[Cataclysm] 4.3 Marksmanship Guide - Page 28

alienangel · 05/06/11, 3:36 PM

The thing with KC is that I just don't see being able to notice the buff in time to use it fairly often - it is something that procs on an autoshot landing, which can happen pretty much at any point of our rotation. If it happens to proc while we're casting steadyshots, fine, we can see it and will probably use it on a CS unless we're in danger of capping focus while CS is still on cooldown, in which case we can use it on a KC instead. If it procs after CS though or before CS if we happen to be firing ASs to dump focus or because we're moving, a lot of the time it will just be consumed by an AS that was queued up during the preceeding StS, or by an AS we didn't manage to stop ourselves firing when the proc flashed up a 10th of a second before we pressed AS.

Whitefyst · 05/06/11, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

The thing with KC is that I just don't see being able to notice the buff in time to use it fairly often - it is something that procs on an autoshot landing, which can happen pretty much at any point of our rotation. If it happens to proc while we're casting steadyshots, fine, we can see it and will probably use it on a CS unless we're in danger of capping focus while CS is still on cooldown, in which case we can use it on a KC instead. If it procs after CS though or before CS if we happen to be firing ASs to dump focus or because we're moving, a lot of the time it will just be consumed by an AS that was queued up during the preceeding StS, or by an AS we didn't manage to stop ourselves firing when the proc flashed up a 10th of a second before we pressed AS.

Well for now, I am going to assume that the proc wil not apply to KC since it is not a shot; however, for BMs sake, I hope the proc does apply to it.

Concerning the focus usage with this proc, here is a quick a dirty analysis for the Standard phase. This repeats some of the information discussed previously, but it reiterated here for a fully followable story.

To get this 4-set bonus, we have to give up our T11 4-set bonus which increases our base SS cast time and results in us being more GCD limited, resulting in less shots to be able to utilize this extra focus. With assuming only 4 SS per CS cycle, MMs will only need 2.3% haste from gear to get our SS cast to 1.5s to save 2 GCDs per cycle, or MMs will need 22.8% haste from gear (not recommended for many reasons) to get the SS cast down to 1.25s and save 3 GCDs per CS cycle.

In the more resonable case of the 1.5s SS cast time, that only leaves 3 GCDs per cycle besides the CS without the CS glyph and 2 GCDs with the CS glyph. I assume we will not want to use the CS glyph with T12 gear. Hence, that’s 3 GCDs, with assuming all 3 are ASs for maximum DPS.

Looking at the focus balancing of this CS-AS-SSx2-ASx2-SSx2 max DPS rotation, there is about a net 21 focus decay every cycle even with factoring in the focus savings from a MMM AI proc about every other cycle. Without the T12 4-set focus savings, this focus decay requires a focus regen cycle. This cycle fires a 5th SS in place of one of the ASs and pushes back the CS cast by 0.5s. The 5th SS cycle has a net focus of about +12. Hence, on average you need to perform 2 focus regen cycles for every max DPS cycle to balance focus. This results with 1s CS cast delay building up over every 3 rotations.

This defines what I see as being the base rotation for MMs post T11 4-set, just as it was prior to the 4-set.

The next question is how often do we anticipate to get the proc. At 2.33% haste from gear (will actually have a little higher but looking at the limiting case) and not including in dynamic haste effects, the autoshot rate is about 2.25s. The 10% proc rate means once again that it takes 7 to 10 shots for a proc depending on how its modeled. This means that we should get a proc roughly every 16 to 23s. To simplify the discussion, I will 20s since it is in the middle and a multiple of the CS CD. Hence, we can assume to get a proc about every other CS cycle on average.

The next factor is on which focus costing shot is the proc consumed. Let us assume AS to begin with as the worst case and since we perform more of them. This means that every other cycle we will save 22 focus, which is just enough to counteract the focus decay of the max DPS cycle. Hence, if we are doing a max DPS cycle every cycle, the net focus decay would now be around 11 focus average over 2 cycles due to one having the proc. Since the focus regen cycle has a net gain of 12 focus, this means that using the proc on an ASs shifts the ratio of max DPS cycles to focus regen cycles from 1 to 2 to now be 2 to 1. This means that our CS cast should now be delayed only by 0.5s every 30s.

