[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide - Page 12

Shadowwaltz · 02/10/11, 9:01 PM

Really helpful, thanks. So your suggestion is to hit the minimum haste to make that 5SS + AI possible, and then use extra Haste to try and squeeze in shots? I understand that, as encounters change (more movement, target switching) the value of the secondary-stats changes but I'm more interested in coming up with a minimum we can put Haste at for this Marksman rotation (similar to the plateau we had for Survival) -- it seems this is 4.4% from gear with 3/3 Pathing and 4-set t11, though I'm unsure as to what this equates to in pure rating.

Yeah, pretty much. There were some numbers on it a couple pages back if you wanna dig through it.

I went Agil > Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery. Once you you reached a plateau, you can reforge that extra haste into mastery.

This statement is very false and misleading. While it is true that if you pick certain end haste points and you plot a line from the start point to the finish it may show an increase in DPS (but it may show a descrease) as you say. However, that is very misleading since there are actually peaks and valleys where adding haste sometimes helps and sometimes hurts.

This table clearly illustrates that DPS does not increase linearly with gear for all haste trade off with other stats. If I could reforge more haste, I really do not get much of a benefit for the first 550 or so haste I reforge, where the maximum increase with the steps is 37 total DPS. Which I am fine without, especially considering that on movement fights where I can do less AIs that the value of that additional haste is worth a heck of a lot less.

Around 600 haste rating, there is a nice DPS increase since I was able to cast 1 extra AI over the full 5 min duration of the fight, but shortly after that point, DPS decreases with more additional haste.

At 1649 haste rating added, I actually lose 83 DPS.

Thus, in summary, always blindly adding haste is not always a DPS increase. While it is true that adding the right amounts of haste can be a nice DPS boost, just adding haste indiscriminately may or may not be.

Let's say you get that 600 haste for the DPS increase. Then let's say you get a couple upgrades so you have 700 haste. If you do exactly the same rotation as before when you had 600 haste, only with 100 extra haste rating increasing the frequency of your auto shots, how is that a DPS loss?

Obviously, turning that haste into crit or maybe mastery might be an increase because its value is better than haste at those levels, but that's not what I meant. Haste itself can never decrease your DPS.

SpartanKillian · 02/10/11, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

Yeah, pretty much. There were some numbers on it a couple pages back if you wanna dig through it.

I went Agil > Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery. Once you you reached a plateau, you can reforge that extra haste into mastery.

Let's say you get that 600 haste for the DPS increase. Then let's say you get a couple upgrades so you have 700 haste. If you do exactly the same rotation as before when you had 600 haste, only with 100 extra haste rating increasing the frequency of your auto shots, how is that a DPS loss?

Obviously, turning that haste into crit or maybe mastery might be an increase because its value is better than haste at those levels, but that's not what I meant. Haste itself can never decrease your DPS.

You also need to account for the potential reforged value of the newly-acquired +100 haste.

Geff · 02/10/11, 11:13 PM

Anyone notice aimedshot costing more than 50 focus? many times ive been focus capped and i notice casting aimedshot brings me to 45 focus, it is rather annoying

edit: also while casting aimedshot and my focus bar reached full before it completes, puts me to 45 :/

Whitefyst · 02/11/11, 1:22 AM

Originally Posted by Geff

Anyone notice aimedshot costing more than 50 focus? many times ive been focus capped and i notice casting aimedshot brings me to 45 focus, it is rather annoying

edit: also while casting aimedshot and my focus bar reached full before it completes, puts me to 45 :/

This may be due to the following bug:

An apparent last-minute bug which was not found on the PTR before the patch was finalized has caused the client and server to disagree on the way haste affects resource generation. This bug will manifest itself in the UI showing a player they have enough resources to use an ability, but the server correctly prevents it as they in fact do not. A death knight for example might see a rune light up that isn’t actually available so when they use the ability, it won’t fire. A rogue may think they have enough energy to use Sinister Strike, but they can’t actually afford it so when they push the button, they will get an error. This bug could affect rogues, death knights, hunters and Feral druids, because these characters all gain more resources from haste. It will also affect buffs that affect attack speed, such as Slice and Dice, Windfury, Icy Talons, and Hunting Party, but also attack speed lowering effects like Thunder Clap. We're currently working on a fix.

An update to the post is:

Haste is again properly increasing resource regeneration rates for applicable melee classes. This fix will require a realm restart to take effect. More information regarding the series of changes pertaining to this issue can be found on our General Discussion forum.

