[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide - Page 18

Darklumiya · 02/26/11, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Anyway, when I get to that part of the guide to update, I will make sure to point out that in general we are at the tipping point and that one case may be a little better than the other for some folks and that it is up to the individual to decide for their setup and playstyle which focus dump (AI or AS) is best for them. However, my first pass through the rotation section will only be for using AS as a focus dump outside the CA phase and when under no dynamic haste so that I can get what I think is the generally recommended case out first. Then I may go back and support the AI hardcast case during those situations.

I know you said you were testing whether or not to use Chimera Shot during the careful aim phase. With the CS Glyph, would you still just use CS at the last possible moment to extend the sting during CA? I can't see using it off CD during CA as a Dps increase.

Noleafclover · 02/26/11, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mikael116

After running some tests it appears that you need 950-1k haste from gear + 3/3 pathing+ 4pc t11 to support the glyphed CS rotation of CS-ASx2-SSx5[subbing AiS on proc for 5th SS] in a raiding environment with the 10% haste buff.

While RNG on MMM messes things up a little, we can generally assume we will get AiS! proc every second CS cycle. That means our rotation below 80% with CS glyph looks like this:

CS-5xSS-2AS and
CS-4xSS-2AS-AiS!

It's not hard to notice that unless you bring SS down to 1s cast time, those 2 cycles have different lengths. Therefore before deciding how much haste you need, you have to decide which cycle you want to optimise to begin with.

Firstly, let's assume you want to fit the first cycle within the 9s CS cd. That would force you to squeeze 5SS within 6s. In order to do so, you'd need around 1900 haste. That probably isn't obtainable unless you not only have great gear but also choose to reforge crit to haste. Furthermore, at 1900 haste the second cycle has 0.2s idle time. While it's not a huge problem, it definitely isn't optimal, so I think it's safe to conclude that optimising the first cycle is a bad idea.

So, lets look at the second cycle. In order to optimise it, we'd need to fit 4SS in 5 seconds which takes about 1350 haste. At that value, CS in the first cycle is delayed by 0.25s and is not delayed at all in the second one, averaging out at 12.5% of the CS glyph benefit being wasted. This is probably acceptable as long as you're good enough to push those buttons on time.

Coming back to Mikael's post: I don't know how you calculated the 950-1k haste value, but it doesn't seem like a particularly good spot. At 1k haste, your SS will take 1.28s. That's a 0.4s delay on the first cycle and 0.12s delay on the 2nd one, meaning an average 26% loss of CS glyph benefit. I don't see any particular advantage of sitting on that value and not another one.

Pogonophobia · 02/26/11, 8:13 PM

If one was going to attempt the AS subsitution for AI during the CS phase, has anyone looked at how it might affect the Termination phase if you talent for it?

I would assume the AS focus dump might make taking Termination valuable (ie not wasted focus) but I am not sure. Assuming the rotation that Noleafclover is proposing should we avoid Termination?

alienangel · 02/26/11, 8:20 PM

With the fix that just went into FD to remove the excess focus generation RF was providing, the DPS value of the RF glyph seems to go down, to a point where the AI glyph shows as better (so primes are arcane, steady and aimed). This is still probably not really correct since FD still isn't able to hardcast AI during RF.

Whitefyst · 02/26/11, 9:44 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

With the fix that just went into FD to remove the excess focus generation RF was providing, the DPS value of the RF glyph seems to go down, to a point where the AI glyph shows as better (so primes are arcane, steady and aimed). This is still probably not really correct since FD still isn't able to hardcast AI during RF.

Yes, I expected that the switch to AS as the focus dump during most of the fight would greatly diminish its value, although it should be a little higher as you suggest once FD allows AI hardcasts during RFs when not the docus dump. This is mentioned in the updated glyph section of the OP and part of the reason that I now list the CS glyph as probably the best third option, although its preferrential.

The Aimed Shot glyph is a bad option for the last glyph, at least last I checked. During the CA phase and RFs, you should have plenty of focus to support the AIs without it I believe (still need to verify). Then for most of the fight you are only doing an MMM proc AI every 18-20s on average.

Rivkah · 02/27/11, 1:52 AM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

The most glaring thing that I observe is the autoshot modeling for losses from AI interruptions. In FD between the two cases, 27 AI were lost and only 37 autoshots gained. Thus, there was an average of 1.37 autoshots lost per AI cast. I had approximated that it would be on average 1.5 autoshots lost per AI cast with the actual value experienced in a fight depending on timing. With the 1.5 ratio, then 41 autoshots should have been lost. The DPS of 4 more autoshots is about 102 DPS. What needs to be added to that is the 1 to 2 more WQ procs and the 1-2 more GftT procs. This all works out to being a small DPS gain for my character.