If the proc is consumed by a CS instead, that max DPS cycle actually gains 23 focus counteracting the normal 21 focus decay of the max DPS cycle. Thus, if the proc occurs every other cycle and is used by a CS, we can always perform our max DPS cycle with the minimum 4 SSs and not delay our CS casts due to extra SSs to regain focus.

So ideally, we want to use the procs up on CSs if possible instead of ASs. That seems obvious, but the above illustrates the actual benefits of why this is true. The question is whether the buff will last enough to give us anytime of control to try to maximize its use on CSs instead of ASs.

To estimate how much of a DPS bonus the 4-set seems to be:

If we can consistently use the proc on CS, that means more 2 ASs instead of SSs every 3 CS cycles or 30s. Using my current damage difference between these shots during the Standard phase (which is a lot less than it will be in T12 gear), the damage difference is about 3400 each (this includes the fully buffed PS effect on SS). Thus, the DPS benefit is about 227 DPS. This estimate does not include the benefit of not delaying your CS cast by 1s over this period or the higher difference in T12 gear.

If we consistently use the proc on ASs, the DPS benefit is approximately 113 DPS plus the benefit of reducing CS cast delay over this period by 0.5s.

If not paying attention to the proc and just having it consumed by the very next focus using shot, then in a CS-AS-SSx2-ASx2-SSx2 rotation, there is about a 4s window for the proc to be used on CS instead of an AS. Thus, with random procs, CS will consume it about 40% of the time. Hence, the DPS benefit is about 159 DPS plus the benefit of reducing your CS delay by about 0.7s over 30s.

This is not a huge DPS benefit. It will be larger in T12 gear, but it still will not be overwhelming and appears like it may be a little worse than the T12 2-set bonus, which I estimate at 236 DPS with my 361 gear.

Nooska · 05/07/11, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

Well for now, I am going to assume that the proc wil not apply to KC since it is not a shot; however, for BMs sake, I hope the proc does apply to it.

I think that the assumption that the proc will apply to KC is not only reasonable, but should also be considered a bug if it doesn't - after all BM only use 2 focus costing abilities over the course of a fight (excluding the initial application of SrS) - KC and AS. For BM a proc will result in more AS, 1 extra if consumed by an AS, 2 extra if consumed by KC.

Apart from that, would it be a terribly unreasonable assumption that the affected shots light up and there is a blizzard aura for the proc (like instant Aimed) do you think?

Nerec · 05/09/11, 3:57 AM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

If not paying attention to the proc and just having it consumed by the very next focus using shot, then in a CS-AS-SSx2-ASx2-SSx2 rotation, there is about a 4s window for the proc to be used on CS instead of an AS. Thus, with random procs, CS will consume it about 40% of the time. Hence, the DPS benefit is about 159 DPS plus the benefit of reducing your CS delay by about 0.7s over 30s.

To take a optimal focusreg rotation it seems CS-AS-SSx2-AS-SSx3 will perform the best. with the chain of three SS we get the most available timeframe to let the 4pc proc and use it.

The mentioned "22.8% haste with CS glyph" rotation will impossible due to lack of haste gear in 4.2, I'm right here? If it still be obtainable, a AiS rotation would be stupid due to the massiv mastery which wouldn't proc during Aim cast. Mentioned only to be sure I get the right coherences..

@nooska:
I dont think Blizzard will provide a new aura for us. *sad face* I will highlight it with PowerAuras, but does anybody know how to light up the affected shots like blizz does now? Also information for the inner cooldown were helpful.

♦ Tobin · 05/09/11, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by Nooska

I think that the assumption that the proc will apply to KC is not only reasonable, but should also be considered a bug if it doesn't - after all BM only use 2 focus costing abilities over the course of a fight (excluding the initial application of SrS) - KC and AS. For BM a proc will result in more AS, 1 extra if consumed by an AS, 2 extra if consumed by KC.

