Don't forget that using KC does not interrupt your 2 sequential steady shots for the ISS buff. So if you use KC as a proc burner (which I often do), you can go ss > kc > ss and still get the buff, since the attack is coming from your pet and not you. This comes in handy especially when getting a lot of procs and struggling to keep the buff up.
I have not seen this previously noted, although I haven't been paying too much attention to a lot of these discussions.
This has been previously noted and can potentially be beneficial for some people; however, practically speaking, I do not think it is really worthwhile for most folks to interrupt their SS pair cast to try to squeeze in a KC to utilize a T12 4-set proc that has occurred since after they started casting the first SS of the pair. It really has little to no benefit in most cases and can actually result in a DPS loss in other cases if used poorly.
See below if want more details on why.
With assuming a 2.9 speed ranged weapon (typical mid range speed and equal to AI cast time), the 10% raid buff, ISS, 3/3 Pathing, and 0 latency, the table below illustrates the time difference between casting 1 SS plus the GCD for KC and 2 SSs plus the GCD for KC/AS versus the autoshot frequency at various haste levels. Note that the haste level indicated is the combined haste level from gear and dynamic haste effects (trinket procs, Rapid Fire, Bloodlust, etc.). Note that 0% haste in the table equates to 30.3% total haste and that 100% haste in the table equates to 160.6% total haste, which is a little less than the total haste during a glyphed RF with both heroic trinket procs and 2000 haste rating on gear.
Haste %*
SS Cast+GCD
2 SS Casts+GCD
Difference
Auto Frequency
Auto Chance^
T12 4-Set Chance
0.00%
2.535
4.070
1.535
2.226
68.97%
6.90%
5.00%
2.462
3.924
1.462
2.120
68.97%
6.90%
10.00%
2.395
3.791
1.395
2.023
68.97%
6.90%
15.00%
2.335
3.670
1.335
1.935
68.97%
6.90%
20.00%
2.279
3.558
1.279
1.855
68.97%
6.90%
25.00%
2.228
3.456
1.228
1.781
68.97%
6.90%
30.00%
2.181
3.362
1.181
1.712
68.97%
6.90%
35.00%
2.137
3.274
1.137
1.649
68.97%
6.90%
40.00%
2.096
3.193
1.096
1.590
68.97%
6.90%
45.00%
2.059
3.117
1.059
1.535
68.97%
6.90%
50.00%
2.023
3.047
1.023
1.484
68.97%
6.90%
55.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.436
69.64%
6.96%
60.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.391
71.89%
7.19%
65.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.349
74.13%
7.41%
70.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.309
76.38%
7.64%
75.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.272
78.63%
7.86%
80.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.237
80.87%
8.09%
85.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.203
83.12%
8.31%
90.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.171
85.37%
8.54%
95.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.141
87.61%
8.76%
100.00%
2.000
3.000
1.000
1.113
89.86%
8.99%
* Additional haste from gear and dynamic effects combined (haste from ISS, raid buff, and Pathing already included at 0% amount)
^Depending on the timing of when the previous autoshot occurred, the chance that the next autoshot would occur in time between the 1 SS and KC and 2 SS and KC/AS cases
As can be seen, until your SS casts are GCD limited, the chance that an autoshot would occur during the 2 SS + GCD case that would not have occurred during the 1 SS +GCD case is a constant 69%. With assuming a 10% chance that a T12 4-set proc would occur on that autoshot if it occurred, then there is a constant 6.9% chance for a T12 4-set proc.
Once your SS cast becomes GCD limited, then the chance for an extra autoshot and resulting T12 4-set proc to occur increases to a whopping 9% chance.
Now you may think that a 7% to 9% chance to get an extra T12 4-set may be very beneficial, and that may be true, but you have to put the occurrences of these cases into context of an actual fight. Thus, you need to account for the following:
1) KC is only a possible option to utilize the T12 4-set proc in place of our regular focus dump when that focus dump is AS. When our focus dump is AI, we do not want to be wasting the proc on lower damage, lower focus costing, and no secondary benefits KC over higher damage, higher focus costing, and secondary benefits AI. Thus, this limits the situation to only the parts of the fight when we would be using AS as our focus dump. With more haste on gear and haste trinkets, the amount of the fight where we would be using AS as our focus dump is shrinking. For some players its almost never, for others at the other end of the spectrum, it is at most about 50% of the time.
2) Ignore the high haste cases in the table where your SS is GCD capped and the chance for the extra T12 4-set proc is higher. These are all cases where we would usually be using AI as our focus dump (note that AI cast time is below the 1.8s guideline at less than 25% haste in the table, which is more than 25% haste away from your SS becoming GCD capped). Thus, the constant 6.9% chance is what is applicable.
3) Assuming a balanced AS focus dump CS cycle of CS-AS-SS-SS-AS-AS-SS-SS, the option to squeeze in a KC between SSs is not beneficial in all cases. It is a decent option over the first SS pair where the remaining part of the cycle can be adjusted, but it is not a decent option over the second SS pair since it would result in pushing your CS cast back a GCD and using the T12 4-set proc on KC instead of the better option of CS. Thus, this reduces the number of beneficial occurrences down by half. There is really no order of a tight AS focus dump cycle where it would be beneficial to possibly insert a KC between both SS pairs. Hence, if the fight is 5 mins long, at most over 2.5 mins of it you will be doing an AS focus dump CS cycle for at most 15 CS cycles. With at most one opportunity for this situation per cycle, that is 15 possible occurrences. With a 10% chance that the previous autoshot was a proc and the 6.9% that this autoshot is a proc and occurs in the window, you are looking at on average an expected value of 0.1 occurrences per fight. Sure with randomness you could get multiple occurrences in a fight, but you are much more likely to get no benefit from this strategy.
