[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide - Page 19

Neruse · 03/01/11, 4:04 AM

Fiddling around with the spreadsheet comparing Arcane as a focus dump sub-80% to straight Steady spam sub-80%, and it's showing a ~400 dps gain in favour of Steady spam in 372 gear.

Since I can't create custom weapons, I added 2500 AP and the dps gap widened even further in favour of Steady spam.

While Arcane itself gains more damage per AP/weapon dps than Steady, the damage Aimed gains per AP/weapon dps is much higher than Arcane. So it seems that the extra Aimed! procs that Steady spam grants more than offsets any dps gained by replacing Steady with Arcane to dump excess focus. Steady also gains from addition haste at certain points, and also from crit a second time via Piercing Shots.

I wouldn't be surprised if all MM hunters end up dropping Arcane for static single-target rotations in T12 gear. Blizzard will have to increase Arcane damage by ~15-25% to make Arcane worth using as a focus dump.

Whitefyst · 03/01/11, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

Fiddling around with the spreadsheet comparing Arcane as a focus dump sub-80% to straight Steady spam sub-80%, and it's showing a ~400 dps gain in favour of Steady spam in 372 gear.

While Arcane itself gains more damage per AP/weapon dps than Steady, the damage Aimed gains per AP/weapon dps is much higher than Arcane. So it seems that the extra Aimed! procs that Steady spam grants more than offsets any dps gained by replacing Steady with Arcane to dump excess focus. Steady also gains from addition haste at certain points, and also from crit a second time via Piercing Shots.

I wouldn't be surprised if all MM hunters end up dropping Arcane for static single-target rotations in T12 gear. Blizzard will have to increase Arcane damage by ~15-25% to make Arcane worth using as a focus dump.

Your results only show part of the story.

It is true in the no CA case that when going from a AS focus dump rotation to an SS spam only case between CS casts that hunter DPS will increase. In FD with, the increase in hunter DPS is 140 with my current gear and 148 in full 372 gear (pretty constant). This increase is due to the additional MMM AI procs as you state; however, this does not tell the whole story.

The loss of using AS results in significantly less Sic'Em procs greatly reducing pet WH uptime and pet DPS. At my current gear, the loss in WH uptime (using 1 SA and 1 WH in both cases since it was best) is 44% with a 310 loss in pet DPS. Thus, its a 170 DPS in total hunter and pet DPS. At the 372 gear set, the loss in WH uptime (1 SA and 1WH is still best for both), is 45% with a loss of 387 pet DPS (higher crit is more Sic'Ems lost). This resulted in a 239 loss of total hunter and pet DPS.

Hence, with just considering this factor, if it is a fight where you pet can't be used well or is dead, spamming SSs is better than casting AS as the focus dump. However, for most fights where our pet is active at least 50% of the time, you are better off using AS.

Another problem with this analysis is that dynamic haste effects favor SS instead of AS since the SS cast time is reduced while the AS cast time remains constant. This doesn't factor in that in either rotation that while under dynamic haste effects that casting hasted AIs is better than casting just hasted SSs (which may be capped at the GCD) or ASs. Factoring in this reduces the benefit of the SS only case relative to the AS case.

Zimms · 03/01/11, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

Fiddling around with the spreadsheet comparing Arcane as a focus dump sub-80% to straight Steady spam sub-80%, and it's showing a ~400 dps gain in favour of Steady spam in 372 gear.

Since I can't create custom weapons, I added 2500 AP and the dps gap widened even further in favour of Steady spam.

While Arcane itself gains more damage per AP/weapon dps than Steady, the damage Aimed gains per AP/weapon dps is much higher than Arcane. So it seems that the extra Aimed! procs that Steady spam grants more than offsets any dps gained by replacing Steady with Arcane to dump excess focus. Steady also gains from addition haste at certain points, and also from crit a second time via Piercing Shots.

I wouldn't be surprised if all MM hunters end up dropping Arcane for static single-target rotations in T12 gear. Blizzard will have to increase Arcane damage by ~15-25% to make Arcane worth using as a focus dump.