In related logic, I think the 4pc bonus is destined to be something else entirely if the best option for Marksman is to use BM's 'signature' damage ability. I expect it to last a little while on live realms, and then public dissonance will force a change.

alienangel · 05/09/11, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tobin

In related logic, I think the 4pc bonus is destined to be something else entirely if the best option for Marksman is to use BM's 'signature' damage ability. I expect it to last a little while on live realms, and then public dissonance will force a change.

We're getting into pointless speculation land here, but I think it's overly optimistic to think they'd change a set bonus after it hits live. They might change it on PTR if the feedback is poor, but they have a long history of not caring when particular set bonuses that make it to live are bad, all classes have had this at probably all tiers. The T12 4pc is better for SV for instance (since it should be pretty easy to ensure you use it on an ES or BA) so it's not like it's a failure for the whole class (similar to how the T11 4pc was a bigger deal for MM than the other two specs).

Whitefyst · 05/09/11, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Nerec

To take a optimal focusreg rotation it seems CS-AS-SSx2-AS-SSx3 will perform the best. with the chain of three SS we get the most available timeframe to let the 4pc proc and use it.

The CS-AS-SSx2-AS-SSx3 rotation is a feasible option, but there are some considerations to take into account with it:

1) The haste rating from gear required to make this a tight CS rotation is a reasonable 9.64%. Hence, it is very feasible even with adding more haste in to account for latency and reaction times. The nice thing about this haste value is that it is exactly the haste value to get your SS casts down to the GCD during unglyphed RFs.

2) To really maximize this rotation for the T12 4-set proc, it would be better to perform it as CS-ASx2-SSx5 so that if the proc lasts for say the standard 8s, you would have a 80% chance of using it on CS instead of AS. The originally listed rotation would only have about a 52% chance of using the proc on CS. This rotation starts at 100 focus each cycle would fall to only just above 20 focus after the second AS cast (actually higher with latency) and then recap focus with the 5 SSs. It still would maintain 100% ISS uptime.

3) At the haste rating in 1), this rotation is already naturally focus positive with a net 2.17 focus per CS cycle (or +0.217 fps). Add in the savings from MMM AI procs, and that is a net overflow of 15.92 focus per cycle. Add in the savings of the 4-set proc with using it 80% of the time on CS and occuring every 2 cycles, the focus overflow is on average about 35.72 focus per cycle (or 3.72 fps). These value are even higher with additional haste on gear or under small dynamic haste effects. This is a lot of focus being wasted, which is not necessarily bad if this is the maximum DPS case, but until we get better numbers at that gear level, I will assume we are better off spending that focus. Seriously, what good does it do us to perform extra SSs to gain the T12 2-set proc slightly more often if our rotation then will not let us use the extra focus it generates and the extra focus from T12 4-set procs since we do not have any spare GCDs on which to use that focus?

4) Less ASs also mean less Sic'Em procs, hurting our pet WH uptime and DPS. Over a 5 min fight doing this rotation (and yes, I know that we do not do this rotation the whole fight), that is 30 CS cycles and 30 AS lost. Assuming a 40% buffed crit rate, that is 12 Sic'Em procs lost. With the 3.75 extra MMM AI procs in 7), about 1.5 of the 12 lost Sic'Em procs is recovered for net loss of about 10.5. This equates to about 256 pet focus lost, equivalent to about 0.854 fps lost.

5) With more SSs, you are also more susceptible to movement and interruptions and require a possibly higher Fox uptime, which affects your autoshot and WQ damage as well.

6) With your focus not ever dropping below 20 (also 20%) with this rotation, then trinkets like Hungerer, would have a worthless "proc" effect since you would never proc it.

