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Old 07/01/11, 2:42 PM   #481
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by danthegreat1 View Post
For T12 another reason for switching to Kill Command is -- It does not reset your SS timer, thus you can maintain a free KC in the middle of a ImpSS refresh.
That is good to know, but I do not see a reason why we would ever need to do so...
- Whether you use the KC first or finish the SS first, the net focus consumption is the same
- The 4-set proc applies to the next focus consuming shot/KC within a certain amount of time. Hence, whether you cast the KC first or finish the SS pair doesn't matter
- There is a chance that the delay to cast KC before finishing the SS pair could result in the loss of ISS if you started the pair late in its 8s window.

The only exception is if need to do a quick move during the SS pair, am not already in AoF, and have the spare time in ISS refresh. Then it would make sense to use the KC on the move and finish the SS pair afterwards. Besides that, I really so no reason to break up an SS pair.

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Old 07/06/11, 7:07 PM   #482
danthegreat1
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Whitefyst View Post
That is good to know, but I do not see a reason why we would ever need to do so...
- Whether you use the KC first or finish the SS first, the net focus consumption is the same
- The 4-set proc applies to the next focus consuming shot/KC within a certain amount of time. Hence, whether you cast the KC first or finish the SS pair doesn't matter
- There is a chance that the delay to cast KC before finishing the SS pair could result in the loss of ISS if you started the pair late in its 8s window.

The only exception is if need to do a quick move during the SS pair, am not already in AoF, and have the spare time in ISS refresh. Then it would make sense to use the KC on the move and finish the SS pair afterwards. Besides that, I really so no reason to break up an SS pair.

I would disagree.

-If you're in the middle of an ISS refresh and your T12 procs you're wasting a single global to KC should be a dps gain. I would never suggest stopping in the middle of a cast to KC, that should be an overall dps loss.
The reason for this is simply as soon as it's used, you can proc it as soon as the next hit.

-If the fight isn't a simulation or patchwerk type fight, things tend to not line up perfectly. Having a 'known' buffer to be able to drop your KC off w/o having to lose your second SS could be incredibly beneficial.

The net focus would be the same based on the assumption there's an ICD on your T12. Yes, however; i haven't been able to find anything verifying an ICD.

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Old 07/07/11, 1:13 PM   #483
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by danthegreat1 View Post
I would disagree.

-If you're in the middle of an ISS refresh and your T12 procs you're wasting a single global to KC should be a dps gain. I would never suggest stopping in the middle of a cast to KC, that should be an overall dps loss.
The reason for this is simply as soon as it's used, you can proc it as soon as the next hit.

-If the fight isn't a simulation or patchwerk type fight, things tend to not line up perfectly. Having a 'known' buffer to be able to drop your KC off w/o having to lose your second SS could be incredibly beneficial.

The net focus would be the same based on the assumption there's an ICD on your T12. Yes, however; i haven't been able to find anything verifying an ICD.
First, I do not think that there is an ICD but I do not know for sure either.

Next, I understand what you are saying, and I consider it a preferrential choice whether to do as you suggest. However, I still think it does not really buy you much for the following reasons:

1) You are only using KC to consume the procs when you are using AS as the focus dump; hence, this option does not apply when you are using AI as the focus dump. Assuming a 5 min fight with the first RF pair during the CA phase and a second RF pair and a BL, that is 100s of the 300s fight during which this situation does not apply. Thus, it basically only applies when you are unhasted.

2) Over the most unhasted shot rotations without the CS glyph, you perform 8 shots per CS cycle with 2 SS pairs. Thus, you have a 2 in 8 or 25% chance to be in the middle of an SS pair when the proc is available to be consumed. Factoring in the 10% chance for the proc, that means the average chance to encounter this situation is 1 in 40. With assuming a 2s average autoshot cast time, that means that this situation will occur on average about every 80s. So during the 200s of unhasted fighting where we would use KC potentially for the procs, that is about 2.5 occurrences on average. This means that you have only gained yourself on average 0.25 additional procs over a 5 min fight.

EDIT: If the second SS pair is at the end of the cycle right before the CS, then you definitely do not want to use KC in the middle of the SS pair since it will be using the focus savings instead of CS and you are pushing your CS back a GCD. Thus. the 0.25 additional procs over a 5 min fight is a best case scenario. Depending on where you perform the second SS pair in your cycle, the benefit could be as low as 0.125 additional procs on average over a 5 min fight.