Is this with AS glyphed?

Neruse · 03/01/11, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Your results only show part of the story.

It is true in the no CA case that when going from a AS focus dump rotation to an SS spam only case between CS casts that hunter DPS will increase. In FD with, the increase in hunter DPS is 140 with my current gear and 148 in full 372 gear (pretty constant). This increase is due to the additional MMM AI procs as you state; however, this does not tell the whole story.

The loss of using AS results in significantly less Sic'Em procs greatly reducing pet WH uptime and pet DPS. At my current gear, the loss in WH uptime (using 1 SA and 1 WH in both cases since it was best) is 44% with a 310 loss in pet DPS. Thus, its a 170 DPS in total hunter and pet DPS. At the 372 gear set, the loss in WH uptime (1 SA and 1WH is still best for both), is 45% with a loss of 387 pet DPS (higher crit is more Sic'Ems lost). This resulted in a 239 loss of total hunter and pet DPS.

Hence, with just considering this factor, if it is a fight where you pet can't be used well or is dead, spamming SSs is better than casting AS as the focus dump. However, for most fights where our pet is active at least 50% of the time, you are better off using AS.

Another problem with this analysis is that dynamic haste effects favor SS instead of AS since the SS cast time is reduced while the AS cast time remains constant. This doesn't factor in that in either rotation that while under dynamic haste effects that casting hasted AIs is better than casting just hasted SSs (which may be capped at the GCD) or ASs. Factoring in this reduces the benefit of the SS only case relative to the AS case.

I show a loss of 32% WH uptime (down from 90%) with a 1/2 + 1/2 specc'd pet. Dropping Steady is still a nearly 400 dps gain, even after a ~180 dps loss from the pet.

You didn't really explain anything. Did you swap the Arcane glyph for Rapid Fire? Did you drop a point from Pathing for BD? At lower gear levels the gap nearly disappears, but it seems to increase with improved weapons and higher AP.

I was only comparing Arcane to Steady. I'm well aware that at sufficient haste casted Aimed surpasses both.

By design, a focus dump should be a non-trivial dps increase over non-stop focus capping. But Arcane is underpowered as a focus dump.

Whitefyst · 03/01/11, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

I show a loss of 32% WH uptime (down from 90%) with a 1/2 + 1/2 specc'd pet. Dropping Steady is still a nearly 400 dps gain, even after a ~180 dps loss from the pet.

You didn't really explain anything. Did you swap the Arcane glyph for Rapid Fire? Did you drop a point from Pathing for BD? At lower gear levels the gap nearly disappears, but it seems to increase with improved weapons and higher AP.

I was only comparing Arcane to Steady. I'm well aware that at sufficient haste casted Aimed surpasses both.

By design, a focus dump should be a non-trivial dps increase over non-stop focus capping. But Arcane is underpowered as a focus dump.

In my analysis and response to you, I did the following, which I either explained or felt were obvious choices:
- Looked at two cases - my current gear set without the T11 4-set and at about a 350sh ilevel and a full 372 gear set with the T11 4-set
- I did not change any talents beyond untalenting CA and putting those points into a useless talent like CB
- Between the two cases, I changed 1 glyph. For the AS focus dump case, I used the AS glyph since it makes no sense to use AS as a focus dump without that glyph or to compare an unglyphed AS to a glyphed SS. For the SS case, I used the RF glyph (I did also check the AI glyph, but it did not do much.). The third glyph is both cases was CS.
- I reforged haste as neccessary to improve each case
- I set up FD to cast AI when its cast time is less than 1.8s (during RF and BL)

And yes, as a focus dump AS is rather weak when compared to SS, but when you glyph for AS, as you should if you use it, it is still a small overall DPS increase that seems to get a little larger with gear scaling instead of smaller as is the case if you do not glyph it. The straight hunter DPS component may scale slightly negatively with gear increase, but the pet DPS component scales positively more since your pet does more DPS at higher gear and more crits result in higher WH uptimes and DPS.