7) On the positive side, this rotation does result in more MMM AI procs. This will boost this rotations damage some. For a 5 mins fight where this standard rotation is performed the whole time, this rotation results in 3.75 more MMM AI procs. So the tradeoff here when looking at just the AI and SS damage versus AS damage using my current shot numbers from FD (which is not accurate for T12 gear but what I have to work with at the moment):

3.75 * (AI - AS damage since AI replaces an AS) - 30 * (AS - SS damage since doing an extra AS every rotation)
3.75 * 31440 - 30 * 3400 = ~15400 or 51.3 DPS

The numbers above include fully buffed PS effects for AI and SS.

I doubt that this extra 51.3 DPS makes up for all of the extra pet DPS from the additional 26.25 chances to proc Sic'Em and for the higher WQ chance percentage that you have at the haste rating needed for the 4 SS cast. One the other hand, the 5 SS case has slightly faster autoshots (2.1 instead of 2.25) increasing autoshot damage, WQ proc chances, and GftT.

8) The 5 SS rotation does also provide a slightly higher number of procs from the T12 2-set bonus. But we are talking only about the same 3.75 more procs over a 5 min fight doing this rotation. With the damage from these procs being equivalent to WQ damage, this results in only about 93 DPS more at current WQ numbers. This value will be less if for some reason this proc works on the magic damage crit chance and damage amount like SrS does.

9) When you enter the KS phase and have to replace an AS with KS every cycle, you end up wasting even more focus and have only one chance per cycle (either from the remaining AS or the MMM AI proc that replaces it) to proc Sic'Em, hurting your pet's DPS in the phase where it should be doing its maximum DPS due to Feeding Frenzy if having to use a Cunning pet for raid buffs.

Thus, although I will need to see the numbers with T12 gear, my belief is that the 4 SS rotation is superior. With the 4 SS rotation, the T12 4-set proc actually provides focus that is usuable. The extra focus allows us to perform always only the minimum required 4 SSs and to use the rest of our GCDs on higher damage focus consuming shots. It also has more Sic'Em procs with higher pet WH uptime and DPS. It also performs more instants, which is more movement friendly.

Another nice thing about the 4 SS rotation is that the 2.33% haste from gear requirement is so low that it is much easier to also have the extra haste from gear to account for your latency. Furthermore, (and I will need to see the T12 gear numbers to confirm this), to better take advantage of the natural amount of haste on gear that may not be able to be reforged away, it may also be optimal to drop 1 point in Pathing to top off Frenzy and possibly even a second point in Pathing to top off BD to increase pet WH uptime and DPS and possibly highly power 2/2 WH for ferocity pets.

Finally, with the shot selection being flexible, the 4 SS rotation can actually be performed as CS-ASx3-SSx4, with it dropping to about 2.5 focus to trigger Hungerer if desired if starting the rotation focus capped, which you should be doing on cycles after a T12 4-set proc is used.

Another item to point out is that if it indeed does work out that the 5 SS rotation works out better due to the extra MMM AI and T12 2-set procs, that it may actually be better to skip a focus dump at all. I doubt Blizzard would allow that.

Originally Posted by Nerec

The mentioned "22.8% haste with CS glyph" rotation will impossible due to lack of haste gear in 4.2, I'm right here? If it still be obtainable, a AiS rotation would be stupid due to the massiv mastery which wouldn't proc during Aim cast. Mentioned only to be sure I get the right coherences..

First, the quoted 22.8% haste was for without the CS glyph. Until I see numbers otherwise, I believe that the CS glyph is a bad option without the T11 4-set bonus to reduce SS cast time and with trying to maximize the benefit from the T12 4-set bonus with having more GCDs to utilize the extra focus. (I am currently leaning towards the RF glyph since at the low 2.3% haste from gear needed that extra 10% haste still does not GCD cap your SS casts during RFs - although it is close enough and will slightly go under the cap with a little extra haste on gear/Pathing and since it also helps make up for the lower haste affect on your AI cast times during RFs.)