3) Now it is true that doing as you suggest could save a whole proc if you had "back-to-back" procs. However, most of the unhasted rotations with a single T12 proc during that CS cycle are already focus positive or close to it. Add in a 50% chance for a MMM AI proc that cycle and the cycle is almost definitely wasting focus already. If on the off chance using KC in the middle of an SS pair results in the back to back proc situation that you are trying not to waste, the odds are very highly that the proc is a wasted proc anyway with focus savings that will just be wasted, although there are indeed situations where some of that focus could be used.

In summary, although your suggestion could potentially gain an extra proc once in a while, it is going to be seldom and most likely to provide focus that is not useable. Thus, I prefer not to worry about it and to always perform my SS pairs before casting the next shot regardless of whether the T12 proc is available during the SS pair and that your suggestion could be utilized.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/11/11 at 2:56 PM.

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Old 07/08/11, 3:34 PM   #484
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Effects of Latency on Unhasted Rotation

As shown in the private message question below, the amount of haste level to counteract latency is being asked again. Since the analysis changes without the presence of the T11 4-set reduced SS cast time (and is actually better more often with longer SS cast times), I am providing an updated response here that will be linked from the latency section in the main post. Haste % in this post is the resultant amount from haste from gear multiplied by your haste from Pathing.

You state that "- Use the 12.93% haste from gear and Pathing amount with adjusting the haste level to account for latency." How much haste is needed to "fix" the dps?
Concerning how much haste is needed to counteract a given amount of latency, I have done some analysis concerning this previously with posts on it somewhere in the thread. However, the analysis is for with the T11 4-set and does not apply to without the 4-set. The trouble with this analysis in general is that it is not necessarily one size fits all since there are many factors that affect it. These include:
- A given players average latency
- The haste level (low or high recommendations) that they chose to use in game
- A player’s chosen glyphs and shot selections since this determines how many latency affected shots you are performing that need to be counteracted by the number of cast shots you have
- The fact that there is some slack in the haste recommendations, especially if your chosen rotation takes different lengths on normal cycles and MMM AI cycles where you want to somewhat balance the CS cycle delay on the longer cycles and the deadtime on the shorter cycles.
- The complication that you are not always performing the same cycle every cycle. Your cycle changes with changes in haste amounts as well as changes in the phases. Your cycle may also change in order to balance focus or in the presence of accommodating MMM AI procs. Thus, you have to chose which of the cycles to optimize.
- The cost in crit and mastery to acquire the additional haste to counteract the latency

When I optimize for latency, the cycle I use is the Standard phase unhasted cycle since that it the one we perform the most and also has the ideally tight CS cycle restriction for maximum DPS. Here is an example of such optimization for the 12.93% haste case.

Let’s assume that the cycle is performed as the following:

CS-SS-SS-AS-AS-SS-SS-SS (MMM AI procs or KCs for T12 4-set procs replace an AS)

This cycle has 3 instant cast shots affected by latency and 5 cast shots of duration that is greater than the GCD that are not affected by latency. Although it’s the 3 instants that suffer the latency, it is the 5 SSs that have to make up for the inefficiency by reducing their cast times. The table below shows the amount of haste required to maintain a tight CS cycle at a certain latency level.

Latency (ms)CS-ASx2 (s)SSx5 (s)Actual Cycle Time (s)Haste (%)Haste (rating)SS Cast Savings (s)New Cycle Time (s)Required Haste (%)
03.007.0010.000.00%00.00010.0012.93%
503.157.0010.152.19%2800.15010.0015.12%
1003.307.0010.304.48%5730.30010.0017.41%
1503.457.0010.456.87%8800.45010.0019.80%
2003.607.0010.609.38%12010.60010.0022.31%
2503.757.0010.7512.00%15370.75010.0024.93%
3003.907.0010.9014.75%18890.90010.0027.68%

As can be seen, the amount of haste required to full counteract the latency increases slightly exponentially as your latency level increases since it requires slightly more and more haste per latency increase. At low levels of latency a reasonable amount of additional haste can be used to partially or fully tighten the cycle back up. At higher levels of latency, too much additional haste is required for a tight cycle where it is probably best to utilize the lower 5.4% haste case for which the data is shown below for the 5 SS cycle, which delays your CS cast by 0.5s and is only a tight cycle on cycles where the MMM AI proc replaces the 5th SS:

Latency (ms)CS-ASx2 (s)SSx5 (s)Actual Cycle Time (s)Haste (%)Haste (rating)SS Cast Savings (s)New Cycle Time (s)Required Haste (%)
03.007.5010.500.00%00.00010.505.40%
503.157.5010.652.04%2620.15010.507.44%
1003.307.5010.804.17%5340.30010.509.57%
1503.457.5010.956.38%8180.45010.5011.78%
2003.607.5011.108.70%11140.60010.5014.10%
2503.757.5011.2511.11%14230.75010.5016.51%
3003.907.5011.4013.64%17460.90010.5019.04%

As can be seen in the table above, at higher latency levels, a more reasonable amount of haste is required to maintain the cycle at the 0 latency level.