And the reason that hasted AI was mentioned is because if you are going to compare the AS versus SS cases against each other, you need to compare them with how you would actually ideally use them. For the SS only case, you would not still be casting SSs only during RFs since that is a waste, you would use AIs too, and that should be factored into the comparison is all that I was saying.

Since you seemed to be making a recommendation to use SS instead as AS outside the CA phase, I was only trying to make sure that you accounted for all the factors when making that recommendation. Since it appeared that you did not and that my analysis showed the situation to be the opposite case, although still very close, I am obligated to explain why I do not recommend what you do.

I will readily agree though that I think AS needs a buff to make it truly a worthwhile focus dump; however, even without a buff, it is still better to use overall in most situations.

Nickah · 03/02/11, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Since you seemed to be making a recommendation to use SS instead as AS outside the CA phase, I was only trying to make sure that you accounted for all the factors when making that recommendation. Since it appeared that you did not and that my analysis showed the situation to be the opposite case, although still very close, I am obligated to explain why I do not recommend what you do.

I will readily agree though that I think AS needs a buff to make it truly a worthwhile focus dump; however, even without a buff, it is still better to use overall in most situations.

Is FD not modeling this appropriately?... because I'm seeing a significant DPS increase as well when removing AS from my rotation entirely. While you're right that my pet DPS goes down, my hunter DPS goes up more than enough to cover it (a net 300 DPS increase).

Also, glyphing for AS results in a DPS loss for me when replacing either RF, CS or SS across the board when it's in my rotation.

If FD is working as expected here, it seems to me that AS isn't worth casting over SS at all right now (at least at certain gear levels).

Whitefyst · 03/02/11, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nickah

Is FD not modeling this appropriately?... because I'm seeing a significant DPS increase as well when removing AS from my rotation entirely. While you're right that my pet DPS goes down, my hunter DPS goes up more than enough to cover it (a net 300 DPS increase).

Also, glyphing for AS results in a DPS loss for me when replacing either RF, CS or SS across the board when it's in my rotation.

If FD is working as expected here, it seems to me that AS isn't worth casting over SS at all right now (at least at certain gear levels).

The result you get is very settings dependent. The settings I recommend to best model in FD what I believe that the rotation should look like in different situations are:
- Save focus for Chimera Shot ON, although its current implementation can cause you to use less focus dumps, which can skew the results. If it is try turning it off, but be aware that it could cause you to delay CS when you really wouldn't and could cause SrS falling off in some situation.
- Don't save focus for serpent sting if it falls off set OFF
- Disable Arcane Shot while Careful Aim is active set ON
- Steady Shot in pairs if ISS has less than 4s
- Aimed Shot Behavior as manual cast and instant
- Maximum speed to cast AI set to around 1.8s and except during Careful Aim
- Chimera Shot CA behavior delay until less than 2.9s left on sting (standard priority may be better in some situations)
- Shot priority
SrS
CS (before Readiness so CD is reset)
KS (before Readiness so CD is reset)
RF
Readiness
AI (after RF to benefit from the haste)
AS
SS

With these settings and loading in your character from the armory with a Ferocity pet with 1 SA and 1 WH, I see the following impacts:
- DPS after armory load with AS in the priority: 26966 DPS
- Changing RF glyph to AS glyph: 27096 DPS (+130)
- Dropping AS from priority after replacing glyph back to RF: 26954 DPS (-11)

This indicates to me that using glyphed AS (and maybe even unglyphed AS depending on your situation) is better than using SS, as long as a hunter is using AI while under large dynamic haste effects outside the CA phase as recommended. It also indicates that if you are using AS that the AS glyph is better than the RF glyph.

Now I will readily admit that the DPS difference in an ideal fight is very close, where the choice is really preferrential. However, we never participate in an ideal fight. With having to move and with interrupting abilities and pushbacks, casting an instant like AS, when you have the spare focus to do so, is generally a better option than casting SSs, even if the theoretical DPS is similar.