4) Between MMM AI procs and T12 4-set procs and current haste levels, our focus should already be well balanced on an AS focus-dump cycle. Thus, there really is no focus benefit in most cases to getting a second T12 4-set proc in the same CS cycle. In most cases, that focus will just be wasted if still maintaining ISS. The only possible benefit to the situation is the damage benefits of replacing of an AS with a KC, which the previous post stated is currently pretty much a push as best.
•2P -- Steady Shot and Cobra Shot generate double the amount of focus.
•4P -- Your Arcane Shot ability has a chance to grant 25% haste to you and your pet for 10 sec.
The hunter T13 tier bonuses are pretty interesting for MM. Both seem powerful, but without knowing more about the 4P (trigger mechanism, chance, etc.), it seems like the two pieces are counter productive.
I have not checked it out in my spreadsheet yet to see the impact to the rotations, but double focus per steady shot is 36 more focus per cycle from just the minimum 4 SSs to maintain ISS. That should result in a balanced AS focus dump cycle with just the 4 SSs. When using AI as the focus dump, with normal static haste levels, 2 SSs along with the regen over the AI cast will more than make up for the AI casts focus cost. This makes the T13 2P more powerful than T12 4P when performing an AS focus dump rotation and pretty close to almost as powerful during an AI focus dump rotation depending on the frequency of procs. Hence, I believe we will be dumping the T12 4P as soon as we get the t13 2P.
The 4P seems powerful as well, but I need to know more about its mechanics to say for sure how it will affect the CS cycles. My first guess is that the 4P is counterproductive. Between the T13 2P and higher static haste levels resulting in us being able to cast more AIs more often, we are going to normally be casting less AS to naturally get the 4P bonus. Hence, the bonus may result in us casting ASs when we normally would choose otherwise. Furthermore, when we get the haste from the bonus, we will want to be casting AIs again. Hence, there seems to be some type of need to cast AS to get the bonus then focus dump with AIs while its up or until its off ICD (if any) and then use ASs to try to proc it again. How worthwhile this is to do when hasted with fast cast AIs already and in general will depend on better knowledge of the mechanics of the 4P.
Agreed. Looks like they were trying to make a one size fits all set bonus and didn't think about how it would work specifically for marks. Would be perfect if it proc'd off aimed shot.
Regarding the contradiction of the 2pc and 4pc, one way to look at it would be whether it's worth pursuing 100% ISS uptime when you already have 4pc proc granting you 25% haste for the next 10 seconds. Once you get the proc, you may be content just steadying enough to stay focus neutral/positive while using the haste to dump AI and CS - then sneaking in your 2 steadies to get ISS back up before the 4pc proc expires, and then fishing for another proc with AS.
Not the most well matched pair of bonuses, but it does look like fun to play with.
We are very unlikely to be able to push our haste from gear low enough for StS to not drop below GCD while both ISS and 4pc are procced (honestly we may not be able to drop haste low enough for that even without the 4pc), so while having both up is certainly better, having just the stronger effect up would satisfy all the requirements of just ISS up, and the gains of having both up are just to autoshot/WQ/AI, not StS or chimera (and MMM procs as a 2nd order effect since we'd need more StS to keep both up).
Anyone else noticing a bug with T12 4pc proc? It seems like it 'double' procs now, where you can fire off two free shots before the buff is consumed (sometimes three on bosses like Ragnaros, where your shots have a longer travel time.)
Anyone else noticing a bug with T12 4pc proc? It seems like it 'double' procs now, where you can fire off two free shots before the buff is consumed (sometimes three on bosses like Ragnaros, where your shots have a longer travel time.)
I just came here to post about this actually, had a lot of time to play around with it tonight in Firelands. Burning Adrenaline is now consuming when your shot hits the target, rather than when a shot is fired. This has the advantage now to being able to double dip on procs, and in some situations (for example on Ragnaros due to the longer than normal travel time) you can even triple dip with free shots.
Works most effectively with Aimed Shot + Chimera or Arcane, if properly maximized this is a very interesting change. The only downside to the change is that if Burning Adrenaline procs while a focus-costing shot is mid-flight it will consume the proc to no benefit when it hits the target, but I didn't have this occur nearly as often as I was able to take advantage of a double-dip.
I was also able to take advantage of this while multi-shotting if I was at max-range.
Anyone else noticing a bug with T12 4pc proc? It seems like it 'double' procs now, where you can fire off two free shots before the buff is consumed (sometimes three on bosses like Ragnaros, where your shots have a longer travel time.)
"I can repeat this using Aimed Shot, Chimera Shot, or Multi-Shot first, and then immediately following it with either of those 3 again, or Kill Command or Arcane Shot.
I cannot get it to trigger using Arcane Shot or Kill Command first, as they both seem it consume the Burning Adrenaline buff instantly upon cast."
This post concerns the T13 2-set bonus (T132P or 2P) only, of which I have been doing some analysis. We still have a lot to learn on the mechanics of the T13 4-set, that I am not worrying about analyzing it at the moment.