Maybe my 1.5 autoshots lost per AI cast estimate is too high. If it is, then that will skew the results in favor of hardcasting AI. What do you all think?

Just for reference- my current implementation on FD for loss of autoshots from aimed shot uses two factors:
1) I estimate the loss of the mid-cast autoshot from starting a fresh aimed shot to be .5 autoshots
2) I tally up the cast time from each hardcasted aimed shot, and subtract the number of autoshots that would be cast during that time based on the average expected autoshot cast speed

I'm not really sure if this is the best method, but at the time it seemed the most logical approach. The biggest issue with this approach is I'm not actually tracking how fast the autoshots are when the interruptions are taking place, I'm just using the average case autoshot. With a more dynamic use of AI, on average the autoshot cast speed is going to be shorter when you're actually using it, so that would throw off the numbers somewhat- since without the interruptions you'd actually be casting more autos during that hasted period. When you hardcast aimed over the entire fight the estimate would be closer to actual practice.

I'm considering spending some time working manual autoshot tracking into the simulation instead of the current estimated shots method (since it looks as if we will be living with this aimed shot situation for some time). That requires some significant coding though so I'm not sure how soon I could get around to it.

D3thray · 02/27/11, 3:07 AM

If I'm understanding you correctly Zeherah, I don't think that the autoshot cast time during interruptions for AiS matters regardless of haste until AiS gets pushed under 1 second per cast. While the autoshots are firing faster, the AiS is casting faster as well, and the number of autoshots lost per AiS cast should remain constant over time.

In modeling this behavior, it should be as simple as multiplying the number of hard cast AiS by the average autoshots lost per cast to come up with the total number of lost autoshots each sim.

However if you're only modeling 0.5 autoshots lost per AiS cast, that seems quite low. On average it should be (AiS cast time)/(weapon speed) + 0.5. For my own 2.9 speed bow (2.9/2.9) + 0.5 = 1.5 lost autoshots per AiS.

Rivkah · 02/27/11, 4:37 AM

The .5 autoshots is the assumed amount of autoshots lost to interrupting an autoshot midcast to apply aimed shot. I'm adding that to the total autoshot lost during casting the aimed shot (since I actually can more easily track how much time that takes) to get a total amount lost per shot.

It's a good point though that the cast time of aimed and autoshot should be fairly proportional, so I could just work off of that figure rather than trying to calculate off the autoshot speed at all, and probably get a more accurate count that way without having to modify the autoshot implementation. I'll take a look at modifying it accordingly.

Whitefyst · 02/27/11, 6:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

It's a good point though that the cast time of aimed and autoshot should be fairly proportional, so I could just work off of that figure rather than trying to calculate off the autoshot speed at all, and probably get a more accurate count that way without having to modify the autoshot implementation. I'll take a look at modifying it accordingly.

This is what I factor into my hand calculations and how I came up with the 1.5 number I use. Most hunter weapon speeds are between 2.8 and 3s. With base AI cast time of 2.9s, the autoshot cast frequency will always be about the same as the AI cast time.

I agree that this simple change should increase the accuracy, especially if you explictly account for the weapon speed as D3thray suggests.

Namarus · 02/27/11, 12:16 PM

I've been pondering whether careful aim is actually really a worthwhile talent. I can understand that maybe when killing adds etc.. it might be worthwhile. However, on a number of fights that I've been on there has been a considerable amount of time where we stop dps and literally do nothing awaiting the perfect time to transition. Chimaeron and Maloriak being examples of both.

Increased dps in the first 20% of a fight I just can't see being a make or break thing on fights. If it was on the last 20% i could see a point to the talent, but the first. Has anyone else got some thoughts on this?

alienangel · 02/27/11, 12:39 PM

We've touched on that before, but as MM it seems moot since we don't really have a choice about it - I can't get down to Master Marksman and Rapid Recuperation without either spending points in either CA or Termination (or spending points in much worse talents like Resistance is Futile). You can argue that if CA is useless, Termination might be more useful, but most people don't like the idea of Termination (means not doing a rotation that we optimized for the middle 60% of the fight, gives bonus focus at a point of the fight we're using focus free shots, doesn't reduce the number of StS we need to do to keep ISS up, etc).

Personally even if it is a fight where we hold DPS to wait for a transition, I think having to do that is better than scrambling to make a transition in time.

For other specs like SV, debating whether to take CA or not is a better question, since you're actually choosing between things like CA and Frenzy or CA and SE.