Note that this analysis was done using the default latency of 150ms since that is pretty much the high values I normally see. With less latency (50ms in this example), the results are even better for the AS case, although not necessarily the glyph at:
- DPS after armory load with AS in the priority: 27898 DPS
- Changing RF glyph to AS glyph: 27907 DPS (+9) (the small number is effected by the save focus issue a little)
- Dropping AS from priority after replacing glyph back to RF: 27670 DPS (-229)

Thus, lower latencies favor AS as a focus dump over using SS only. Conversely, if you have higher than 150ms latency, an SS only rotation in your CS cycle may be better for you outside the CA phase and when not experiencing dynamic haste effects.

Izuul · 03/02/11, 9:58 PM

I've had better luck turning off Save Focus for Chimera Shot, and then manually changing the minimum focus to use Arcane Shot to 65.

I'm still seeing substantially better results in FD using AiS as my focus dump though.

Ardeaf · 03/03/11, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Note that this analysis was done using the default latency of 150ms since that is pretty much the high values I normally see. With less latency (50ms in this example), the results are even better for the AS case, although not necessarily the glyph at:
- DPS after armory load with AS in the priority: 27898 DPS
- Changing RF glyph to AS glyph: 27907 DPS (+9) (the small number is effected by the save focus issue a little)
- Dropping AS from priority after replacing glyph back to RF: 27670 DPS (-229)

Thus, lower latencies favor AS as a focus dump over using SS only. Conversely, if you have higher than 150ms latency, an SS only rotation in your CS cycle may be better for you outside the CA phase and when not experiencing dynamic haste effects.

I cannot replicate this at all. I have saved two profiles, "Ardeaf - test AiS" and "Ardeaf - test AS". I did exactly the set up you did, (shot priority, glyphs, talents, latency) and I actually lost 517 dps when adding AS and its glyph back into my rotation, and this is with 50 ms. I'm guessing it has something to do with me having 4pc t10 as well as other upgrades you could use, as well as my high haste which I would ideally reforge all to crit.

Here are the links to the FD settings:
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer - AS dropped completely
Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer - AS in rotation except for during CA

Noleafclover · 03/03/11, 1:27 PM

EDIT: Okay, I got educated on the fact that latency does still apply to shots that take a GCD or less to perform. Thus, this does still favor the AI only rotation during the CA phase, but only by just a little. However, I still recommend using CS and SrS since I believe they are better options in real game situations that involve movement and interruptions/push backs of cast shots. If two options are relatively equal and one is cast time and the other instant, the instant choice is better.

I'd like to challenge that recommendation. Firstly, if you choose to use CS to keep up SrS, you are forced to shoot it within relatively limited intervals (every 9/10-14s), meaning it will be on cd for about 2/3 of the time. As you pointed out, many fights involve events that will force you to move in an unanticipated manner. You're unlikely to have to move very far or very long, but you will have to move. During the time that you move, you can:

Shoot CS
Shoot AS
Switch to fox and shoot SS
Do nothing and restart casting after you stop moving

Of all those options, the third one is only truly useful if the movement's duration is at least 3-4s (not simply moving out of the fire then) while the first one is definitely the most effective and it is also the one that in 2 cases out of 3 you won't have available when needed if you choose to maintain SrS during CA. In other words, I found it more useful to try and maintain at least 44 focus at all times and keep the CS in reserve for the moving-out-of-the-fire moments rather than having to spend focus on the much less effective AS if i'm not lucky and the fire appears when CS is on cd. And if I don't have to move - well, no CS/SrS is better when stationary, isn't it?

Secondly, shooting CS just often enough to maintain SrS makes the rotation far more involving as you need to watch the SrS timer and judge whether or not you have the time for yet another shot. A mistake is rather costly to recover from (25 focus+ gcd) and your attention turns away from the encounter itself, which can't be good. While this is arguably just a matter of the player's individual skill, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle and I see no reason to make things any more complicated than they need to be unless there's a significant gain in making them more complicated. In this case, the gains are rather questionable.