Next, the 22.8% haste value is not considered feasible for many reasons, namely that it reduces the benefit of dynamic haste effects on your SS casts and also because of how much mastery you would probably have to give up to achieve it. It is listed primarily to provide an upper bounds on haste for tight CS rotations. This first haste point was at 2.33% haste, which provides a nice lower bound in the haste range. Thus, it is important to also provide the next haste point with that rotation as the upper bound. It is also a poor haste value to shoot for since you actually need more haste than that to account for latency and reaction times.

I by no means believe that we have seen all of the T12 gear or believe that all of that gear is in its final stats allocation to say or not say how much haste on gear will be available in T12 gear. My assumption is that it will be just as plentiful of an option as it was in dungeon and T11 gear.

Assuming that 22.8% haste from gear is feasible, I disagree that doing an AiS rotation would be "stupid". At this haste level, your static AI cast is at 1.81s (and 1.3s during unglyphed RF), which is below the roughly 1.9s cutoff point where we want to use it today. Sure you are giving up some WQ chances to cast AI; however, with all the mastery you gave up to get this haste, that WQ chance is not as high as you think. Furthermore, with how much better AI scales with gear than autoshot/WQ, that favors AI. However, this will still need to be evaluated when we see how much stats we have on T12 gear and how much higher our mastery levels are.

Anyway, I do not currently recommend the 22.8% haste case due to the sacrifice in mastery and probably crit to get that much haste and since it brings your SS cast too close to the GCD where some of the haste from RF and BL are wasted on your SS cast due to being GCD capped. On the other hand, at the 2.33% haste level, all of the haste benefits from RF (even glyphed) and BL are beneficial to your SS casts since they are not GCD capped.

Whitefyst · 05/17/11, 1:34 PM

Heads Up on MM Guide Changes for 4.2

I just want to give the MM community a heads up on some changes to the MM guide for 4.2 so that you all will be aware that they are occurring ahead of time as well as to provide some preliminary results of unfinished analysis.

First, since 4.2 provides T12 raids and gear and T11 gear is no longer end game, to simplify the information in the guide I plan to remove most information and recommendations concerning the T11 4-set from the MM guide. Since I realize that many hunters will probably still be using the T11 4-set for a while after 4.2 is released, I will still make the information concerning the T11 4-set available. It will be archived in a post in the MM thread, and the guide will provide a link to that post for quick reference for those that need it.

Thus, the focus of the guide will be current raiding end game content and gear provided in T12. Recommendations will be provided for two scenarios (both without the T11 4-set) since the recommendations will vary some beteween the cases:
1) The T12 recommendations prior to aquiring the T12 4-set bonus
2) The T12 recommendations with having the T12 4-set bonus

Since for a while after 4.2 is released very few people will have the T12 4-set, my focus will be updating the guide completely for scenario 1) with only partial information to begin with for scenario 2), if I do not have my full analysis of it complete before then. I will then add information into the guide for scenario 2) as soon as I reasonably can.

Concerning scenario 1):

- I do not yet know under what conditions that this transition from T11 4-set will occur since I do not have sufficient information to analyze it. With how strong the T11 4-set is, I do not anticipate this transition being beneficial when we have just 2 upgrades to T11 tier gear slots but not the T12 2-set yet. I anticipate the the transition will not be beneficial until either we have at least the T12 2-set and also possibly a third upgrade in the tier slots or until we have at least 3 to 4 upgrades total for the tier slots but not the T12 2-set yet.

- The rotations/shot selections for this scenario are simply those for without the T11 4-set that exist today in the guide with a couple permutations, including:
-- better overall stats making it easier to get the hit cap and desired haste points with still having higher crit and mastery
-- the T12 2-set bonus adding some additional weight to performing SSs since the proc is off SSs

Concerning scenario 2):