@Shadowwaltz

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Obviously, if you can add more haste or more of any other stat without costing other stats, it will be a DPS increase. Even if haste only helps your autoshot attack speed, it is still a DPS increase. My point was that for a fixed ilevel of gear, obtaining more haste is not free since you have to sacrifice other stats. Depending on the relative benefit of each stat for the next point added or removed, adding haste can be a loss.

♦ Tobin · 02/11/11, 2:23 AM

Originally Posted by Alkii

I find it quite intriguing that the player in question here is also forging a good chunk of his Haste into Mastery. Three of his pieces are showing as such. Checking today's WoL (as of this post), we see that the top 2 ranked EU players (Rogerbrown, Yukizz) and the top US ranked player (Ivaldi) are all doing this. One has to wonder why they're choosing to reforge Haste to Mastery instead of the other way around.

Here's a direct comparison of my Chimaeron damage breakdown and Ivaldi's: CompareBot Link

A couple of observations...

- I do not have the 4pc T11 bonus.
- It looks like Ivaldi used all of his cooldowns before the 20% burn phase.
- He is spec'd 8/31/2 vs my 7/31/3
- Ivaldi is using Glyph of Kill Shot whereas I am using Glyph Rapid Fire
- I fired 52 Aimed Shots compared to his 38
- I delayed my Chimera until SrS was about to fall off. It looks like he was using Chimera on cooldown.
- Our crit rates were similar, as was the fight duration
- I lose considerably more damage to Caustic Slime misses than he does.
- And the key here...Mastery netted him just 100K more Wild Quiver damage.
- He used 3 Raptor Strikes for damage reduction during Feud. I didn't bother.
- Neither of us met an untimely end.

baklava · 02/11/11, 2:37 AM

Originally Posted by Geff

Anyone notice aimedshot costing more than 50 focus? many times ive been focus capped and i notice casting aimedshot brings me to 45 focus, it is rather annoying

edit: also while casting aimedshot and my focus bar reached full before it completes, puts me to 45 :/

Confirmed, I had the same problem last night while using Rapid Fire. I believe this is a bug.

♦ Tobin · 02/11/11, 3:35 AM

Originally Posted by Rogerbrown

*Not sure if everyone is aware of this issue but if you are casting an Aimed Shot while your !Aimed Shot procs, then your cast Aimed Shot doesn't consume any focus as well, so you do 2 aimed shots for 0 focus cost, thus letting you cast a third one right after.

When not under temporary haste buffs, your cast sequence will look like this:

~2s -- Aimed Shot-Aimed Shot! -- 1s GCD -- ~2s -- Aimed Shot

At least I think there is a GCD in between from the instant. This results in a >5s shot sequence for most hunters. By the time you are done If you've done steadies in pairs, you should have just enough time to squeeze in two Steady Shots before ISS falls off. It's times like these where I wish odd-numbered Steady Shots didn't eat into ISS uptime.

Shadowwaltz · 02/11/11, 6:05 AM

Originally Posted by SpartanKillian

You also need to account for the potential reforged value of the newly-acquired +100 haste.

Read the last line of my post.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Obviously, if you can add more haste or more of any other stat without costing other stats, it will be a DPS increase. Even if haste only helps your autoshot attack speed, it is still a DPS increase. My point was that for a fixed ilevel of gear, obtaining more haste is not free since you have to sacrifice other stats. Depending on the relative benefit of each stat for the next point added or removed, adding haste can be a loss.

We're on the same page then. I just wanted to throw that out there so people reading wouldn't get the wrong idea.

Anyone notice aimedshot costing more than 50 focus? many times ive been focus capped and i notice casting aimedshot brings me to 45 focus, it is rather annoying

edit: also while casting aimedshot and my focus bar reached full before it completes, puts me to 45 :/

It's a confirmed bug that has to do with haste and focus display. During Rapid Fire is probably when you will notice it the most. Rogues and DK's have the same problem. If you read MMO-Champion, there was a blue post that said they tried a hotfix the other day, but introduced a new bug with that hotfix, and won't be able to fully fix this until the next server restart, or something like that.

SpartanKillian · 02/11/11, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by baklava

Confirmed, I had the same problem last night while using Rapid Fire. I believe this is a bug.

Were either/both of you glyphed for Aimed Shot? That sounds an awful lot like the value for the glyph got inverted.