Last but not least, it is far more difficult to take advantage of the free hardcast AiS when MMM procs if you choose to maintain SrS during CA. If you stick to SS and AiS rotation, it's relatively straightforward to start shooting AiS whenever you just shot SS and have 4 stacks of MMM on. Just make sure you have the focus to do so, and 60% of the time you'll be able to get a very nice dps bonus. If you add CS and SrS into the mix, you'll find yourself in situations when you'll know that if you start casting that AiS, you may no longer have the time or the focus to refresh SrS on time, presenting you with another questionable choice to make.

Speaking of which, did you consider the free hardcast AiS in your AI vs AS focus dump analysis? I know some people consider this a bug or even an exploit, but Blizzard don't seem to be very concerned about it and for now at least, it's there. Even if you personally prefer AS as a focus dump during the standard phase (I do on at least some fights), I'd still recommend shooting AiS instead if you're at 4 stacks MMM and just shot a steady.

D3thray · 03/03/11, 6:17 PM

Ardeaf, in your settings, change the maximum speed to cast AiS from 1.8 to 2.1, swap the AiS glyph for AS glyph, and RF glyph for CS glyph and you'll notice similar numbers to dropping AS entirely and glyphing appropriately. However since this spec has significantly better mobility it becomes better in a real world situation.

Whitefyst · 03/03/11, 9:29 PM

Originally Posted by Noleafclover

Secondly, shooting CS just often enough to maintain SrS makes the rotation far more involving as you need to watch the SrS timer and judge whether or not you have the time for yet another shot.

Last but not least, it is far more difficult to take advantage of the free hardcast AiS when MMM procs if you choose to maintain SrS during CA.

Speaking of which, did you consider the free hardcast AiS in your AI vs AS focus dump analysis?

First, concerning using CS to refresh SrS during the CA phase, that is the suggested case to maximize DPS. Concerning the situation where you need to wait to refresh SrS at the last moment is just the worse case scenario to meet the maximum DPS requirement. For the max DPS case during the CA phase (and also the other phases), in some situations it works out best to use CS a little off its CD, while there are others where the maximum theoretical DPS is to cast CS late. If you have trouble with the cast CS late recommendation, then you can go with the alternate cycle that only casts one AI and uses CS sooner. You have to chose the option that fits best for your situation. Not everyone has the same latency, reaction times, or preferrences. I try to make that clear and state that other rotations are possible but that I try to list the cases that fit for the largest percentage of players.

Concerning the free hardcast AI case, once again you have to do what you feel works best for your situation; however, personally, I do not think it is hard to fit in a CS to refresh SrS when you have a 5-6s window to do so. Its an instant cast shot, if you know you are going to be getting close to 5 stacks of MMM late in the window, then just cast CS earlier.

I did not factor in the free hardcast AiS into the analysis, nor do I plan to. I consider it a bonus for those that use it.

Originally Posted by Ardeaf

I cannot replicate this at all. I have saved two profiles, "Ardeaf - test AiS" and "Ardeaf - test AS". I did exactly the set up you did, (shot priority, glyphs, talents, latency) and I actually lost 517 dps when adding AS and its glyph back into my rotation, and this is with 50 ms. I'm guessing it has something to do with me having 4pc t10 as well as other upgrades you could use, as well as my high haste which I would ideally reforge all to crit.

The difference I believe is still with how FD is modeling the rotation. For the AS case, I recommend using the CS glyph and a rotation that shoots CS either right off the CD or shortly thereafter as listed in the OP. I updated your AS case to use the CS glyph instead of AI glyph, which is a bad option when not doing a lot of AIs.

On some cycles in FD, the CS delay was not bad and around as expected with the level of haste and latency at about 0.4s; however, there were also many cycles where the delays were 1 to 1.5s, which is not ideal. This occurs when you have enough focus for it to do a 3rd AS in the cycle, which pushes back the CS to get the second SS pair in to maintain ISS uptime. The better choice on those cycles would have been to skip the 3rd AS and peform CS closer to on time.