A complicating factor here is that you do not always perform a 5 SS cycle. You often perform the 4 SS cycle if you have sufficient focus to do so. With 4 instants now suffering latency and only 4 cast shots to counteract it, the amount of required haste is higher for both haste cases as shown below.

For 12.93% haste case:

Latency (ms)CS-ASx3 (s)SSx4 (s)Actual Cycle Time (s)Haste (%)Haste (rating)SS Cast Savings (s)New Cycle Time (s)Required Haste (%)
04.005.609.60-6.67%-854-0.40010.006.26%
504.205.609.80-3.45%-442-0.20010.009.48%
1004.405.6010.000.00%00.00010.0012.93%
1504.605.6010.203.70%4740.20010.0016.63%
2004.805.6010.407.69%9850.40010.0020.62%
2505.005.6010.6012.00%15370.60010.0024.93%
3005.205.6010.8016.67%21340.80010.0029.60%

Although the 4 SS cast rotation is more restrictive in counteracting latency, the 4 SS cycle is actually more forgiving over parts of it at the 12.93% haste level since that case was designed to accommodate 5 SSs in a tight CS cycle. Thus, when you only perform 4 SSs in a CS cycle, there is at 0 latency 0.4s of deadtime in the CS cycle making it a tight CS cycle at 100 ms latency. At lower than 100 ms latency, the cycle has deadtime where less than 12.93% haste is actually required to perform a tight CS cycle. Hence, depending on your latency level below 100 ms latency and what percentage of your cycles are 4 SS cycles versus 5 SS cycles, you may not need any extra haste to counteract latency on average and may actually be able to get by with less than 12.93% haste. This is an additional benefit of the 12.93% haste case over the 5.4% haste case if you have lower latency.

For instance, from the charts at 100 ms latency, somewhere between 12.93% and 17.41% haste is ideal depending on your ratio of 4 SS to 5 SS cycles. Without the T12 4-set, I estimate that to balance focus, you need to perform the 5 SS cycle every 5 of 8 cycles. Hence, about 15.73% haste is a good amount to roughly effectively counteract latency on the average cycle. It results in a little deadtime on the 4 SS cycles and a little CS delay on the 5 SS cycles.

With the T12 4-set procs saving focus, the ratio of 4 SS cycles to 5 SSs cycles becomes higher. In the worse case of all procs consumed by AS/KC, the ratio of 5 SS cycles is only 1 of 3 cycles, at which about 14.42% haste is a good compromise. In the best case of the proc being consumed by CS, you will almost never need to perform the 5th SS, with the 12.93% haste level being ideal.

The table below provides a recommended haste level depending on your ratio of ideal 4 SS cycles to total number of cycles, where the “3 in 8” is the non-T12 4-set ratio, “2 in 3” in the T12 4-set procs used all by AS, “1 in 1” is the procs used all by CS, and “4 in 5” is a rough “middle” ground for procs being used mostly by ASs:

Latency (ms)3 in 82 in 34 in 51 in 1
010.43%8.49%7.60%6.26%
5013.01%11.36%10.61%9.48%
10015.73%14.42%13.83%12.93%
15018.61%17.69%17.27%16.63%
20021.67%21.18%20.96%20.62%
25024.93%24.93%24.93%24.93%
30028.40%28.96%29.21%29.60%

Hence, for the 12.93% haste case an addition benefit of the T12 4-set proc is that you are performing more 4 SS cycles and the amount of haste to counteract latency is generally reduced. Note that at about 250ms latency is the inflexion point for this cycle where reducing the number of SSs per cycle starts to have a negative instead of positive impact.

Note that both Termination and when KS becomes available are additional factors that result in the unhasted rotation to only cast 4 SSs in a cycle more often.

