[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide - Page 20

Whitefyst · 03/04/11, 3:12 PM

To expand on Noleafclover's post:

I agree that in phases of a fight where you know that you will be standing still for a decent period of time and not be interrupted or experience pushback that hardcasting AI is the way to go by a little bit. Examples include:
- When Magmaw is vulnerable
- During most of the blue and red phases of Maloriak
- Conclave if on Rohash

In situations where you have to move often (like most of Atramedes or Al'Akir) or experience interruptions or pushback (e.g., Halfus' Furious Roar or Cho'gall's Worship), then AS is the better choice as a focus dump.

I also agree in that brief situations where you know that you can safely use AI that it is generally the better maximum DPS potential option to use as the focus dump. In situations where you are not sure that you can safely use AI, then AS is the better and safer option for overall better average DPS.

In writing the guide, which is complicated enough already, I chose to limit the options I would present and just state that alternate options do exist and will work for some players. I chose to pick one focus dump to use in various situations, and I chose the one that I felt was overall the best DPS options for real game play in general. Definitely, experienced players can slightly increase their DPS by making wise decisions on when to cast AI in the phases that I currently recommend using AS; however, I felt that that type of recommendation was too complicated and out of scope for the guide.

With that said, I will at least add a statement into the AI vs AS section concerning this.

Shadowwaltz · 03/06/11, 2:11 AM

It's possible to stand still on virtually every fight, except for maybe parts of them.

-All of Magmaw (DBM has a timer for the flame pillar, time it so you Steady in Fox when you have to move)
-All of Omnotron except adds
-All of Maloriak except moving in for flame/moving out, unless you're standing close to the boss
-All of Atramedes ground phase except when targeted, when not being targeted in air phase
-All of Chimaeron except when moving in for feud (and when you have caustic slime of course)
-All of Nef except when you have to move

-All of Halfus
-50/50 on Dragons
-All of P1 & P3 on elementium, P2 use arcane, however since P3 is the important part use aimed glyph
-All of Cho'gall (still use arcane to get up Marked for Death on big add)

-All of Conclave, use mark + serpent sting when moving in from swapping platforms (or arcane instead of mark)

The only fight I think it's really necessary to glyph arcane and exclusively use arcane outside of haste buffs is on Al'akir because you have to move a lot, and randomly. It might be good on Double Dragons, but I don't know the breaking point of how many aimed shots you have to drop and how many arcanes you have to gain for the arcane glyph to beat the aimed glyph.

When you do have to move just for a little bit, if you're quick at swapping into fox you can just use steady while you move instead of spending focus.

Wrathblood · 03/07/11, 10:12 AM

Shadow,

Against Patchwerk, you'd want to use AiS because on a standstill fight its superior. The problem with the fights you list is all of the "except when you have to move" exceptions. As Gavinas points out above, the break-even between AiS and AS is TWO lost AiS over the course of a 5 minute fight.

If you can stand still the entire fight, or are good enough that you can literally lose zero AiS over the fight, then AiS is superior. Or if its a fight in which you REALLY get a chance to hammer the boss, especially at the start of a fight, and can s. tack a whole bunch of buffs and dynamic haste effects. Magmaw comes to mind, or if you're doing Tron, start with Arcanotron and can stand in it's first power circle. In those situations, AiS would probably be superior as well. Otherwise, you're going to want to go with AS as your dump.

aijlad · 03/07/11, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

It's possible to stand still on virtually every fight, except for maybe parts of them.

That's great for normal modes, but the heroic versions offer a different perspective. For instance, on Maloriak heroic during dark phase you are going to be moving constantly to get out of the slime unless you are just ridiculously lucky. But even then you may not find a "safe" spot that is always in range of the adds. There are plenty of other examples of how heroic modes force you to move much more frequently and sporadically than normal modes. That's why Arcane Shot typically does better. If you are constantly interrupting your Aimed Shots to move you are going to suffer much more than if you just used Arcane Shot except in those moments when you know you can just let loose...as Noleafclover pointed out above.