Early Female Dwarf Analysis
Zererah was gracious enough to let me have a peek into her test version of FD with initial implementations of the T13 set bonuses. This version is not for public use yet since there is no gear for the T13 pieces, so the T13 set bonuses are just implemented regardless of gear. Her implementation of the T132P is consistent with how I was foreseeing it. It doubles the 9 focus gain from SS casts, but does not affect any benefits from Termination. Thus, not including the focus regen over the SS cast, each SS provides 18 focus per shot outside the Termination phase. In the Termination phase, each SS still provides an additional 3/6 focus depending on the number of talent points that you have in Termination. The fact that Termination benefits are not impacted by the T132P is an assumption that we will need to check later.
Using my current gear, here is some data from FD. Note that I am currently reforged to get my haste rating above my crit rating so that Matrix Restabilizer will always proc haste to allow AI casts during its procs.
In Test 1 FD, both the T12 and T13 sets were active, which clouds the data a little. If I had time, I could see if I could find a T12 gear set with off-tier pieces that have comparable stats, but I did not have the time or inclination to do that currently. This is sufficient for now. As expected, the T124P and T132P impact each other since they both result in additional focus with a lot of it being wasted when both are in effect.
In Test 2 FD, the high DPS benefit from the T134P buffs the other results from that case a little. In this case, I removed the T124P by replacing the T12 shoulders with the random stat shoulders version with the same secondary stats such that the overall stats are relatively consistent. It can be seen that the T132P is very powerful, and with not even including the DPS benefit from upgrading T12 ilevel pieces to T13 ilevel pieces, it is definitely worthwhile to replace the T124P with the T132P as soon as you can do so, especially since you get roughly the same focus benefit without having to worry about managing procs.
Early Spreadsheet Analysis
The following data is not meant to establish a T13 rotation since with higher haste we are leaning more and more towards a higher percentage of AI usage for focus dumps and since we do not yet understand the T134P implementation and the most effective way to apply it to maximize DPS. This data is mostly just to provide illustrations of the benefit of the T132P. It is my current belief that the maximum DPS T134P cycle will maintain at least the minimum 4 SSs to maintain ISS, perform sufficient ASs (however is required by the T134P implementation) to proc the T134P and then hasted AIs to best utilize the focus.
Looking at the 12.93% haste from gear and Pathing case during the Standard phase unhasted without using the CS glyph or any tier bonuses, a 4 SS AS focus dump cycle on average (including cycles with MMM AI procs) has a net focus of about -20. With the T132P, it now has about a +16 net focus. This means that for a 4 SS AS focus dump cycle with the T132P that focus is not a concern.
Since focus is not a concern, there really is no need to have a little slack in your 4 SS cycle so that you can accommodate a 5th SS when needed to balance focus. Thus, going back to the tight 4 SS cycle at 5.4% haste from gear and Pathing, This case goes to a net average focus per cycle of about -21 to +15 when including the T132P. Hence, even this cycle wastes a lot of focus. Normally, I would not recommend this cycle since it is moving farther away from the haste levels for ideally casting AIs; however, the 25% haste bonus from the T134P may make it a possible option.
Now let us look at the option for tightening the AS focus dump cycle going the other way by reducing our SS cast time to 1.25s. This requires 26.48% haste from gear and Pathing combined. With 3/3 Pathing this requires 22.80% haste or 2920 haste rating from gear. This is definitely too high at current T12 gear levels, but may be achievable or close enough to with T13 gear. This AS focus dump cycle has a net focus of +2, which works out well from a focus perspective. The trouble with this case is that the high static haste can devalue your dynamic haste effects.
This information leads me to the conclusion that the CS glyph will not be a good option with the T134P since it does not provide enough time to dump your focus gains between the 9s cycles. With casting hasted AIs and trying to best utilize your focus, my guess is that the average CS cycle will be a little longer than 10s. Hence, I am still currently recommending the SS/AS/RF glyphs for T13. The AI glyph may still be an option if doing more AIs; however, it may not be needed with the extra focus from SSs.
Furthermore, Term is not a useful talent at all with the T132P when using an AS focus dump CS cycle; however, it is still beneficial when performing an AI focus dump cycle.
Now let’s illustrate the benefit of the T132P during a glyphed RF during the Standard phase with the 12.93% haste case. Previously the shot numbers for a balanced CS cycle without including any tier bonuses was CS-AIx4-SSx6/7, with the 7th SS occurring only on MMM AI proc cycles. With the T132P, this cycle generates about 62, yes 62, extra focus. This means that we can add another AI and drop the extra SS on MMM AI cycles for a CS-AIx5-SSx6 cycle. This cycle has a net average focus of about -3 (about -7 total over the RF pair) and leaves about 1.23s of slack before SrS falls off on cycles without the MMM AI proc. Alternatively, if you want a tighter CS cycle, you could do CS-AIx4-SSx5 with a net average focus of about -2 (about -5 focus total over the RF pair) and on average pushing the CS cast back by 1.19s. Either way you have a slightly longer CS cycle by about 0.8s but with doing an extra AI while doing less than an SS per cycle on average. In both these cases, 1 point in Term is enough to make the cycle focus positive but with wasting just enough focus that it cannot really be used. 2 points in Term is almost enough to be able to drop one of the SSs every cycle.