For 5.4% haste case:

Latency (ms)CS-ASx3 (s)SSx4 (s)Actual Cycle Time (s)Haste (%)Haste (rating)SS Cast Savings (s)New Cycle Time (s)Required Haste (%)
04.006.0010.000.00%00.00010.005.40%
504.206.0010.203.45%4420.20010.008.85%
1004.406.0010.407.14%9150.40010.0012.54%
1504.606.0010.6011.11%14230.60010.0016.51%
2004.806.0010.8015.39%19700.80010.0020.79%
2505.006.0011.0020.00%25611.00010.0025.40%
3005.206.0011.2025.00%32021.20010.0030.40%

The 5.4% haste case is built around the 4 SS cycle for a tight CS cycle. Thus, instead of having deadtime in the cycle with 4 SSs as the 12.93% case does, it is a tight cycle with 4 SSs and has a 0.5s CS cycle delay on cycles with 5 SSs. Hence, reducing the number of SSs in the cycle does reduce its cycle time but it also requires more haste to maintain the tight cycle.

Without the T12 4-set procs, focus is balanced doing about 5 4 SS cycles out of every 8 cycles. The presences of T12 4-set procs increases the ratio of 4 SS cycles with the required haste shown below:

Latency (ms)5 in 82 in 34 in 51 in 1
05.40%5.40%5.40%5.40%
508.32%8.38%8.57%8.85%
10011.43%11.55%11.95%12.54%
15014.74%14.94%15.57%16.51%
20018.28%18.56%19.45%20.79%
25022.07%22.44%23.62%25.40%
30026.14%26.61%28.13%30.40%

In all cases, performing the tighter 4 SS cycle more often requires more haste from gear to counteract a given amount of latency.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/08/11 at 4:08 PM.

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Old 07/13/11, 9:20 AM   #485
bjorn9486
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Aerie Peak
I've got a question regarding Haste and the Pathing talent. Is it better to stack haste and thus take the talent points you have in Pathing and place them somewhere else or should you reforge the haste into Hit/Crit/Mastery and pick up Pathing? As it looks now, the only other possible talents are either Improved Serpent Sting or survival ones Hunter vs. Wild/Spirit Bond, neither of which increase our dps.

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Old 07/13/11, 11:53 AM   #486
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by bjorn9486 View Post
I've got a question regarding Haste and the Pathing talent. Is it better to stack haste and thus take the talent points you have in Pathing and place them somewhere else or should you reforge the haste into Hit/Crit/Mastery and pick up Pathing? As it looks now, the only other possible talents are either Improved Serpent Sting or survival ones Hunter vs. Wild/Spirit Bond, neither of which increase our dps.
The answer to this is that it depends. Some of the factors it depends on are:

- Your gear and the amount of haste that you have on it. Obviously, a player with higher ilevel is likely to have more haste on their gear naturally and more options for reforging into haste than a player with lower ilevel and will have more flexibility in making haste plateaus.

- Are you going with the high haste point or the low haste point. If you are going with the low haste point, the odds are that you are going to have a difficult time reforging away enough haste to get down to the ideal amount (with factoring in your latency) that it makes sense to talent out of Pathing. If you are going with the higher haste plateau, then it requires more haste and you are more likely to need points from Pathing. Furthermore, Pathing is multiplicative with your haste on gear. Hence, points in Pathing are more valuable (worth a higher equivalent amount of haste rating on gear) when you have more haste on gear. This also makes Pathing a better talent at the higher haste plateau than at the lower one.

- With Pathing being worth more haste rating at higher haste levels, this means that taking a point in Pathing at higher haste levels allows you to be able to reforge a higher amount of stats out of haste and into crit and mastery. On the other hand, it also means that when trying to make a haste plateau that the more points that you take in Pathing to make that plateau means the less amount of haste you have on gear and the lower value of each those points in Pathing as shown at the top of the guide.

- What other talent options are worthwhile? Assuming that you are using the recommended spec in the guide but with 3/3 Pathing, here are some of the options for moving points in Pathing:
-- Frenzy: This talent increases pet DPS by a decent amount and is a good option. So using an unnecessary point in Pathing to top it off can be beneficial.
-- Termination: Topping off Termination can potentially be a DPS increase, especially if you are hasted a lot during the Termination/Kill Shot phases.
-- Improved KC: This talent is a DPS increase only if you are talented for RiF and/or are using KC in place of AS under certain scenarios with the T12 4-set procs.
-- Concussive Barrage: This talent can be very useful in some situations where need to slow/control the target. It is especially nice in AoE situations and why I have it in my AoE control spec. However, it does not necessarily provide a DPS benefit and can be counterproductive in situations where the tank is trying to move the target.
-- Resistance is Futile: Free KCs can be nice, but I am not personally a fan of this talent.
-- Improved Serpent Sting: This is a bad talent for MM and worth very little DPS. I do not recommend it.
-- Hunter vs. Wild: Good for survivability, but for good players the extra Stamina should not really make the difference on most fights, although there are some boss fights where having it can help.
-- Silencing Shot: Gets the ranged interrupt/silence back, which may not be needed in your raid, but which is a nice utility to have if can afford the talent point.
-- Other talents in BM second tier: None of these really have much benefit in PvE, with the exception being Spirit Bond, but it is kind of overkill most fights considering the much better self-heal that we have in CS.