Xaraphyne · 03/07/11, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

It's possible to stand still on virtually every fight, except for maybe parts of them.

-All of Magmaw (DBM has a timer for the flame pillar, time it so you Steady in Fox when you have to move)
-All of Omnotron except adds
-All of Maloriak except moving in for flame/moving out, unless you're standing close to the boss
-All of Atramedes ground phase except when targeted, when not being targeted in air phase
-All of Chimaeron except when moving in for feud (and when you have caustic slime of course)
-All of Nef except when you have to move

-All of Halfus
-50/50 on Dragons
-All of P1 & P3 on elementium, P2 use arcane, however since P3 is the important part use aimed glyph
-All of Cho'gall (still use arcane to get up Marked for Death on big add)

-All of Conclave, use mark + serpent sting when moving in from swapping platforms (or arcane instead of mark)

I also find this to be dubious at best, even in normal modes. Maybe in an absolute perfect raid it'll go exactly as you describe, but RNG, and your other players maybe doing something unexpected or deviating slightly from the norm will ensure otherwise at least 95% of the time.

On Magmaw, if your AoE DPS is slow (maybe you're melee-heavy or don't have good snares) then you might have to move a little extra to avoid a parasite that's about to reach you. Or, if someone gets parasite'd, which shouldn't happen but can occasionally, you might have to move to dodge the parasite that comes out of them. OR, the big crash could happen on your side of the room, and you'll have to run then.

On Omnotron, you won't want to stand in the poison mist if you get targeted for it; you may have to dodge the fire cone breath; and you may have to run away because you or someone near you gets the electrical damaging debuff. I spend a lot of time moving around in that fight besides when the slimes come out.

Last phase of Maloriak, you'll probably have to move to avoid flame jets and orbs, or at least to reposition as the tank is moving the boss around. Otherwise, you probably have to move during green phase because Maloriak gets moved around then as well.

During Atramedes, you'd better be dodging the discs during the ground phase in addition to worrying about the breath. And in the air phase, you'll be pretty much running constantly even if you're not targeted for the laser because the missiles are non-stop. I can't even get off a Steady between missiles unless I get lucky (without Fox).

On Halfus, if you get the drake that lets you dodge the fireballs, you'll be doing that plenty. Additionally, if tank swaps are being done (depending on the drake comp), or if the tanks request misdirects for the drakes being released, you might have to move around for that as well, it's a big room.

I could go on, but honestly, I can't imagine ANY fight where you won't get at least two Aimed Shots interrupted. Maybe if we had another Patchwerk, but that's about it.

Shadowwaltz · 03/07/11, 8:14 PM

Using aimed doesn't exclude you from using arcane tho. My logs with aimed all have me casting 1-5 arcanes per fight for those times I'm stutter stepping. Yeah I haven't done most heroic modes, but when I tried switching to arcane full time I lost DPS, so aimed works for me.

I don't think saying interrupting 2 aimed shots is really accurate either. Just starting an aimed and then swapping to a steady or arcane or whatever .2 secs into the cast doesn't interrupt your auto, and obviously costs you less DPS than interrupting an aimed at the end of the cast.

aznxk3vi17 · 03/07/11, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

Using aimed doesn't exclude you from using arcane tho. My logs with aimed all have me casting 1-5 arcanes per fight for those times I'm stutter stepping. Yeah I haven't done most heroic modes, but when I tried switching to arcane full time I lost DPS, so aimed works for me.

I don't think saying interrupting 2 aimed shots is really accurate either. Just starting an aimed and then swapping to a steady or arcane or whatever .2 secs into the cast doesn't interrupt your auto, and obviously costs you less DPS than interrupting an aimed at the end of the cast.

Actually, to my knowledge, starting an AI immediately restarts and interrupts your shot timer.