- I am not sure on how the proc rate for the T12 4-set is modeled. Is it like a straight probability where it will occur about 1 in 10 times on average, or is it more of a binomial probability where it will occur more like every 1 in 8 on average. I am analyzing both cases until we know more with providing both numbers, with a slash "/" separating them.
- I am in the process of analyzing the impact of having the T12 4-set bonus on the rotations/shot selections for not having the T12 4-set. The result of determining ideal shot selections for a given haste situation is very difficult since you basically have 4 separate scenarios that may happen each cycle:
-- the normal cycle with no MMM AI procs or T12 4-set procs to impact focus amounts
-- a MMM AI proc to save focus (depending the cast time of the shot it replaces, the cycle time can be changed as well as the focus amount)
-- a T12 4-set proc to save focus
-- both a MMM AI proc and a T12 4-set proc
- Which shot consumes the the T12 4-set proc impacts the situation as well
- When hasted and switching to using AI as the focus dump, the T12 4-set proc is adversely affected. Despite the fact that the additional haste speeds your autoshots, the AI casts lockout of autoshots actually results in less autoshots per cycle and less frequent T12 4-set procs. During RFs this is not a problem due to all of the extra focus anyway with RR, but during Bloodlust the situation can be a little impactive.

These permutations make it very difficult in many cases to provide a suggested ideal rotation. I am able in many cases to determine an "average" ideal shot selection that is focus negative on a normal cycle but when adding in the average focus savings of MMM AI procs and T12 4-set procs comes out to focus positive. Furthermore, which shots are replaced by the MMM AI proc and which consume the T12 4-set proc impacts the situation as well. The problem is that you will rarely (if ever) be able to perform that average rotation.

Now there are some scenarios where you can perform a consistent rotation every cycle with the MMM AI procs and T12 4-set procs actually making the cycle more consistent instead of less. I will illustrate this case at one possible haste point of the 5.4% combined from gear and Pathing to get your SS cast time down to 1.5s and to gain a total of 2 shots per 10s CS cycle.

Without the T12 4-set bonus, during the Standard phase unhasted you have the following two cycles (shot order is flexible within the focus constraints):
- CS-AS-SS-SS-AS-AS-SS-SS (max DPS cycle at a tight 10s with losing about 21 net focus per cycle)
- CS-AS-SS-SS-AS-SS-SS-SS (focus regen cycle pushing the CS CD back 0.5s and gaining gaining about 12 net focus per cycle)

To balance focus over time you need to perform about 2 focus regen cycles for every max DPS, which pushes your CS CD back by 1s every 31s.

When you add in the benefit of the T12 4-set bonus, you have more average focus available, which results in needing to perform a smaller ratio of focus regen cycles and having less of a slide in CS casts over time. The benefit though depends on whether the proc is consumed by an AS or a CS:
- If an AS, the max DPS cycle now has a net loss of about -11/-8 while the focus regen cycle gains 23/26. Hence, roughly a 5/5 to 3/2 ratio can be performed now instead of the 1 to 2.
- If a CS, the max DPS cycle now has a net focus of about -1/4 while the focus regen cycle gains 34/39. Hence, you would basically be able to perform every cycle as your max DPS cycle

The above is one of the simpler, straight forward cases. In other cases, it is much more complicated with possibly running into the following constraints when trying to perform the "average" cycle on one cycle or the other depending in what procs occur:
- No procs occur to save focus and the average cycle cannot be performed as is since it will go below 0 focus or not leave you enough focus to start the next cycle. Hence, you have to replace focus costing shots with SSs, which can cause time adjustments.
- Procs occur and there is simply not enough spare GCDs to utilize the generated focus and some will be wasted, reducing the benefit of the T12 4-set bonus.

Because of these complications, in many situations it is very difficult for me to provide a recommendation for a shot selection since insted of just one or possibly a required secondary one, there are actually 3 or many more that could possibly be performed from cycle to cycle, even under ideal fight conditions, depending on when the MMM AI and T12 4-set procs occur and what shots are replaced by or consume the proc. Due to this, in some cases I will no longer be able to provide a recommended shot selection but will only be able to say what shots you want to use and the constraints on doing so.

I am still early in the process of analyzing the new possible rotations for 4.2 and will continue to share what information I discover as I discover it.