Thus, I really cannot provide a general recommendation since it depends on your given situation and preferences. However, I can state these guidelines:

- If you are using the lower haste plateau, you are usually better off moving the points of Pathing into other talents since you are probably getting more than enough haste from gear and may have problems reforging out of it.

- If you are using the higher haste point, I still recommend at least some points in Pathing depending on your overall ilevel and haste from gear. By default, I recommend 3/3 Pathing since each point is valuable and helps to make the haste plateau. However, at higher ilevels with higher natural haste from gear, you may not need one or more points in Pathing to ideally make the haste plateau. In most cases at higher ilevel, dropping one point in Pathing is recommended, but dropping additional points depends on your situation and preferences.

- For replacement points when dropping Pathing, I recommend first topping off Frenzy for most situations and then Termination. If you have the T12 4-set and am using KC a lot, then IKC is another viable option. Other choices can be made on a preferential basis.

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Old 07/16/11, 1:33 PM   #487
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
This is notification that I have finally added in the support for the T12 4-set into the Standard phase information in both the OP and the Standard phase details post.

This may be the only specific support that I provide in the guide for the T12 4-set since:
- The Standard phase is by far the largest part of the fight.
- Providing the details for the other phases is a lot of effort for something that is easily extrapolated from the general information for a rough sense of what to do.
- The T12 4-set is only temporary, so the support for it is temporary.

If I do find the time for additional T12 4-set support, I will probably concentrate on the more unique phases. These are:
- CA phase unhasted since using AI as the focus dump instead of AS. Since we should normally be hasted during this phase, support for this is low priority.
- KS phase due to the impacts of adding KS.

I probably will never provide specific T12 4-set support for the following phases:
- CA phase with RF or BL since the rotations should be exactly the same as during the Standard phase when under the corresponding haste effects.
- Termination phase since all it does is reduce the ratio of focus regen cycles with the 5th SS.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/16/11 at 1:39 PM.

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Old 07/17/11, 5:17 PM   #488
Asrial
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Bladefist (EU)
If I have 4cp t11 359 ilvl, would it be worth dropping the set bonus if I get a 378 piece? If no, how many pieces would I need for it to be a dps increase?

Edit, I mean a non set piece.

Last edited by Asrial : 07/17/11 at 5:24 PM.

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Old 07/17/11, 7:29 PM   #489
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Asrial View Post
If I have 4cp t11 359 ilvl, would it be worth dropping the set bonus if I get a 378 piece? If no, how many pieces would I need for it to be a dps increase?

Edit, I mean a non set piece.
Replying to this question generically in the thread since the answer applies to many hunters (including myself).

With how valuable the T11 4-set bonus is, generally obtaining one replacement piece that improves it's ilevel from 359 to 378 is not enough DPS gain in the piece to make up for the loss of the 4-set. When you obtain one replacement piece, the best option is usually to use that new piece if you have the 5th T11 tier piece that you can still use to keep the T11 4-set, even if you downgrade the ilevel in the slot for the 5th T11 piece from a 372 item to a 359 T11 piece. if you don't have the 5th T11 piece, then the best option is to just hold onto the 378 piece until you acquire more gear.

Even gaining 2 359 to 378 upgrades in your tier slots may not be enough to replace your T11 4-set either (unless they are both T12 tier pieces gaining the 2-set). The answer really depends on which tier slots is being replaced since different slots have different levels of itemization. For instance, a chest piece has more itemization than a hands piece; thus, an upgrade in your chest is a larger DPS gain than your hands. It also depends on the secondary stats on the new piece compared to the old piece. If the new piece has better secondary stats, then the DPS increase is larger than if it has worse secondary stats (such as the new piece not having crit but the old piece did).