Ikutaba · 03/07/11, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Wrathblood

Shadow,

Against Patchwerk, you'd want to use AiS because on a standstill fight its superior. The problem with the fights you list is all of the "except when you have to move" exceptions. As Gavinas points out above, the break-even between AiS and AS is TWO lost AiS over the course of a 5 minute fight.

2 lost AiS over a 5minute fight is like 12 interrupted SS. You can't really say that interrupted AiS are the cut off point, it's just a matter of how many SS you lose out on.

I can't think of any fight, save Cho'gall, Nef, and Al'akir, where I spend more than ~20secs total moving; unable to cast.

Argument's irrelevant anyways, any smart person is going to dump with AS when they have to move and need to dump focus, and hardcast AiS otherwise.

kondec · 03/08/11, 12:58 PM

As a sidenote - I just finished some testing on the PTR and every AiS hardcast while under the effect of an AiS procc did use the full 50 focus. I personally never put much effort into abusing this mechanic, but I guess it's worth to mention.

SpartanKillian · 03/08/11, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ikutaba

Argument's irrelevant anyways, any smart person is going to dump with AS when they have to move and need to dump focus, and hardcast AiS otherwise.

Not entirely. If you gear/glyph with an eye towards dumping into AS and set up a tight 9-second cycle, suddenly switching to using AiS as a dump when you're stationary is going to impact a lot of things outside AS vs AiS damage--relative stat weight of mastery, the overall value of your Chimera glyph, etc.

Shadowwaltz · 03/09/11, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by aznxk3vi17

Actually, to my knowledge, starting an AI immediately restarts and interrupts your shot timer.

Nah. I had a conversation with Gavinas about it and he tested it. It doesn't interrupt your auto unless the auto shot cast would have finished while you're casting Aimed.

That said, I cap focus a lot of the time with the aimed glyph, so even if you plan on hard-casting aimed most of the fight arcane is a reasonable option. Worst-case scenario (no arcanes are casted, no focus from aimed glyph would have been wasted) I only lose 160 DPS.

Gavinas · 03/09/11, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

Nah. I had a conversation with Gavinas about it and he tested it. It doesn't interrupt your auto unless the auto shot cast would have finished while you're casting Aimed.

To clarify this, the reset on the Auto-Shot timer occurs when the Aimed Shot cast completes. If your auto-shot would have gone off during the Aimed cast and you cancel it the auto-shot goes off immediately after you cancel the cast.

Harring10 · 03/10/11, 8:29 AM

It appears there is some general consensus on AiS vs AS as to which is better for focus dump dependant on the situation (static vs movement).

The question now is... if you're going to AiS dump when possible what are the best glyphs? Seems that if you are using AS as the sole focus dump - and have the requisite haste + 4pc T11 - then the preferred glyphs are: CS/AS/SteadyShot

But... if you plan on using AiS whenever possible - would it be a better balance if you ran: AiS/AS/SteadyShot or some variance thereof?

When modelling it on FD the CS/AS/SteadyShot shows highest - which seems contrary to the consensus of hard casting AiS being superior in static fights - note, this is using the settings recommended (1.8 AiS cast threshhold etc).

Also, has anyone ironed out the current haste plateaus? 1125-1175 yields me the best results on FD (again with CS/AS/SteadyShot glyphed) - but that too is contrary to the 10.8% from gear noted in the OP.

Some final details here would be most appreicated.

Whitefyst · 03/10/11, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Harring10

The question now is... if you're going to AiS dump when possible what are the best glyphs? Seems that if you are using AS as the sole focus dump - and have the requisite haste + 4pc T11 - then the preferred glyphs are: CS/AS/SteadyShot

But... if you plan on using AiS whenever possible - would it be a better balance if you ran: AiS/AS/SteadyShot or some variance thereof?

When modelling it on FD the CS/AS/SteadyShot shows highest - which seems contrary to the consensus of hard casting AiS being superior in static fights - note, this is using the settings recommended (1.8 AiS cast threshhold etc).

Also, has anyone ironed out the current haste plateaus? 1125-1175 yields me the best results on FD (again with CS/AS/SteadyShot glyphed) - but that too is contrary to the 10.8% from gear noted in the OP.

