[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide - Page 27

silverzz · 04/30/11, 2:39 PM

A reason might be is if you go Interface->Combat at the bottom they added a new default option called Cast action keybinds on key down. What this does is make it where if you push 1 you don't have to take your finger off the keyboard to cast the spell. It makes casting faster but it's hard to get used(I only use it for pvp). See if disabling that helps.

Question: I just got 4pc on my hunter and the guide suggests doing CS->AIx2>Sx6. I dont see how this is possible to do a chim and followed by 2 aim shots because if i attempt to do this I have to stop and wait for focus. Do I have to do this then? Or do I just not have enough haste for this to be possible(9% from gear)?

sean2358 · 04/30/11, 8:15 PM

Pre-4.1 a well known trick used when available was the fact that a hardcast Aimed shot (not talent proc for instant) that had a delayed "Fire!" proc mid-cast would not consume focus, but also not consume the proc. This is now fixed post 4.1, tanstaafl (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch for non-heinlein fans)

edit: behavior is dating to older patch of long past, regarding greater than tooltip maximum SrS duration by means of non-clipping added to CS refreshing. Thanks Tobin for the correction.

Likewise, gearing availabilty has shifted with the addition of crafted sockets in gear (waist in particular) as well as Al'akir's updated loot tables including random enchant neckpieces and cloaks, extending our potential pool in terms of stat balancing.

Will edit mention of drops if I overlooked in the 4.1 guide updating, and request confirmation of "free" aimed behavior changed from pre-4.1, my server is not very theory or math oriented with notable exceptions.

Macloud · 04/30/11, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by silverzz

A reason might be is if you go Interface->Combat at the bottom they added a new default option called Cast action keybinds on key down. What this does is make it where if you push 1 you don't have to take your finger off the keyboard to cast the spell. It makes casting faster but it's hard to get used(I only use it for pvp). See if disabling that helps.

It's already been established that that new option isn't the problem. The problem is some new Keypress and GCD delay that has only come up since this new patch was released on live servers. As of this morning with rolling restarts, the issue is still quite present, and it's been documented on a few bug threads on the official WoW forums on both the US and European servers. It's something on Blizzard's end that they have yet to acknowledge and/or fix.

Taelan · 05/01/11, 1:52 AM

Originally Posted by Crucifer2005

If that were true you wouldn't have comments like "Replace the 2nd AS with Kill Shot/Instant AI" after the rotation because if you did something like a CS-AI-SSx2-AI-SSx2 (which has been a rotation in this thread in the past) You wouldn't be focus starved enough to have to replace anything with Instants since they cost no Focus.

It seems hes intending CS-AIx2 to be the rotation and its ridiculous.

No, Xoran's right. You're taking those rotations way too literally. It's saying to replace the Arcane with a Kill or Instant AI because both do more damage than the Arcane Shot would have, and you won't delay Chimera by throwing in another GCD.

"Replace the 2nd AS with Kill Shot/Instant AI" would just mean something along the lines of CS-SSx2-AS-SS-KS-SSx2 rather than CS-SSx2-AS-SS-AS-SSx2 during normal phase unhasted.

♦ Tobin · 05/01/11, 2:24 AM

Originally Posted by sean2358

Another 4.1 oddity request for confirmation, SrS duration 17s or 18s and above noted in some cases when refreshed early with CS, potentially this can resolve some timing gaps in rotations and/or reduce any leftover clipping issues still left.

It's been like that at least since 4.0. When you refresh SrS with Chimera, the duration gets reset to 15 seconds plus the time until the next tick. So potentially you might see a duration of 18 seconds, but I usually see 16-17.

silverzz · 05/05/11, 1:03 PM

New tier set bonus.
Hunter 2 Pieces - Your Steady Shot and Cobra Shot have a 10% chance to trigger a Flaming Arrow, dealing 0% instant weapon damage as Fire.
Hunter 4 Pieces - You have a 10% chance from your autoshots to make your next shot cost no focus.

I wonder if this 4pc in normal t12 is good enough to beat heroic t11 set

Taelan · 05/05/11, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by silverzz

Hunter 2 Pieces - Your Steady Shot and Cobra Shot have a 10% chance to trigger a Flaming Arrow, dealing 0% instant weapon damage as Fire.