Hence, it is very difficult to provide any definitive recommendations since there are many variables involved. My recommendation is to use a tool like Rawr or FemaleDwarf to get a good estimate of whether the change may be DPS increase for you. To get a more accurate estimate, make sure that when you drop the T11 4-set that you adjust your haste level appropriately, take advantage of maybe being able to spec out of a point in Pathing, and adjust your third glyph if appropriate.

As an example from my personal experience, I have received 2 378 non-tier upgrades so far - 372 to 378 in chest and 359 to 378 in helm. Previously, I was not using my hands for my 4-set since I had a 372 off tier piece I used instead. When I gained the 378 chest, it was not a DPS upgrade for me since I only gained 6 ilevel in my chest slot but lost 13 ilevel when replaced my hands to maintain the 4-set. Even after getting the helm, the two items together were not enough to break my 4-set (partly due to having a 372 tier chest), with being about 100 DPS short after making haste, spec, and glyph adjustments. However, the 19 ilevel gain in the helm, as well as its higher itemization than my hands, was enough to make dropping the 13 ilevel in my hands worthwhile to maintain the T11 4-set with the new helm.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 07/17/11 at 7:40 PM.

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Old 07/18/11, 11:19 AM   #490
Vaeryn
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Whitefyst View Post
My recommendation is to use a tool like Rawr
Status of the latest version of Rawr (4.2.1 from July the 11th) is still "Inoperable" in hunter's section which makes that tool practically useless for us in Cata.

Last edited by Vaeryn : 07/18/11 at 11:34 AM.

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Old 07/19/11, 8:35 AM   #491
pew_pew
Banned
 
Basdasdas
Tauren Druid
 
Zul'Jin
with 3/3 pathing you say we need 1235 haste. but where is the difference to 4.1 we need 1346 haste?!

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Old 07/19/11, 8:55 AM   #492
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by pew_pew View Post
with 3/3 pathing you say we need 1235 haste. but where is the difference to 4.1 we need 1346 haste?!
The difference in the haste recommendation between the 4.1 and 4.2 versions of the guide has to do with the fact that we have a different base SS cast time. With the T11 4-set in the 4.1 version, the base cast time was 1.8s, while without the T11 4-set it is 2s. This results in different shot selections per cycle and different haste points. The haste recommendation in the 4.2 version of the guide is consistent with the recommendation in the 4.1 guide for those who did not have the T11 4-set.

It is because of this fundamental difference that I have archived the recommendations for the T11 4-set.

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Old 07/20/11, 2:02 AM   #493
Palioh
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Magtheridon
The 4 piece tier 12 is currently not affecting Arcane Shot for me. I will get the buff, cast Arcane Shot, lose the 22 focus from the shot and lose the buff. I have reported this on the bug forums, but I was wondering if anyone else with the 4 piece is having this issue as well.

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Old 07/20/11, 7:05 AM   #494
NextOne
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Throk'Feroth (EU)
Originally Posted by Palioh View Post
The 4 piece tier 12 is currently not affecting Arcane Shot for me. I will get the buff, cast Arcane Shot, lose the 22 focus from the shot and lose the buff. I have reported this on the bug forums, but I was wondering if anyone else with the 4 piece is having this issue as well.
According to the tooltip it could be a bug.

But in a BM spec, fixing this behavior would be a major DPS loss because BM do not have "shot dump" like Aimed Shot or Kill Command. I think the tooltip should be modified to say "Signature Shot"

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Old 07/21/11, 11:59 AM   #495
Whitefyst
Great Tiger
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
T12 4-Set Bonus Details

In an effort to further reduce the size of the MM guide while still maintaining good information for those that are interested, I have moved the T12 4-Set Bonus detailed discussion into this post since it contains information that is beyond what the average player necessarily cares to know and since it is information that is only relevelant for T12 content.

This post is referenced in section 4.2.2 T12 Set Bonuses in the MM guide for easy access.

T12 4-Set Bonus Introduction

The 4-set bonus is that autoshots have a 10% chance to cause our next shot or Kill Command to cost not focus. Note that this proc is only consumed by abilities that cost focus; hence, it will never be wasted on a SS, KS, MMM AI proc, or other non-focus costing shots. This can also be a very beneficial bonus since it provides additional focus to possibly use to perform more damage. Note though that the benefit from this ability does have some limitations. If your rotation over a certain fight phase already has the minimum 4 SSs and is focus balanced, then the additional focus generated by this proc could just be wasted focus. Luckily, we are not always in such situations if we ever are. Anytime your normal rotation is focus negative, this proc can help make it focus positive or at least less focus negative. Furthermore, if your rotation has extra SSs required to balance focus, this proc will help reduce or eliminate the number of those additional SSs needed. When under dynamic haste effects with casting AIs and not performing a tight CS rotation, these procs will usually power additional AI casts for more DPS.