I'm not sure how you can even comment at all on the T13 4pc when there's 0 information as to how it actually functions. I'm curious what is being assumed, and what basis there is to make said assumption. My assumption (though perhaps overly negative) is a 5% proc rate, modeled after the T12 Warlock 4pc. I haven't actually run specific numbers yet, but doing some napkin math, it seems to me at a 5% proc rate, it will strictly never be worth using arcane shot specifically to get the buff up (though would obviously be a nice perk if you happen to be doing an arcane shot while dodging some effect).
On the other hand, if it's a 50% proc chance with a 45sec ICD, it makes it much more worthwhile to actually try to get it up as often as possible.
Furthermore, when you compare 4pc T12 to 2pc T13, how much focus are you counting the T12 4pc to be worth? As far as I can tell from both simple math, as well as using FD, if you are sure an Aimed Shot will not be interrupted, it is always better, in both DPS and DPF than using an arcane shot. The 4pc right now allows a Chim or Arcane to follow a free Aimed, for either 72 or 94 focus (or 83 average focus per proc if you assume it goes 50/50). Is this being counted for in FD? Because as far as I understand the live version does not.
Granted, I understand there's a lot of speculation at the moment, and these bonuses may be changed before they make it to live anyway, but I think ilvl will be the only reason to upgrade to T13 2pc (though I'm quite happy it's not a huge DPS loss to upgrade), and from a focus PoV, I don't think it's as clear cut as you're saying. Finally, I think you're worrying too much with being focus efficient, and over-capping focus is well worth doing if it gives higher DPS - and using an Arcane Shot rotation should only occur when you cannot plant your feet, or are at risk of "maybe" moving. AKA, on Baleroc, you should be dumping with AiS as much as possible, and maybe tossing arcanes in only in the last few seconds before a Countdown will be cast, just to be sure that you don't have to move and cancel your Aimed for Countdown. Most fights have movement that is very predictable in this manner. These Arcane Shot rotations being proposed all over the place that aren't even using Aimed while hasted are lower DPS than wearing T12, but people seem quite excited at the prospect of having more focus to do less damage with.
I assumed tier13 4pc is triggered on execute and the result is a successful hit.
To test the bonuses with the latest SVN version of SimulationCraft be sure to turn on PTR (ptr=1 on the commandline version) and override the set bonuses with: tier12_2pc_melee=0 tier12_4pc_melee=0 tier13_2pc_melee=1 tier13_4pc_melee=1
and specify the trigger chance with tier13_4pc_proc_chance=x ( between 0 and 1.0 )
I'm not sure how you can even comment at all on the T13 4pc when there's 0 information as to how it actually functions.
Furthermore, when you compare 4pc T12 to 2pc T13, how much focus are you counting the T12 4pc to be worth? The 4pc right now allows a Chim or Arcane to follow a free Aimed, for either 72 or 94 focus (or 83 average focus per proc if you assume it goes 50/50). Is this being counted for in FD? Because as far as I understand the live version does not.
Finally, I think you're worrying too much with being focus efficient, and over-capping focus is well worth doing if it gives higher DPS - and using an Arcane Shot rotation should only occur when you cannot plant your feet, or are at risk of "maybe" moving. These Arcane Shot rotations being proposed all over the place that aren't even using Aimed while hasted are lower DPS than wearing T12, but people seem quite excited at the prospect of having more focus to do less damage with.
First, I have not really commented on the T134P beyond stating what it is, speculating on its mechanics, and stating that we really need to know more about its actual mechanics before we can determine its impacts to the MM rotations and how to optimize our DPS around it. I also included some numbers from the FD test site, but only for the purpose of showing how the value clouds the T132P data a bit. I did not talk about that DPS number at all since it is not to be trusted yet sice it is just a placeholder implementation until the actual mechanics are known.
Concerning the T124P versus T132P comparison, I still stand by my assertion that most players will want to get the T132P as soon as possible. For the T124P I used average focus benefits with assuming a single proc per CS cycle for both types of focus dumps (since we use both as some points in the fight). Some cycles will have two T124P procs (in which case focus overcap can occur diminishing the benefit) while others have no proc. For an AS focus dump cycle, the T132P is guaranteed to provide 36 extra focus over the 4 SSs. The T124P saves 33 focus with assuming that you are good enough at managing the proc to have it consumed by CS half the time. The T132P is slightly better here. For an AI focus dump cycle, the 5 to 6 SSs, depending on current haste level, over the CS cycle are guaranteed to gain 45 to 54 focus. The T124P saves 48 to 49 focus with assuming that AI consumes it 75% of the time. These two values are pretty equal. Add on top of that the benefit of not having to worry about managing the proc and the possible inefficiencies caused of doing so and the benefits of stats increases from upgrading from T12 to T13 gear, and the T132P is the clear winner.
Now I did not include the T124P proc bug for the main reason that it is a bug that may not even be present in 4.3. If we do include it, it provides either 22 or 44 focus (depending on whether CS is on CD) per proc if you are able to execute it properly. This does benefit the T124P, but not enough to make up for proc management and upgrades to T13 gear. In addition, this situation can often result in overcapping focus, reducing the benefit of the bug. Furthermore, if you include the positive benefits of the bug, then you also need to include the more rare negative impacts where the proc is consumed by an instant cast shot in travel after its focus cost has already been deducted resulting in 0 focus benefit from the proc.