Scharla · 02/28/11, 8:56 AM

Careful Aim is also worthwhile with regards to meeting Enrage timers on some bosses.

While it's not helping for a large portion of the fight it is a huge boost for that first section which especially on first kills can make the difference at the end.

aijlad · 02/28/11, 4:51 PM

Without the 4 piece T11 bonus I'm finding that you would need about 1260 haste rating from gear and 3/3 Pathing to get 5 Steady Shots and 2 Arcane Shots between Chimera Shot without the CS glyph. That leaves you with a 1.4 second Steady Shot cast time assuming the 10% haste buff while outside dynamic haste effects. It also works out pretty well during Rapid Fire as it gives you almost exactly a 1 second Steady Shot cast time. That also means that if you get an MMM proc you are only waiting 0.4 seconds to fire CS.

If you are close to 359 item level and don't yet have the 4 piece bonus I think this is a pretty good amount of haste to shoot for if you plan on using the Arcane Shot focus dump. Now that FD has been updated to allow you to hardcast AiS when under dynamic haste effects I'm playing with the settings and finding that 1264 haste with my gear seems to be about the sweet spot when using the settings I used. If you'd like a look search FD public settings for:

359 - no 4 piece

I found that disabling CS and SrS during CA was a little over 70 dps gain. I also found that hardcasting AiS during both RF and Bloodlust were dps gains. I wasn't sure that using it during BL would be as beneficial, but it was about a 259 dps gain.

Shaby · 02/28/11, 6:16 PM

Quote... have 3/3 Pathing. Hence, it is the haste derived solely from your haste rating. 10.8% is roughly 1383 haste rating. 7% to 10% is roughly 896 to 1280 haste rating....end quote
Does this apply for people who have 4 set bonus, if not what should be the aimed haste for people who managed to obtain 4 set?

Whitefyst · 02/28/11, 6:51 PM

For those of you that use FD, I have determined at least two items in FD that affect the outcome of the decision of whether to use CS and SrS during the CA phase.

My hand calculations was showing that it is more beneficial (although slightly) to use CS and SrS during the CA phase, but many people were reporting that FD was showing the opposite. The two factors that I have found so far that affect the result are:
1) The setting to save focus for Chimera Shot. With how this setting requires you to have 94 focus before firing an AI, having it set can result in both shotting less AIs than you could have and wasting focus. However, turning this setting off is not ideal either since it can result in you not having enough focus to cast CS in time and your SrS falling off.
2) The latency. FD applies the latency to your instant casts but not your cast time shots. This ends up favoring casting AI over CS. However, if latency is applied to both types of shots, or if your latency is really low, then CS is favored again.

At 0 latency and with the save focus for Chimera Shot setting turned off, I got about a 750 DPS increase with casting CS and SrS over the CA phase when doing a test of the CA phase only.

If latency is indeed an issue that affects instant cast shots only and cannot be eliminated with the shot queuing, then that would end up favoring not casting CS and SrS in the CA phase with the current gear set.

EDIT: Okay, I got educated on the fact that latency does still apply to shots that take a GCD or less to perform. Thus, this does still favor the AI only rotation during the CA phase, but only by just a little. However, I still recommend using CS and SrS since I believe they are better options in real game situations that involve movement and interruptions/push backs of cast shots. If two options are relatively equal and one is cast time and the other instant, the instant choice is better.

Originally Posted by Shaby

Quote... have 3/3 Pathing. Hence, it is the haste derived solely from your haste rating. 10.8% is roughly 1383 haste rating. 7% to 10% is roughly 896 to 1280 haste rating....end quote
Does this apply for people who have 4 set bonus, if not what should be the aimed haste for people who managed to obtain 4 set?

The quoted comment is not a statement of how much haste you should have, it is just a clarification of what I mean when I say haste from gear. I added this clarification since I got a large number of posts asking for clarification on what "haste from gear" meant and whether or not it included Pathing.

Originally Posted by aijlad

Without the 4 piece T11 bonus I'm finding that you would need about 1260 haste rating from gear and 3/3 Pathing.

I found that disabling CS and SrS during CA was a little over 70 dps gain. I also found that hardcasting AiS during both RF and Bloodlust were dps gains. I wasn't sure that using it during BL would be as beneficial, but it was about a 259 dps gain.

The 1260 haste rating from gear that you list for the case without the T11 4-set is consistent with the 9.75% that I recommend as is your statement about using AI as the focus dump during RF and BL.

Although FD may show disabling CS and SrS during the CA phase as a gain, I recommend actually using them during the CA phase per the analysis in the OP and per the discussion earlier in this post concerning FD modeling.