Wowhead has Flaming Arrow as 80% weapon damage for now.

alienangel · 05/05/11, 2:31 PM

If it's 80% damage, the new 2pc sounds decent if boring for a 2pc. 4pc seems rather meh for MM though - I think it would just amount to getting some extra arcane shots in now and then - we still have to do pairs of steadyshots to keep ISS up, and the steadyshots all take longer without 4pcT11, so we are somewhat GCD limited. Chimera Shot has a fixed cooldown, so if we get lucky the clearcasting proc gets used on the Chimera we were about to do, and we can use the focus saved to get in a couple of extra arcane shots on that cycle. But if CS is already on cooldown the proc gets used on one free AS since we can't save it, and the timing of this may or may not be such that we don't have time to later replace an StS with an AS. Not sure if it would change things enough to make it worth hardcasting an AiS outside of dynamic haste situations, especially in a rotation crowded by the longer StS casttimes.

4PC sounds like it could be quite nice for BM and SV though, since free arcanes fit in nicely without having to maintain ISS.

Also all the offset mail so far seems to be stacked in mastery instead of haste, waiting to see what the tier set stats are like.

Wonder if the bonuses are final or not, they seem to vary in power quite a lot (e.g. the Warrior and Warlock ones sound really good).

mako · 05/05/11, 2:58 PM

The 4p seems like an innovation based on the MMM bug/exploit. Using aimed as a focus dump instead of arcane, the proc is worth 44-50 focus, which is rather significant.

Unless the bonus gets eaten by steady (shouldn't, as that would make no sense) it'll be fairly good for marksman as well.

Whitefyst · 05/05/11, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by silverzz

New tier set bonus.
Hunter 2 Pieces - Your Steady Shot and Cobra Shot have a 10% chance to trigger a Flaming Arrow, dealing 0% instant weapon damage as Fire.
Hunter 4 Pieces - You have a 10% chance from your autoshots to make your next shot cost no focus.

I wonder if this 4pc in normal t12 is good enough to beat heroic t11 set

Concerning the 2-set bonus, it should benefit SV the most considering that their mastery should increase the fire damage while SV hunters do almost as many CoS as MMs do SSs. It will still be a nice bonus for MM hunters considering the number of SSs that we do and considering it that the current T11 2-set bonus is poor for us. It will obviously be a benefit to BM hunters too over the current T11 2-set, but I anticipate BMs getting the lowest benefit from it due to their lower number of CoSs, although their higher AP may make up for that.

Concerning the 4-set bonus, it is very interesting and may possibly result in major impacts to the rotations similar to how Sic'Em procs timings affect out pets DPS. First, losing the T11 4-set bonus will obviously impact our rotations with no longer having the reduced SS base cast time and reverting us back to the pre-T11 4-set rotations with less specials per CS cycle and less chances for WQ procs.

I assume that the 4-set logic will only use up the proc on shots that actually cost focus, which are usually CS, AS, AI, and MS. But it will probably also be consumed by abilities such as Trap Launcher, Revive Pet, Serpent Sting, Tranquilizing Shot, and Widow Venom. With the low focus cost of Trap Launcher and Widow Venom, it is not ideal to use up procs on those abilities if it can be avoided, but that is not a large concern since we do not use those abilities too often. AS, SrS, and TS all have similar focus costs, and having the proc used up on them is not bad. But the biggest bang for the proc is to use it up on our two biggest focus costing shots, CS and AI, or on MS while AoEing (although more often than not the proc will affect half cost MSs if you have Bombardment instead of full focus cost MSs).

Considering that with current haste amounts that on average we should be doing 4 to 5 autoshots every CS cycle, it should take about 2 to 2.5 CS cycles to proc the 4-set bonus on average. If the procs occurs close to CS coming off CD, then in most cases we will probably want to wait for CS to come off CD so we can use the proc up on it. However, if we are not close to CS coming off CD, then it will be a bigger DPS hit and focus waste to not cast focus costing shots to save the proc for CS usage. In these situations, it is best to use the proc on our focus dump. The question is whether to change our focus dump to consume the proc to being an AI hardcast instead of a AS. The answer will probably depend on many factors including on what haste on gear is ideal once we get the T12 4-set, whether we are under dynamic haste conditions, the AI to AS damage ratio at that gearing, and whether needing to move or possibly being interrupted/pushback may occur during an AI cast if performed at that time.