Hence, I still prefer the T132P since overall its better and provides a more predictable and manageable bonus.
Concerning the rotation analysis, I believe that either I did not express my intent clearly, you misunderstood what I wrote, or a little of both. I was not trying to specify what rotations to be used with the T132P as of yet. And I was definitely not recommending an AS focus dump only approach. I still recommend using AIs as much as possible, e.g., when cast time is below 1.8s, during the CA phase, or even with slower casts times outside the CA phase if it is safe to cast. I also recommend increasing AI fast cast uptime via methods like haste trinkets. If you read my reply to Frostheim's T13 set bonus post on WHU, you will clearly see that I am adamant about MMs still casting a lot of AIs in T13.
The analysis at this point was purely academic to illustrate the impact of the T132P on both our focus dump options. It was meant to explore some limitations and boundaries of the impact. I also fully realize that overcapping focus is not bad when it is a DPS increase, but I am also wise enough to realize that when you are overcapping focus, especially by a lot, that there is probably some mechanism to utilize that focus for even more DPS. The analysis shows that the bonus helps the AS focus dump case since you no longer ever need a 5th SS to balance focus in some AS cycles but also shows how the AS focus dump cycles have difficulties in fully taking advantage of the bonus. It also shows that the AI focus dump cycle more fully takes advantage of the T132P bonus.
"It is my current belief that the maximum DPS T134P cycle will maintain at least the minimum 4 SSs to maintain ISS, perform sufficient ASs (however is required by the T134P implementation) to proc the T134P and then hasted AIs to best utilize the focus. "
seems like commenting on it to me, and my main question is "in what implementation was the 4pc when you even tested those DPS #s and came to that conclusion. I just don't see how if our T13-4pc mirrors the Warlock T12-4pc, that it will be worth trying to keep the buff up at all, it's almost definitely a DPS loss vs not trying. That being said, it still may proc when you Arcane Shot anyway (right before a Countdown on Baleroc for instance) and will be a nice boost, but would be pure RNG at that point.
As for the current 4pc bug, the negative happens like once or twiceper raid lockout for me personally, almost always on Shannox. I can see it happening more if you're using an arcane dump rotation, but it's pretty hard to mess it up with an Ai-dump (a ~.1 second window once per 10 seconds that needs an auto shot to land with a 10% proc rate during, so it's basically a .5% chance once per 10 seconds, or you'll see it once per 30min in combat on average? Sounds roughly correct, I think a full clear is roughly 40minutes in boss combat, some of which is during CA time where it's actually impossible to not get the benefit (and the benefit is larger). Really though, it's generally Shannox where it happens due to a high Arcane Shot frequency because with our strat anyway, we're constantly moving.
And I guess my bad on the Arcane Shot thing, I see it mentioned a lot, but realistically, it's just a lazy way to play, as most movement can be planned, and you can do AiS without risk of interruption (p1 Rag and his BS knockbacks aside, but you're CA+RF for 1/3rd of that anyway). I do think the 2pc T13 is good, and worth switching to, but I think it's a little less clear-cut than you're saying, because I feel like it's going to rot more focus than T12-4pc, and you're vastly undervaluing T12-4pc with the bug (which, is a fair premise to make if you think it's fixed, or want to compare both ways incase it is). You do mention the AS focus dump cycle a lot here though, so that's probably where my misinterpretation is from.
Pardon my ingorance, but while reading through this last page between the posts concerning T13 set bonuses, you seem to state, even with the the T134P, that hard-casting Aimed Shot happens to be better. Currently I understand why this is so with T12 set bonuses while under 1.8 cast time as well, but when we reach our T13 gear it seems that a regular AS focus dump rotation would be better because of that it procs the T134P.
For instance, in a 10s cycle, CS > ASx3 > SSx4 seems like a viable rotation to be playing with outside the CA phase because of 1) With 36 focus being gained by a SS pair, this allows us to creep in an extra AS which leads to 2) AS is what procs the T134P and allows us to hardcast Aimed Shot.
Not stating that even with new Haste proc trinkets, RF, Heroism, casting AS would be better, but when you're out of CA phase and do not obtain a Haste increase, the CS > ASx3 > SSx4 allows us to maintain the ISS buff and gives us a chance to gather the haste from the T134P which can be followed by Hardcasting Aimed Shot. 25% + the average 26-27& haste raid buffed with no large CDs popped is enough to easily cast Aimed Shot then, if RNG favors you, your Haste trinket or something may come up allowing you the ability to continue the hardcast, but if not so lucky, casting a quick SS pair to keep the ISS buff up before the T134P falls off and easing your way into the regular, outside CA Phase, rotation.
Now this is what I pulled together from my head while reading the new bonuses and what we currently are able to do in this gear level, but of course with new gear means higher stats which leads to higher Haste(as I'm sure you stated) and maybe what I said might not be viable.
"It is my current belief that the maximum DPS T134P cycle will maintain at least the minimum 4 SSs to maintain ISS, perform sufficient ASs (however is required by the T134P implementation) to proc the T134P and then hasted AIs to best utilize the focus. "
seems like commenting on it to me, …
This was a speculation comment and was a maximum DPS comment in regards to our currently unhasted periods where I still believe that an AS focus dump is a viable option, although that is preferential. When hasted, we should definitely cast AI. With the T134P proccing off AS and then providing a considerable amount of haste, my current assumption is that when otherwise unhasted that we will want to use AS as the focus dump, not only because it is a good option then, but also because it will proc the 25% haste, which we can then use to cast more hasted AIs. I really do not see a flaw in this logic.