Other additional factors concerning the 4-set bonus:
- Being under dynamic haste effects increase your autoshot frequency and number of procs per CS cycle. Thus, this bonus favors higher haste cases and the RF glyph.
- Since AI locks out your autoshot casts, you will experience less procs while using AI as your focus dump at a given haste amount.
- The T12 4-set bonus has inverse benefits to your T12 2-set bonus. Whenever we have additional focus and can take another focus dump instead of a having to perform additional SSs, we lower our number of SS casts and chances to proc FAs. One question that can be asked then is which is more important, casting an additional SS with the additional chance to get FA or AS when it is the focus dump. This question is addressed in 6.2.4 Steady Shot Spamming vs. Arcane Shot outside the CA Phase.
- When using AS as your focus dump and a 4-set proc occurs, it can be beneficial to cast KC instead if you can perform it without incurring additional reaction time delays in your cycle. This is because KC does a little more damage than AS but does not cost the additional focus that it normally does. A question that has been asked is whether it would be better to cast KC instead of AS when they costs full focus. This question is addressed in 6.2.5 Kill Command or Arcane Shot for T12 4-Set Procs.

T12 4-Set Bonus Proc Consumption

With how various shots cost various amounts of focus with a wide range in damage, the general goal, when possible, is to spend the T12 4-set proc on the highest focus costing and damaging shot as possible. The decision process depends on which shot you are currently using as a focus dump and what shots are on CD.

When AS is your focus dump, the only other focus costing shot that you normally use is CS, which is on a 9 to 10s CD. Since CS costs twice as much focus as AS, the preference is to use the proc on CS if it is off CD or coming off CD soon, with the next section illustrating methods to increase the chance the CS will consume the proc if that is desired. However, if CS is still on CD for a long time, it is usually more beneficial to use the proc on AS and start the chances for the next proc. Furthermore, if your cycle is only slightly focus negative, then it will not matter whether you use the proc on CS or AS, since either way you will lose focus. Another option is to replace ASs that would consume the proc will KCs instead since they both are instant and focus free in that situation but with KC doing about 1.4 times the damage.

When AI is your focus dump, the only other focus costing shot that you normally use is CS, which is on a 9 to 10s CD. Since CS and AI cost about the same amount of focus (within 6 focus depending on Eff and AI glyph), the preference to consume the proc on the higher focus costing shot (AI in this case) is not that important. The difference basically amounts to about 6 focus at most every about 25s or about 0.24 fps. Thus, for most players, I recommend not worry about which shot, AI or CS, consumes the proc. In addition, since KC does so much less damage than AI and does not proc Sic’Em like AI, I do not recommend using KC whenever AI is your focus dump.

4.2.2.2 T12 4-Set Bonus Impacts

In the Shot Rotations discussion in section 6.5, this guide does not usually provide explicit instructions for optimal use of the T12 4-set proc like it does for in the cycles without the T12 4-set proc. Instead it provides general impacts of the T12 4-set to the listed rotations and suggestions for utilizing the 4-set benefits. The reason for this is that there are so many variables that exist which impact how the T12 4-set proc affects your cycle which require a player to have to make dynamic decisions on how to best utilize it. These variables include:

1) How often the procs occur relative to your number of cycles since focus balancing is tracked in this guide per CS cycle. Factors affecting this include:
- Higher static haste increases your autoshot frequency and proc rate
- Dynamic haste periods and the amount of dynamic haste increases your autoshot frequency and proc rate
- Whether you are using AI as your focus dump and how often AI is used since it locks out your autoshots and reduces its frequency and the proc rate
- Whether you are experiencing any in fight factors that temporarily halt your autoshots and reduce proc frequency
- The length of your CS cycle
The number of procs that you get per CS cycle affects the number of opportunities per cycle to save focus to better balance it or eliminate extra SSs.