Concerning glyphs, if you go the low haste situation, then the SS and AS glyphs will still be the primary choices. That leaves the choice for the third glyph between AI, CS, KS, and RF. From the analysis I have done so far, here is my observations on each:

AI: Bad choice in general, but even more so when have T12 4-set. We only use AI for about 30-40% of the fight, during the CA phase and unhasted, hence, it does not have many shots it affects. It is true that during the CA phase that it will save 5 focus every shot, but while under RF during that phase, focus is really not an issue anyway. Furthermore, the focus savings from MMM AI and T12 4-set procs makes the need for the AI glyph even less. For instance using the best AI glyph case, during the CA phase during a RF, you can do 3 AIs per cycle, which can save 15 focus. Well, one T12 4-set proc, which is consumed on either the CS or AI saves 44-50 focus and should occur roughly about every other cycle saving about 22-25 focus on average. Although there are some situation where the benefit of the AI glyph makes a small positive difference, averaged out it provides little benefit.

CS: At first I figured that the CS glyph was going to be a bad option since we were going to need the additional GCDs on which to spend the extra focus. However, I have found a few cases where it actually works out well. I haven't performed analysis of the KS phase yet, under which I think it will suffer or determined the overall benefit. I still think that overall the CS glyph will be a poor choice, but I may end up proving myself wrong.

KS: Although this glyph can be a benefit over the last 20% of the boss fight, I am still not a fan of it. If our rotations are already well focus balanced before the KS phase, in the best case, adding in the extra KS just increases the DPS over using an AS and results in some wasted focus. In the worst case when we are hasted during the KS phase, CS and AI casts still have priority over KS with possibly little opportunity to use a second one each cycle.

RF: This is the glyph that I am currently leaning towards in 4.2, especially if going the low haste route. With the lower 5.4% haste from gear and Pathing required, the extra 10% haste on RFs is fully usuable since it both brings the SS cast to exactly the GCD and helps speed up the AI casts (which are slower due to the lower haste amount). It also increases our autoshot rate during RFs, which will increase chances for both WQ and T12 4-set procs.

Rivkah · 05/18/11, 2:38 AM

In order to determine the usefulness of 1 pt in Rapid Killing for various fights, I did some log searching to attempt to compile a list of what "little" mobs it works on and which it doesn't. Based on my initial searching, this is what I've found:

Procs from:
Blood of the Old God (Cho'gall)
Aberrations (Maloriak)
Lava Parasite (Magmaw)
Poison Bomb (Omnotron)
Ravenous Creeper (Conclave)
Orphaned Emerrald Whelp (Halfus)
Twilight Eggs, Twilight Spitecallers and Twilight Drakes (Sinestra)

Does not proc from:
Vile Swill (Maloriak)
Stormling (Al'akir)
Twilight Whelp (Sinestra)

Updated to reflect data from Conclave, Halfus, Al'akir and Sinestra.

alienangel · 05/18/11, 3:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

I couldn't find any evidence of it proccing from the adds on Conclave or Al'akir, but it could be that none of the hunter logs I checked had rapid killing or were killing those mobs. If anyone can conclusively say if it procs off of those it'd be good to know.

I gained it twice on Conclave tonight in the middle of the fight and I was killing adds, so seems like it procs on those.

Lokrick · 05/18/11, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

I gained it twice on Conclave tonight in the middle of the fight and I was killing adds, so seems like it procs on those.

Specifically, this expression:

sourcename="Fafhrd" and (type = 1 and overkill>0 or spell="Rapid Recuperation")

shows the relevant events:

[23:45:54.456] Fafhrd Auto Shot Ravenous Creeper *2814* (O: 7490)
[23:45:54.606] Fafhrd gains 50 focus from Fafhrd's Rapid Recuperation
[23:48:04.979] Fafhrd Chimera Shot Ravenous Creeper *47133* (O: 2643)
[23:48:05.445] Fafhrd gains 50 focus from Fafhrd's Rapid Recuperation

Whitefyst · 05/18/11, 12:36 PM

With having both Bomb and Rapid Killing, MM AoE "gains momentum" over the course of an AoE situation.