Ardeaf · 03/03/11, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by D3thray

Ardeaf, in your settings, change the maximum speed to cast AiS from 1.8 to 2.1, swap the AiS glyph for AS glyph, and RF glyph for CS glyph and you'll notice similar numbers to dropping AS entirely and glyphing appropriately. However since this spec has significantly better mobility it becomes better in a real world situation.

Your entire post is completely wrong. If the maximum speed to cast AiS is greater than my actual AiS cast without dynamic haste effects (2.0s), then I will always cast AiS. I went ahead and plugged in what you suggested and not surprisingly (with debug shot information enabled) I never casted AS and always hard casted AiS.

edit: I tried a bunch (about 4) different reforging schemes and a shot priority with casting CS on CD and using AS as a focus dump, and nothing comes close to hard-casting AiS (the closest I got was 300 DPS, which is with very low latency, and at a more realistic latency - 100ms or so - the gap increased even further).

Currently I do not see hardcasting AiS being beat by AS at all - even in real-world situations. Ideally you wouldn't have to move at all, but even on movement "intense" fights like Atramedes air phase the movement hardly impairs your casts if you switch between fox and hawk frequently enough.

Gavinas · 03/03/11, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ardeaf

Currently I do not see hardcasting AiS being beat by AS at all - even in real-world situations. Ideally you wouldn't have to move at all, but even on movement "intense" fights like Atramedes air phase the movement hardly impairs your casts if you switch between fox and hawk frequently enough.

Since Femaledwarfs rotation implementation for the various Aimed Shot and mixed Arcane/Aimed shot rotations is still a work in progress and has some known flaws I loaded your character from the armory into Simcraft.

Using an entirely Aimed Shot rotation: 27653 dps
Using an Arcane Shot rotation outside CA and dynamic haste effects with the AS/RF/Steady glyphs: 27458 dps

Aimed Shot's DPE is ~40k, if you have to interrupt a single one midcast in a 5 minute fight that's 133 dps lost. It doesn't take much movement at all for the AS rotation to pull ahead. Running with a 3s movement event every 30s puts the 2 specs within the sims margin of error of one another.

Aimed Shot does scale better than Arcane Shot so once you're into 372+ gear sets the gap between the two rotations widens somewhat, but even in full 372 BiS it's only ~450 dps for a static fight.

Noleafclover · 03/04/11, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ardeaf

Currently I do not see hardcasting AiS being beat by AS at all - even in real-world situations. Ideally you wouldn't have to move at all, but even on movement "intense" fights like Atramedes air phase the movement hardly impairs your casts if you switch between fox and hawk frequently enough.

Actually, Atramedes is not a good example. In the ground phase, it usually pays to build focus between the sonic rings spawns, so you can use instant shots when moving. This way you don't need to switch to fox at all and you can still perform the normal AS dump rotation (or at least something close to it).

As for the air phase, on heroic you don't have the time to switch aspects and stand for 2s while casting aimed. You pretty much have to be on the move at all times, period. And that means going fox and using the AS dump rotation. On normal mode, perhaps it might work but I'm fairly certain you won't always have the time to finish the AiS cast either so AS would probably still be superior.

I'm quite certain that AS does have it's use. Any time you have a reason to believe you may be forced to stop casting and move immediately, you're generally better off doing AS rather than AiS. The gap between them isn't that high and even relatively infrequent interrupts will push AiS below AS.

That said, AiS is superior to AS and it should be the default rotation when you can be fairly confident you won't be interrupted. It is up to the player's skill to recognize the "safe" moments and there are more of those than it first seems. For example, while Magmaw might force you to move quite a bit, he only has 3 abilities that could make you do so (2 on normal) and all of them happen within precisely defined intervals. The same goes for Valiona (2 abilities happening at predetermined moments), Maloriak's fire and frost phases, Anshal and Rohash (Nezir is more tricky) and many others. That is why I believe that you should be prepared to switch fluently between the AiS and AS dump rotations not only from encounter to encounter or from phase to phase but literally seconds apart depending on your experience and the feel for the encounter.