So, as you can see, for those wanting to optimize their DPS, they will need to monitor this proc and make quick decisions on how to best use it. However, even with monitoring, the timing of an autoshot hitting the target and the proc occurring to when you may already be casting a focus shot, may not allow you to make a decision in many cases. But definitely if the current shot you are casting/about to cast is an SS when the proc occurs, you will have the chance to make a decision on how to use it.

Even for those who do not want to or cannot monitor the proc for DPS optimization, you will still see a benefit by just performing your rotation as normal.

If I assume that the proc will be used up on a CS half the time, AS about about 3/8ths the time, and AI 1/8th the time, that works out to an average focus savings of the following per proc (assuming no AI glyph):

44 * 0.5 + 22 * 0.375 + 50 * 0.125 = 36.5 focus

With this occurring just once every 2 to 2.5 cycle on average, this is just an average benefit of 1.46 to 1.825 fps with assuming no CS glyph. This savings will power about 1.5 AS or 3/4 a CS or AI every 2 to 3 cycles. This is not a huge benefit, especially considering that without the T11 4-set, we will not have as many extra GCDs to spend on specials, but it will allow us to have to switch between a max focus cycle and a focus regen cycle less often by allowing use to replace extra SSs sometimes with ASs.

Personally, with either the randomness of what ability uses up the proc or the extra monitoring to maximize the use of the proc, I do not think that this 4-set bonus is anywhere near as appealing as the T11 4-set. One improvement that would be nice to this 4-set bonus to both improve its benefit on average as well as reduce the need to monitor the proc usage (when possible), would be for it to only be used up by our definining shots, CS, KC, and ES, which all cost higher amount of focus. With ES and KC's short CDs, that change would work well for them; however, with CS's longer CD, that change would make MMs more susceptible to losing a proc once in a while if randomness caused two procs to occur close together.

alienangel · 05/05/11, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

In these situations, it is best to use the proc on our focus dump. The question is whether to change our focus dump to consume the proc to being an AI hardcast instead of a AS. The answer will probably depend on many factors including on what haste on gear is ideal once we get the T12 4-set, whether we are under dynamic haste conditions, the AI to AS damage ratio at that gearing, and whether needing to move or possibly being interrupted/pushback may occur during an AI cast if performed at that time.

Perhaps this is what Mako was getting at, but one way to avoid the annoyance of having to watch for procs and make split second decisions before queuing an Arcane Shot would be to just hardcast AI all the time instead of just during dynamic haste. IIRC this is nearly competitive with the current AS focus dump rotation right now, isn't it? If we did that, then every clearcasting proc would be guaranteed to be used by either an aimedshot or a chimera shot, and each proc would translate into an extra AI. The downside would be that an AI focus-dump would reduce the number of autoshots present to get the procs in the first place, which might be mitigated by using ASx2 only when we have just gained spare focus from a proc. Seeing if we can keep this up without losing ISS too often at the prevailing haste ranges would be interesting.

silverzz · 05/05/11, 7:05 PM

Personally, with either the randomness of what ability uses up the proc or the extra monitoring to maximize the use of the proc, I do not think that this 4-set bonus is anywhere near as appealing as the T11 4-set. One improvement that would be nice to this 4-set bonus to both improve its benefit on average as well as reduce the need to monitor the proc usage (when possible), would be for it to only be used up by our definining shots, CS, KC, and ES, which all cost higher amount of focus. With ES and KC's short CDs, that change would work well for them; however, with CS's longer CD, that change would make MMs more susceptible to losing a proc once in a while if randomness caused two procs to occur close together.

The problem with a change like that would be they have to be forced to either put a CD on the effect or make the buff not last long or else you can simply spam your spells with not focus cost everytime.

Whitefyst · 05/05/11, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

One way to avoid the annoyance of having to watch for procs and make split second decisions before queuing an Arcane Shot would be to just hardcast AI all the time instead of just during dynamic haste. IIRC this is nearly competitive with the current AS focus dump rotation right now, isn't it? If we did that, then every clearcasting proc would be guaranteed to be used by either an aimedshot or a chimera shot, and each proc would translate into an extra AI. The downside would be that an AI focus-dump would reduce the number of autoshots present to get the procs in the first place, which might be mitigated by using ASx2 only when we have just gained spare focus from a proc. Seeing if we can keep this up without losing ISS too often at the prevailing haste ranges would be interesting.