Kurgosh · 02/11/11, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Zargouhl

Probably because they found the exact haste amount needed to comfortably get in 2 AiS between each CS. After that's feasible haste doesn't really have anymore value.

It may not have theoretical value. And indeed, for players at that level (where their performance approaches theoretical limits of efficiency), it may not have significant value at all. But 'extra' haste does create a more forgiving rotation. ISS comes back up faster if I screw up and let it drop off. Focus regen is that much faster. Less time I have to stand still to finish that aimed shot if I have to move for mechanics. So the practical value of haste may be higher for players in the range from average to very good, dropping off for the real elite.

aijlad · 02/11/11, 3:55 PM

I was also finding it difficult or at times impossible to maintain 2 SS and then either AiS or CS depending on if SrS needed refreshed when not under dynamic haste effects. I have 909 haste rating and 3/3 in Pathing and I do NOT have the 4 piece T11 bonus yet.

Most of the time what would happen is by the time I fired off Chimera it would hit a fraction of a second too late and SrS would drop forcing me to waste a GCD just to get SrS back up which is obviously a DPS loss. My latency is pretty low compared to most (32ms) so I'm not entirely sure what the issue was. Perhaps I'm just not spamming my keys fast enough? Or do I need to reforge for more haste to reduce my SS cast time and increase focus regen?

Perhaps I misread something and this is only supposed to happen while under dynamic haste effects. But I found I had to add in a 3rd Steady Shot between Aimed or Chimera Shots at times in order to get enough focus to fire either Aimed Shot or Chimera Shot.

Basically I ended up with something like:

CS - SS - SS - AiS - SS - SS - SS - AiS - SS - SS

By that point I would have about .4 seconds to get off Chimera Shot before SrS falls off which is pretty difficult and almost impossible if you aren't standing in melee range of the target.

exnihilo · 02/11/11, 5:26 PM

I just wanted to chime in on the issue of delaying chimera shot until serpent sting is about to fall off.

It seems to me (based on napkin math) that this is a DPE tradeoff that should be based on incoming energy generation rate, and thus haste and haste effects.

This is all based on the information on shot damage contained in Simulationcraft Results

If we normalize the damage per execute and damage per resource for aimed shot to the non-careful aim value (seems to be 35% based on simcraft numbers) we get...

DPE: 44827 (54240 including piercing shots)

DPR (assuming 48.25 average cost outside careful aim): 929 (1124)

And for steady shot:

DPE: 7668 (9278 including piercing shots)

Using the quoted values for chimera shot:

DPE: 34544 (41798 including piercing shots)

DPR: 786 (950)

And wild quiver:

DPE: 7395

If we assume as a starting case a hunter with no haste on gear, 10% haste from raid buffs, 3% from pathing and 15% from improved steady shot: 1.03 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 1.3

Thus aimed shot would have a cast time of 2.23 seconds, and steady shot would have a cast time of 1.54 seconds.

This gives aimed shot an effective DPET of 20102.

Given that there is an execution time difference between aimed shot and chimera shot, we should examine what we are using the excess time for. I believe in general this will be steady shot. By rolling a partial steady shot into the comparison, we can gain a little more insight into the true comparison.

If we include the damage from wild quiver (assuming about 20% chance to proc) and the ready, aim, fire proc, we end up with:

9278 + 0.2 * 7395 + 0.6 * 0.2 * 54240 = 17265 DPE, all things considered.

if we normalize this over the time delta between aimed shot and chimera shot, you end up with 13812 damage per partial execution.

Adding this to our chimera shot values gives an equivalent combined damage per execution of 55610 and a equivalent combined damage per energy of 1511.

So, in the 0 haste from gear case, we end up with the steady shot, chimera shot combo being roughly a 2.5% dps increase, with a much better damage per energy. As haste from gear increases, the damage per second increase will grow slowly, peak, then decline (with ridiculous levels of haste) while the damage per energy declines fairly rapidly until it is lower than that of aimed shot.

Of course this must be considered in terms of the rotation used as well. I would expect that the 4pcT11 would shift the curves to the right somewhat, supporting frequent chimera shots with slightly higher levels of haste. Termination would probably also encourage frequent chimera shot usage given the usefulness of a rapid focus dump. This leads me to believe that if termination is taken, chimera shot should be used on cooldown in termination range, and as a quick focus dump if needed or to refresh serpent sting at other times, depending on haste from gear. This is of course just a guess and further analysis will need to be done to flesh it out.

pincus · 02/11/11, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by aijlad

I was also finding it difficult or at times impossible to maintain 2 SS and then either AiS or CS depending on if SrS needed refreshed when not under dynamic haste effects. I have 909 haste rating and 3/3 in Pathing and I do NOT have the 4 piece T11 bonus yet.

