit to 0.8 dps benefit (or similar amounts depending on ap and crit). NB!, I am not talking about the calculated or projected gains, I am talking of actually replacing X Mastery with X haste or vice versa. The gained benefit takes into account the haste you have on your current gear and all the benefits you have gained from it so far, most importantly any plateaus you have already reached (and passed) for amounts of shots. The projected gains should be less misleading, but in reality I have found that to not be the case when you switch stats (they are very accurate if you simply add X rating, but not if you switch X rating).

The focus on fitting in another cobra shot is, for my part, because that is the point where haste outperforms mastery - when gaining enough haste to consistently fit in another CoS in a rotation the net gain from teh additional cobra shot will consistently outperform the similar mastery. This agian leads to haste being largely ignored for BM, because we start out at 2 second cast which is perfect for 2 cobras in a rotation.
I am not dismissing haste, haste helps, and we get enough born in on gear and through FF that we don't have to worry about reforging to haste or gemming for haste except possibly with the 4t11 bonus where we might need ~100 haste rating to fit in another CoS if we have reforged haste to crit or mastery wherever possilble, at which point it is definately the priority over mastery, and even crit (though I would chose to forego mastery over crit).
The main thing with haste in my opinion is that it is subjectively deceptive - more haste lets you pull of your rotation with greater ease - which will significantly increase a players output (moreso the less perfect the players reactions are) significantly more than mastery or crit, but its is a very subjective thing, and cannot reasonably be suggested IMO.
Thinking about it, I am inclined to add a caveat to haste rating noting this, so players that will see this benefit don't feel like bad players for choosing to reforge contrary to the indications - in the same way that the previous BM thread noted Rowan's Rifle as a very good ilvl 251 ranged for BM, regardless of itemization being bad, I'm just not sure how to word it right now.

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Old 02/22/11, 11:49 AM   #82
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
FYI - As of just now (post rolling restart), AotH is providing me a total of 1036 AP (with 3/3 OwN), rather less than I was expecting with the announced changes. Possible the changes didn't come in with this restart after all.

Last edited by Wrathblood : 02/22/11 at 11:57 AM.

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Old 02/22/11, 3:12 PM   #83
Vaeryn
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Looks like it's around 200 additional ap. AotH without buffs was 637 so: 637 * 1,3 + 200 = 1028,1. Pretty close to your result.

Last edited by Vaeryn : 02/22/11 at 3:20 PM.

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Old 02/22/11, 3:45 PM   #84
Mavendreas
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Perenolde
You guys are calculating the extra 25% bonus AP that the BM spec gets. The fix isn't in yet.

If it is in fact 200 bonus AP then you will see hawk giving around 1360 ap. But I imagine they would have changed the hotfix post by now if it was a small typo.

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Old 02/22/11, 9:47 PM   #85
TrevvyTrev
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
To try to draw a conclusion out of that, I am not saying haste is bad, I am saying that; at a given, nonspecific point, mastery is the better choice of the 2.
This is the part that is confusing. For a lot of people, myself included, haste always projects to be more damage than mastery. I am not talking about calculating the benefit of reforging, but simply looking at the projected stat ratings and the actual simulated dps changes that come from adding X haste vs. X mastery. As near as I can tell, our theorycrafting tools show that at a given, nonspecific point, haste is better than mastery.

According to femaledwarf.com (which is an online version of our tried and true spreadsheet, unless I'm mistaken), with zero buffs/debuffs using a haste elixir results in 13,746.84 dps. Using a mastery elixir shows 13,730.35 dps. That's not much of a difference, but it favors haste. Using all raid debuffs/buffs except for flasks, haste elixir gives 19,291.12 dps and mastery gives 19,134.61. Other people have been getting similar results, or else we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place.

The problem is that at various points, on FD.com haste projects ahead of mastery, which always is dead last in dps per budget, if nothing else. That also would suggest that if you're adding a new piece of gear with mastery on it, reforging the mastery into haste (assuming crit already is on it) should make that item more powerful than if you didn't reforge it. If what you're saying is that in real world testing, adding mastery always results in more damage, then it means our theorycrafting tools are flat out wrong (including the projections, which you said should be more accurate) and we need to figure out how to fix them.

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Old 02/22/11, 11:28 PM   #86
fearstalker
Banned
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev View Post
If what you're saying is that in real world testing, adding mastery always results in more damage, then it means our theorycrafting tools are flat out wrong (including the projections, which you said should be more accurate) and we need to figure out how to fix them.
I think the problem is simply with the nature of haste. It has two key characteristics. First, it has plateaus, which the current tools don't necessarily calculate for (please correct me Z if I am mistaken). Second, in the real world, one stutter, one hop to get out of the fire, can negate all that haste when the goal is to get enough to get in that extra Cobra shot. It can also be effected by interrupts or other haste benefits we sometimes get that can't be modeled for. With mastery the problem is it's only helping us if our pet is on the target, but if the pet is on the target, we have that benefit.

So, for real-world usage, unless it's optimizing for specific boss fights, I'm not going to avoid haste, but I'm certainly not going to reforge all my mastery into it either.

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Old 02/23/11, 2:22 AM   #87
Ladonna
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Looking at Hawk earlier today it was only giving me 1036 per the tooltip and after doing some simple math that was confirmed as accurate after looking at my character stat sheet. I logged in later this evening and saw the tooltip then said 2000 AP. Switching back and forth from BM to Surv and vice versus though does not change the tooltip, but it does change the stats correctly.

AP in Surv with AotH: 11540
AP in Surv w/o AotH: 9540

Difference of 2k as stated in tooltip.

AP in BM with AotH: 13926
AP in BM w/o AotH: 10676

Difference of 3250, but the tooltip says 2600.

Not sure if this helps anyone, but just the observation I have made so far.

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Old 02/23/11, 3:06 AM   #88
Zerlu
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Hunter
 
Hellscream
2600 means the tooltip is accounting for One with Naure, but that its not accounting for Animal Handler. The character sheet values are correct though.

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Old 02/23/11, 3:19 AM   #89
chuanetta
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Drak'thul (EU)
AoTH = 2000AP
OwN = AoTH * 1.1 or 1.2. or 1.3 = 2000 * 1.1 or 1.2 or 1.3 = 2200 or 2400 or 2600
In BM spec u have Animal Handler = previou result * 1.25 = 2600 * 1.25 = 3250

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Old 02/23/11, 5:42 AM   #90
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
To put in a last few words on the haste/mastery debate;
I am not looking at realworld testing (though my personal experience agrees with the theorycraft) , I am looking at the tools, specifically FD, and while it does show haste ahead of mastery for most gear setups I have tried, manually switching out mastery for haste (custom stats) has consistently been a dps loss except where it has added in another shot. FD allows for a single shot addition over a fight, I claim that haste will hardly ever have that effect in real life because we go by a rotation and cannot adjust our rotation fast enough to decide to push in 1 more shot here and delay KC by 0.6 seconds (arbitrary number here) because it will aloow one more shot worth of damage output. Humans just don't work that fast (and the reality is we never know exactly how long a fight will be) but FD does work in that extra shot, thus utilizing the extra miniscule haste benefits. While I don't think we should allow for differing skill levels in the advice (my previous point) I also don't think we serve anyone by assuming inhuman calculation and adaptation.

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