Always hardcasting AI is definitely an option on the table. In addition to the reduction of autoshots performed and the lower frequency of the proc, the additional concerns are:
- One reason not to always hardcast AI is the large penalty if one or more is ever interrupted (by enemy attack or having to move) or if you may experience pushback. When these situations are highly likely, you are going to going to have to use AS anyway and use up the proc on it. However, the decision in those cases should have already been made to cast AS regardless. In other situations, you have to weigh the benefits of casting AI versus the possible costs in a cast is not completed timely.
- I have not yet determined what the recommended haste situations will be for MM once we break the T11 4-set bonus. I am not ready to perform that analysis yet since I need to see what gear options are available and what other changes are impacting hunters for 4.2. I also need to determine with the available T12 pieces, when it is best to break the T11 4-set. If the recommend haste rating is lower than currently (which is possible since if just trying to get below a 1.5s SS cast time to save 2 GCDs per cycle, only 2.3% haste from gear is required when not factoring in latency), then there is a bigger penalty for casting AI since its cast time is longer. If the recommended haste rating is higher than currently (which it would be at 22.8% haste from gear if you want to save 3 GCDs per 4 SSs), then it becomes more beneficial to hardcast AI more often. If the haste rating stays about the same (which is does about at 9.6% if you want to save 3 GCDs per 5 SSs), then the choice is similar as it is not impacted by how the AI to 2 AS damage ratio is affected by our gear scaling.

Originally Posted by silverzz

The problem with a change like that would be they have to be forced to either put a CD on the effect or make the buff not last long or else you can simply spam your spells with not focus cost everytime.

You do not need a CD on the effect since it still cannot occur anymore often than allowed by the proc effect, which is roughly about every 10th autoshot on average (or about every 7th using a binomial probability). It would basically work similar to MMM, where once the proc occurs, you have a limited amount of time in which to use the proc (this is probably how it works anyway). Any repocs before it is used, just resets the buff duration ideally (but may possibly just be ignored). With anywhere on average of 15-25s between procs and possibly being able to wait up to 8s to use it, you only would be using it every 15s at most and probably closer to 20 to 25s on average. That is hardly not costing focus everytime.

Carlaena · 05/06/11, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Perhaps this is what Mako was getting at, but one way to avoid the annoyance of having to watch for procs and make split second decisions before queuing an Arcane Shot would be to just hardcast AI all the time instead of just during dynamic haste. IIRC this is nearly competitive with the current AS focus dump rotation right now, isn't it? If we did that, then every clearcasting proc would be guaranteed to be used by either an aimedshot or a chimera shot, and each proc would translate into an extra AI. The downside would be that an AI focus-dump would reduce the number of autoshots present to get the procs in the first place, which might be mitigated by using ASx2 only when we have just gained spare focus from a proc. Seeing if we can keep this up without losing ISS too often at the prevailing haste ranges would be interesting.

The other thing to possibly consider is that the 2-piece might bring KC back into play with regards to MM and SV. The former might be looking to use it for free if CS is on cooldown, and the latter if ES and BA are on cooldown. This is presuming KC, not being a "shot", is allowed to consume the proc.

Whitefyst · 05/06/11, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Carlaena

The other thing to possibly consider is that the 2-piece might bring KC back into play with regards to MM and SV. The former might be looking to use it for free if CS is on cooldown, and the latter if ES and BA are on cooldown. This is presuming KC, not being a "shot", is allowed to consume the proc.

Using KC is definitely a possibility as well since then it would be focus free and is instant cast, although it does complicate the rotation since it is a shot that you would only use in specific situations with no natural cues to use it and only it. Some thoughts on this:
- KC does do about 40 to 45% more damage than AS on average for my character. The range depends on whether I am using a Cunning pet or a Ferocity pet with the 9% extra crit chance.
- Using KC instead of AS does lose a chance for Sic'Em procs, possibly reducing WH uptime, but the loss is less than that gained above.
- You wouldn't worry about KC during the CA phase since you still only want to use your GCDs on shots that are affected by the CA buff or CS. In this phase, the procs will be used by the next cast CS or AI, which is ideal.
- You wouldn't worry about KC while under dynamic haste effects since you are hardcasting AI and would rather use it on AI instead of KC.
- In both of the previous two cases, you would use KC (instead of AS) when on the move or otherwise unable to hardcast AI to use the proc. But generally depending on the duration of the proc, it would still be better to wait to use the proc until you could hardcast AI or cast CS.