Some final details here would be most appreicated.

SS/AS/CS is indeed the best glyph set in most cases for those going with AS as the primary focus dump. If you cannot keep a close to tight CS rotation (like below 9.5s at worst), then the RF glyph is a good option instead of CS.

For those going with AI as the primary focus dump, the choice depends a lot on your other stats. The default would be what was used prior to the hotfix of SS/RF/AI. However, if your rotations are focus balanced without the AI glyph, then you probably want to chose another option.

If you want a balanced glyph choice since you do both AI and AS a lot, then any combination of SS and 2 of AS, AI, RF, and CS glyphs are good options depending on your gearing.

Although these options are not explicitly spelled out in the OP, the descriptions of the glyphs lead to these results.

The OP does not recommend 10.8% haste since the hotfix, although 10.8% may be fine. The recommendations for the Standard phase and CA phase have been updated for over a week or two. I just havent gotten around to analyzing the KS phase since I have been busy with other things and since it shouldn't affect your haste decision.

Also note that FD will not usually provide the same results as recommended for the following reasons:
- The recommendations in the OP do not include latency since that varies from player to player while FD does with a default of 150ms. To account for latency, you either need more haste to perform the suggested rotation, or less haste and less shots in the cycle.
- FD's rules do not necessarily model the suggested rotations. It goes straight off the priority settings which can be set to somewhat approximate the desired shot selections, but it does not ensure it.
- The recommendations in the OP are performed solely looking at how much haste it would take to form tight rotations and does not account for the sacrifice of other stats to achieve that haste since that varies from player to player. The OP provides a few options (with more existing) to choose from depending on their situation. It is up to the player to decide for their situation which recommended rotation to use or to modify it accordingly for their situation.

Playing MM hunter is not one size fits all as is more the case with BM and SV hunters.

chinoquezada · 03/10/11, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

The OP does not recommend 10.8% haste since the hotfix, although 10.8% may be fine. The recommendations for the Standard phase and CA phase have been updated for over a week or two. I just havent gotten around to analyzing the KS phase since I have been busy with other things and since it shouldn't affect your haste decision.

This is something a lot of hunters appear to have not noticed. It's amazing how many top hunters just read the top bolded area and failed to read further down the guide.

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Also note that FD will not usually provide the same results as recommended for the following reasons:
- The recommendations in the OP do not include latency since that varies from player to player while FD does with a default of 150ms. To account for latency, you either need more haste to perform the suggested rotation, or less haste and less shots in the cycle.
- FD's rules do not necessarily model the suggested rotations. It goes straight off the priority settings which can be set to somewhat approximate the desired shot selections, but it does not ensure it.

To delve deeper into this: There currently is no way of simulating (be it FD, Simcraft or otherwise) the shot cycle in which Whitefyst calculates the recommended haste. Simcraft priority system comes very close, but just that, close. So if you don't want to take his recommendations by heart, the only way to debunk them and present a better model is to look at the detailed math done yourself.
The problem with simulating this is that the premise to achieve the highest dps is to include as much focus dump shots (AS) between each CS cycle (9s with glyph, 10s without) while maintaining ISS buff and at least focus neutrality. None of the simulation tools available are able to parse such logic.

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

- The recommendations in the OP are performed solely looking at how much haste it would take to form tight rotations and does not account for the sacrifice of other stats to achieve that haste since that varies from player to player. The OP provides a few options (with more existing) to choose from depending on their situation. It is up to the player to decide for their situation which recommended rotation to use or to modify it accordingly for their situation.

Playing MM hunter is not one size fits all as is more the case with BM and SV hunters.

One thing that simplifies this choice is that the 10.52% haste recommendation is easily attainable by the vast majority of hunters with 4pc t11. From the cases I'm familiar with, reforging is done mostly from mastery/haste/hit to crit wherever possible and then mastery to haste/hit to achieve hit cap and recommended haste.