This approach assumes that it takes several ASs on average to proc the T134P. If that is the case, then it probably is not worthwhile to cast ASs when already hasted to try to get the proc with it being better to just concentrate on casting as many hasted AIs as possible during the haste period.
If it only takes 1 or 2 ASs to proc the T134P, then it is possible that we may want to fire an AS every cycle, even when otherwise hasted, to try to have higher T134P uptime. I do not know if this would actually work out as a positive action, but it is an option to investigate if the T134P mechanism procs easily.
Originally Posted by Failure
and my main question is "in what implementation was the 4pc when you even tested those DPS #s and came to that conclusion. I just don't see how if our T13-4pc mirrors the Warlock T12-4pc, that it will be worth trying to keep the buff up at all, it's almost definitely a DPS loss vs not trying. That being said, it still may proc when you Arcane Shot anyway (right before a Countdown on Baleroc for instance) and will be a nice boost, but would be pure RNG at that point.
I will repeat myself here. I did not specify the FD implementation for the T134P numbers since those numbers were not discussed in my previous post and were there only to provide the skew on how it may affect the other numbers from the test version of FD. Furthermore, the implementation is a placeholder implementation being performed on top of the T12 bonuses, so the numbers really do not matter at this time.
But since you insist on knowing, the placeholder implementation used on FD is a 15% proc rate with no ICD. Hence, it has a pretty high uptime in the FD test implementation where I have it set to use AS as the focus dump when unhasted. Is this the way the actual mechanic will be? Maybe, maybe not? But it is just as valid of a placeholder assumption as yours until we know what the actual implementation is. And none of my spreadsheet analysis assumed this implementation.
Originally Posted by Failure
And I guess my bad on the Arcane Shot thing, I see it mentioned a lot, but realistically, it's just a lazy way to play, as most movement can be planned, and you can do AiS without risk of interruption (p1 Rag and his BS knockbacks aside, but you're CA+RF for 1/3rd of that anyway). I do think the 2pc T13 is good, and worth switching to, but I think it's a little less clear-cut than you're saying, because I feel like it's going to rot more focus than T12-4pc, and you're vastly undervaluing T12-4pc with the bug (which, is a fair premise to make if you think it's fixed, or want to compare both ways incase it is). You do mention the AS focus dump cycle a lot here though, so that's probably where my misinterpretation is from.
I mention the AS focus dump cycle a lot since it is part of doing the full analysis of how the T13 set bonuses affect our possible rotations. And as I said previously, it is a preferential situation on whether to use AS or hardcast AI when unhasted. Sure you can time movement situations well usually and can adjust if you know an interruption mechanism is happening soon.
However, when your AI hardcast is relatively slow, like > 2s, then it does not really provide much of a DPS benefit if any over using AS when you factor in that you can perform 2 ASs for 1 AI, the autoshot blockage by AI hardcast, the extra WQ chances from the extra focus dump attack and possible autoshot, and the additional chance for Sic’Em or GftT to proc to provide more pet focus to increase its WH uptime. Furthermore, long AI hardcasts are more vulnerable to interruptions from having to move or interruption/pushback mechanics. One interruption can make the AI focus dump choice when unhasted be a DPS loss. Sure it has the potential to be a little better DPS, but it also has the potential for all but the most skilled players to be a DPS loss. So is using AS in this situation being lazy? Maybe legitimately from some perspectives. From others, it may legitimately be considered wise. Either way, I recommend people use whichever option seems to work best for them.
When your AI hardcast is below 1.8s, then I feel that it is sufficiently hasted where it clearly the better DPS option, but safeguards to avoid interruptions and pushback are still necessary to maintain the higher DPS potential.
Between 1.8s and 2s AI cast time, I believe the choice to use AS or hardcast AI is purely a preferential decision currently for what you feel more comfortable with performing.
Personally when unhasted at my current static haste level, if I know that I am standing still for a while and am safe to cast AI, I will do so; otherwise, I choose to cast AS to be safe.
Originally Posted by Pallysrcool
You seem to state, even with the the T134P, that hard-casting Aimed Shot happens to be better. Currently I understand why this is so with T12 set bonuses while under 1.8 cast time as well, but when we reach our T13 gear it seems that a regular AS focus dump rotation would be better because of that it procs the T134P.
For instance, in a 10s cycle, CS > ASx3 > SSx4 seems like a viable rotation to be playing with outside the CA phase because of 1) With 36 focus being gained by a SS pair, this allows us to creep in an extra AS which leads to 2) AS is what procs the T134P and allows us to hardcast Aimed Shot.
I definitely agree that with the T134P proccing off AS casts that your suggestion may be a viable option depending on the implementation of the T134P proc mechanism. It is possible that once we see the actual proc mechanism that it may be best when otherwise unhasted to use AS focus dump cycle to maintain the T134P buff as much as possible and to utilize that haste on AS. This is definitely an option that I plan to investigate and partly why I included it in the quick analysis above.