What I mean by this is at first it is kind of slow. With a full focus bar we can do 3 MSs, with the first costing 50 focus and the next two costing 25 focus due to Bomb. After that they should all cost 25 most unless you have had bad luck, which is one small increase in momentum. Then you need to perform a couple SSs to both regen focus and to get ISS to help your autoshot/WQ rate on the primary target, which is another increase in momentum.

This pattern repeats until you kill your first target, which when AoEing alone will usually be the primary target that is effected by your autoshots, SSs, MMM AI procs, and the resultant WQs. At this point you receive 50 focus that powers an additional 2 MS and what often happens is that you are able to chain MSs for the rest of the AoE without having to use any other attack since other targets are dieing and return 50 focus as well.

Pinworm45 · 05/18/11, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

With having both Bomb and Rapid Killing, MM AoE "gains momentum" over the course of an AoE situation.

What I mean by this is at first it is kind of slow. With a full focus bar we can do 3 MSs, with the first costing 50 focus and the next two costing 25 focus due to Bomb. After that they should all cost 25 most unless you have had bad luck, which is one small increase in momentum. Then you need to perform a couple SSs to both regen focus and to get ISS to help you base focus regen and your autoshot/WQ rate on the primary target, which is another increase in momentum.

This pattern repeats until you kill your first target, which when AoEing alone will usually be the primary target that is effected by your autoshots, SSs, MMM AI procs, and the resultant WQs. At this point you receive 50 focus that powers an additional 2 MS and what often happens is that you are able to chain MSs for the rest of the AoE without having to use any other attack since other targets are dieing and return 50 focus as well.

The benefit is actually greater than this, as Multishot costs 40 focus, not 50. The result is 4 initial multishots, not 3. (40, 20, 20, 20). Although this talent is definitely debatable, I personally find it excellent. With all of the multishots and WQ procs, Rapid Recup procs all the time in any fights with AOE. Not only does this allow continuous multishots, it allows you to get back on the boss right away with full focus after the adds, rather than starting with empty focus, as well as a 10% boost to Aimed Shots damage, making aimed shot after AOE optimal on the boss.. Excellent talent for bosses like Maloriak, Cho'gall, Magmaw, etc.

However, it's useless on single target fights, obviously. For me it's a toss up between Termination and Rapid Killing, but I go with Rapid Killing.

Azulor · 05/19/11, 8:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

In order to determine the usefulness of 1 pt in Rapid Killing for various fights, I did some log searching to attempt to compile a list of what "little" mobs it works on and which it doesn't. Based on my initial searching, this is what I've found:

Does not proc from:
Vile Swill (Maloriak)
Orphaned Emerald Whelp (Halfus)

It appeared to proc on the Whelps from Halfus for me

[20:11:36.383] Azulor Wild Quiver Orphaned Emerald Whelp 4676 (O: 823)
[20:11:36.853] Azulor gains 50 focus from Azulor's Rapid Recuperation
[20:11:46.173] Azulor Multi-Shot Orphaned Emerald Whelp *3339* (O: 7486)
[20:11:46.455] Azulor gains 50 focus from Azulor's Rapid Recuperation
[20:11:51.476] Azulor Multi-Shot Orphaned Emerald Whelp 2523 (O: 3465)
[20:11:51.684] Azulor gains 50 focus from Azulor's Rapid Recuperation

However, it does not appear to proc on the Twilight Whelps on Sinestra (although it does proc off the Pulsing Egg).

Rivkah · 05/19/11, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Azulor

It appeared to proc on the Whelps from Halfus for me

Interesting- I updated my list. I guess the logs I checked just weren't lucky with the killing blows on whelps- there were rapid killing procs on the drakes so I assumed it just didn't proc off whelps.

It's kind of weird that vile swill seems to be the odd man out. It's also possible that's an exception but I checked a lot of heroic Maloriak logs and none of them had any procs from vile swill and they had several from aberrations. Vile swill would be one of the more useful things for rapid killing to proc from since that's the heavy AoE part of the fight.