Most of the time what would happen is by the time I fired off Chimera it would hit a fraction of a second too late and SrS would drop forcing me to waste a GCD just to get SrS back up which is obviously a DPS loss. My latency is pretty low compared to most (32ms) so I'm not entirely sure what the issue was. Perhaps I'm just not spamming my keys fast enough? Or do I need to reforge for more haste to reduce my SS cast time and increase focus regen?

Perhaps I misread something and this is only supposed to happen while under dynamic haste effects. But I found I had to add in a 3rd Steady Shot between Aimed or Chimera Shots at times in order to get enough focus to fire either Aimed Shot or Chimera Shot.

Basically I ended up with something like:

CS - SS - SS - AiS - SS - SS - SS - AiS - SS - SS

By that point I would have about .4 seconds to get off Chimera Shot before SrS falls off which is pretty difficult and almost impossible if you aren't standing in melee range of the target.

It seems like it could be very beneficial in this instance to sub a CrS for the third SS giving you another 6 sec of leeway to get off CS.

Whitefyst · 02/11/11, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by aijlad

I was also finding it difficult or at times impossible to maintain 2 SS and then either AiS or CS depending on if SrS needed refreshed when not under dynamic haste effects. I have 909 haste rating and 3/3 in Pathing and I do NOT have the 4 piece T11 bonus yet.

Most of the time what would happen is by the time I fired off Chimera it would hit a fraction of a second too late and SrS would drop forcing me to waste a GCD just to get SrS back up which is obviously a DPS loss. My latency is pretty low compared to most (32ms) so I'm not entirely sure what the issue was. Perhaps I'm just not spamming my keys fast enough? Or do I need to reforge for more haste to reduce my SS cast time and increase focus regen?

Perhaps I misread something and this is only supposed to happen while under dynamic haste effects. But I found I had to add in a 3rd Steady Shot between Aimed or Chimera Shots at times in order to get enough focus to fire either Aimed Shot or Chimera Shot.

Basically I ended up with something like:

CS - SS - SS - AiS - SS - SS - SS - AiS - SS - SS

By that point I would have about .4 seconds to get off Chimera Shot before SrS falls off which is pretty difficult and almost impossible if you aren't standing in melee range of the target.

Not accounting for latency of reaction times, the amount of haste required to do that rotation and refresh SrS without the 4-set bonus is:

15s - 1s (for CS) = 14s = 6 * 2 / 1.15 / 1.1 / x + 2 * 2.9 / 1.15 / 1.1

14x = 9.486 + 4.585 = 14.071
x = 1.005 which means 0.5% haste is required from gear and Pathing, which you have way over

This leads me to thinking that your problem is probably that this was not a raid situation but testing on a target dummy where the 10% raid buff is not present. In that situation, 10.56% haste from gear and Pathing is required. With 3/3 Pathing, 7.34% haste or 939 from gear is required. This is just a little greater than the 909 that you have, accounting for why you are probably just late. If this is indeed the case, please remember that you cannot accurately test shot timings with missing standard haste buffs.

Furthermore, MM really does not have a set rotation that is one size fits all. Its more of shot priority that ends up working out as certain rotations under certain conditions. It is true that with the right amount of static haste that you can get more optimal rotations from the priority. So these rotations listed are ones that people have found to work well for them that you may or may not be able to support with your gear. Even if you can support certain rotations at certain times, you will need to adjust it under dynamic haste effects. Thus, if a rotation that someone else has is not working for you, either adjust your haste so it does or use a rotation that better fits your situation and falls out of the priorities.

I plan to have the guide complete with the rotation section updated within the next 24 hours. I am working on it piece by piece as I have the time and can analyze others' insights.

Treal · 02/11/11, 7:53 PM

Why is it that CS is still at the beginning of the rotation? I could understand when CS was our high damage shot, but now it is used only to refresh SrS as a substitute to CrS. I realize that putting it on either ends up with the same results once the rotation is underway. But the way the it's written now seems to indicate that CS is a priority, not a refresher.