However, my current assumption is that that will not be the best option to perform. This is partly due to the fact that when hasted by an additional 25% over our static haste (this is almost a BL), AI is by far the better DPS option. Furthermore, an AS focus dump rotation is very limited at being able to utilize haste. The only shot affected by that haste is the 4 SSs.
Also this is a proc with possible limited control on when it randomly occurs depending on the actual proc mechanism. If the T134P proc is up and then we get trinkets procs or BL cast on top of it or need to cast RF on top of it, the AS focus dump cycle really wastes all of that combined haste, such that it is probably better to forgo T134P haste benefit for a bit and cast as many very hasted AIs as possible. Then once haste effects wear off to use AS to regain the T134P again.
My current assumption is that when we get any dynamic haste effect that sufficiently lowers our AI cast time that we want to use that and forgo casting ASs to get the T134P proc, unless it procs very easily.
Anyway, its all speculation at this point, but I plan to come up with and evaluate all of the options that myself and the hunter community can think of to try to best utilize these new tier bonuses.
I do find it entertaining though that two people read the same posts by me and one thinks that I stress AS use too much and another thinks that I do not enough. Part of this is due to people’s preferences but also because I am trying to throw all of the options out there to investigate.
I really was curious as to the T13-4pc implementation you had messed with. I agree my interpretation is no more valid at this point in time (I'm probably being overly pessimistic), but I was still interested in what you were using for a reference point. 15% is quite a bit more worthwhile than the 5% chance I'm fearing.
As for AiS at 2.0sec+, I'm not sure how you're getting those numbers. Any AiS dump build should be ignoring mastery as much as possible (I'm fairly certain the optimal output at even ilvl 450 gear will be 0 mastery). Personally, my AiS with just ISS+WF is under 1.9sec already (Unsure on exact # off the top of my head), and that's with a mix of 378/391 gear still (And plenty of unwanted mastery gear - tier body, both rings, neck, belt, back). When we're talking about having 4pc T13, I don't see how a 2.0 AiS will be possible unless you're reforging into mastery basically. If they follow the T11>T12 pattern, T13 will be starting at ilvl396-398. I think normal mode T13 gear will be pushing 1.8 easily.
Anyway, there are times that Arcane Shot is definitely better to use (like Rag P1 when a Wrath is coming up, Sons, WiF, etc), and I support keeping it glyphed because it's a much bigger impact during those times than the alternative, but barring class changes, the simple fact of the matter is Arcane Shot scales worse with both crit and haste than Aimed does, but better with mastery (this is counting for WH uptime w/ Sic Em...which btw, gets wasted on back-to-back arcane crits, which occurs quite frequently in an AS dump scenario). Also, from all the math I've done looking over my personal WoL files, 1 AiS completely destroys 2 AS+1 auto, even if you give the WH benefit to every single AS.
I assumed a 50% crit rate just to keep it easy and do 1 crit + 1 noncrit for each pair, when realistically that's a bit high (and thus is overly favoring AiS, but I think 50% may be reasonable for T13).
Honestly, mastery is the only saving grace for AS, and if they wanted to push us away from hardcasting Aimed, I feel like that bonus should have been a mastery bonus on 4pc, not haste.
Anyway, I guess I'm not really arguing with you, I think we mostly agree, and I agree that losing an AiS due to having to move is a huge loss, and thus AS keeps it's place on our bars. But next tier it will be strictly worse than it is now relative to AiS (pre set bonus).
As for AiS at 2.0sec+, I'm not sure how you're getting those numbers. Any AiS dump build should be ignoring mastery as much as possible (I'm fairly certain the optimal output at even ilvl 450 gear will be 0 mastery). Personally, my AiS with just ISS+WF is under 1.9sec already (Unsure on exact # off the top of my head), and that's with a mix of 378/391 gear still (And plenty of unwanted mastery gear - tier body, both rings, neck, belt, back). When we're talking about having 4pc T13, I don't see how a 2.0 AiS will be possible unless you're reforging into mastery basically.
Anyway, there are times that Arcane Shot is definitely better to use (like Rag P1 when a Wrath is coming up, Sons, WiF, etc), and I support keeping it glyphed because it's a much bigger impact during those times than the alternative
Also, from all the math I've done looking over my personal WoL files, 1 AiS completely destroys 2 AS+1 auto, even if you give the WH benefit to every single AS.
Anyway, I guess I'm not really arguing with you, I think we mostly agree, and I agree that losing an AiS due to having to move is a huge loss, and thus AS keeps it's place on our bars. But next tier it will be strictly worse than it is now relative to AiS (pre set bonus).
You will get no argument from me that AI scales better than AS. As ilevel has increased, I have been performing more and more AIs. If the T134P was not a factor, then I am sure that I would at some point be recommending AI hardcasts as the focus dump all the time, except when moving or cannot safely cast it. Keep in mind though that I try to provide recommendations that apply to a wide range of players, so I would still feel compelled to leave the AS focus dump as an option for lower geared or skilled players.
My AI versus AS unhasted is from current tier of gear since that is all for which I currently have the data. As I do with each new tier, I will update the analysis in the guide using pieces from that new tier once those pieces are available and stable for analysis.
The current data is the guide is not from a mastery build. A mastery build is really only useful for MMs for heavy AoE fights, where WQs are plentiful off of the MSs. For single target fights, having mastery is useful, but it is the lowest priority secondary stat. The tradeoff is really between haste and crit. Do you go higher haste so that you can cast more AIs more often, or do you go higher crit so that every shot you make hits harder on average and so that we take better advantage of all of our skills and talents that benefit from crit.
From my observations, the 378 ilevel seems to be a rough tipping point between the two, especially when you factor in the haste trinkets. Prior to 378 ilevel, I recommended a crit build with just enough haste to have a tight AS cycle when unhasted. With higher than 378 ilevel, I lean more towards a haste build to increase the situations where casting AI is the better option. My belief is that stats on T13 gear will provide sufficient haste to be able to perform AIs more often and reliably such that we can start stacking crit again.
To your version of the analysis, a 50% crit is definitely a gross assumption for current gear that skews the data a lot. If you have a haste build to accommodate more AI casts, then your crit rate is probably less than 42% even in full heroic gear. That crit rate may be feasible in T13 gear though. That extra crit rate definitely skews the result in favor of AI, especially when factoring the PS benefit.
[/quote]However, my current assumption is that that will not be the best option to perform. This is partly due to the fact that when hasted by an additional 25% over our static haste (this is almost a BL), AI is by far the better DPS option. Furthermore, an AS focus dump rotation is very limited at being able to utilize haste. The only shot affected by that haste is the 4 SSs.Also this is a proc with possible limited control on when it randomly occurs depending on the actual proc mechanism. If the T134P proc is up and then we get trinkets procs or BL cast on top of it or need to cast RF on top of it, the AS focus dump cycle really wastes all of that combined haste, such that it is probably better to forgo T134P haste benefit for a bit and cast as many very hasted AIs as possible. Then once haste effects wear off to use AS to regain the T134P again.[/quote]
Yes, what I meant when I posted that ideal rotation for staying focus positive, was that to ONLY do that when you are not under dynamic haste effects or a trinket because as you've stated many times was that AI Hardcast is a better option especially when you have several Haste effects on top of one another. What I was aiming more towards was to use that rotation and then the instant you receive a T134P proc you switch back to AI Hardcast. Just as one would when their trinket would proc.
Also what you've stated many times was the way the proc works. When I posted that I did have in mind that we don't know enough information to accurately judge whether we should use AS as a focus dump more often and ignore it during other large haste effects to keep up time on hardcasting AI, but if it's an easily achievable proc then I believe one or two at the end of the buff sounds like a good option to maintain the T134P buff to give us maximum benefit on AI hardcast time.
Although this is the 4.2 Marksmanship Guide, I'm posting this here as it seems relevant to the current conversation regarding upcoming changes on when to break T12-4pc.
Not worth putting stock in meaningless data-mined stuff, it also says nonsense like Cobra Shot and Steady Shot cast times were increased from 1.5sec base to 2sec base. Basically just don't pay attention to data-mined spell tooltips.
They just probably added the hidden .5 cast time to the tool tip.
Since this does not apply to instant attacks, for hunters it only really applies to Aimed Shot, Steady Shot and Cobra Shot. Prior to the 4.0.6 changes, Aimed Shot was listed with a 3.0 cast time, but due to the delay, in reality it had a cast time that amounted to 3.5 seconds. Now that it is listed at 2.4 seconds, the actual cast time is now closer to 2.9, which is where we want it to be. We realize this caused some confusion (even for us), and we’re going to see if we can make the 0.5 second delay more visible in the future.
40% proc rate is very good. Using a binomial distribution, we can expect on average to get a proc every 2 ASs (64% chance for at least one proc) and are pretty much assured of a proc in 5 ASs (92%).
The fact that it can take more than 1 AS to get the proc probably precludes trying to get it at the start of the fight during the CA phase; however, that also depends on how long the CA phase is. However, with having a 40% chance to proc with a single AS, it may be worthwhile at the start of the fight when we have a full focus bar to cast 1 AS just for the chance for the proc and then start performing the CA cycle as normal. If you have haste trinkets, you are probably already sufficiently hasted at the start of the CA phase where this option really is not worthwhile (30s of glyphed RF and Matrix Restabilizer is probably enough haste already with AI casttime below 1.2s).
It also probably precludes worrying about it anytime we already have other sources of dynamic haste and would normally be casting AI.
For MMs, this 4-set really only seems applicable in situations where we have no other source of dynamic haste and could be using AS as the focus dump or when we are on the move and using AS. Then ideally as soon as we get the proc we use AI as the focus dump (if not moving) until the proc clears and then go back to business as usual (using either AI or AS as our focus dump unhasted depending on preferences and setup) until the proc is off ICD, at which point we cast ASs again to get it.
40% proc chance is quite impressive. I guess my assumption was in fact too pessimistic. Assuming it has to have a long ICD, I don't see it worth using during CA, just use the RF like you mentioned, and as soon as you're out of other haste effects, try to proc it.
The more interesting thing to me is how this is going to affect DPS on movement heavy fights. If it's that high of a proc rate (or higher), on something like World in Flames, it may be better DPS to sit in fox and spam steady even at cap focus if the set bonus is off GCD, then just Arcane the last 2-3 GCDs of World in Flames. I'm not sure Arcane Shot is worth using over steady early in a WiF where you can't even make good use of the haste buff. Too lazy to do the math atm though, and I may very well be wrong.
It will definitely be worth at least tracking the ICD, and using Arcane Shot assuming it's off ICD and you are not hasted from some other source.
09/16/11, 3:05 PM
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