2) When in the CS cycle that the proc occurs. Depending on when in CS cycle that the proc occurs impacts what shot consumes the proc and what focus benefit is received. In some situations, the proc will occur at a time that allows us to make a decision on what shot to use to consume the proc. However, there are other situations where the timing of the proc is such that we have no opportunity to decide what shot consumes the proc. If the proc occurs while we have a focus costing shot queued or are in the process of casting a focus costing shot, then there is no chance to change what shot consumes the proc. In other cases, the shot you would prefer to consume the proc on since it costs more focus may be on CD for too long of a period to make it worth waiting for it and not casting any other focus costing shots.

3) The order that you perform shots in your cycle. Since your cycle contains both shots that use focus and consume the proc and shots that are focus free and do not consume the proc, the order you perform shots in your cycle impacts the probability of what shot consumes the proc and the amount of focus saved. With using the Standard phase unhasted maximum DPS cycle at the 5.4% haste level of CS-ASx3-SSx4 as an example:

OptionABC
 CSCSCS
 ASASSS
 ASSSSS
 ASSSSS
 SSASSS
 SSASAS
 SSSSAS
 SSSSAS
CS %70%40%10%
AS %30%60%90%
Avg. Savings17.1614.1311.10
Where:
CS% is the probability that the T12 4-set proc is consumed by CS
AS% is the probability that the proc is consumed by AS
Avg. Savings is the average focus savings for that option with using the average proc chance for cycle of 45.78% (derived from 10s cycle duration, 2.18 autoshot frequency, and 10% proc chance per autoshot).

It can be seen that with this cycle that there are three main options of cycle performance that affects the probability that CS will consume the proc instead of AS. These are whether you finish the cycle with both, one, or none of the SS pairs. So from the above table only, it seems that the obvious choice would be to perform option A since it saves the most focus, but that it not necessarily the best case for the following reasons:
- You may not need to save that amount of focus to end up with a cycle that is focus positive on average. In this case since the max DPS cycle shown has about a net 21 focus deficit per cycle with factoring in MMM AI savings. Hence, option A would be preferred since it gets us closest to focus balanced. However, if the focus deficit was only 14, then option B would be sufficient.
- Focus dipping constraints. If starting at 100 focus, option A dips down to about 5 focus. Thus, if you start the cycle with less than 95 focus, you cannot perform cycle A. On the other hand, cycle B has the least amount of focus dipping with only dropping to about 36 focus at the lowest if starting at 100 focus. Hence, focus B may be the more desired cycle since it can be more consistently performed and since it only loses about 3 focus per cycle on average from the T12 4-set proc from the optimal focus savings case.

Similar situations exist for each CS cycle with different shot selections.

4) MMM procs occurring on same cycle as the T12 4-set procs. Since both procs save focus, when they both occur on the same cycle, then you save a lot of focus and have a high potential of wasting focus instead of being able to utilize that focus. Also the variation of when MMM AI procs and T12 4-set procs occur can result in feast and famine cycles happening somewhat randomly. Using the same cycle as in 3) as an example below:

ShotTimeFocusFocus2Focus3Focus4Focus5Focus6
CS/4S3,41.0060.2260.22104.22104.2260.2260.22
AS/MMM2,4,62.0042.4364.4386.43108.4342.4364.43
SS3.5057.7679.76101.76123.7657.7679.76
SS5.0073.0895.08117.08139.0873.0895.08
AS/4S5,66.0055.3077.3099.30121.3077.3099.30
AS7.0037.5159.5181.51103.5159.5181.51
SS8.5052.8474.8496.84118.8474.8496.84
SS10.0068.1690.16112.16134.1690.16112.16
Net Focus -31.84-9.8412.1634.16-9.8412.16
Focus2 is a cycle with a MMM AI proc
Focus3 is a cycle with a 4-set proc consumed by CS
Focus4 is a cycle with a 4-set proc consumed by CS and a MMM AI proc
Focus5 is a cycle with a 4-set proc consumed by AS
Focus6 is a cycle with a 4-set proc consumed by AS and a MMM AI proc
Note that shot order should be changed to better utilize focus where possible but was not done in this example.

As can be seen, on a normal cycle, this shot selection loses about 32 focus. On the other hand on a cycle with both a MMM AI and T12 4-set proc consumed by CS, the shot selection wastes over 34 focus. On cycles with only an AS being replaced by either proc, the cycle loses about 10 focus. On a cycle with one AS each being affected by the two procs or the 4-set proc only being consumed by CS, then 12 focus is wasted.

Thus, as can be seen, when MMM AI procs occur relative to when T12 4-set procs occur, can really affect your focus balancing and may result in focus wasting depending on your focus level entering that cycle. For optimal focus balancing, it is ideal for the two procs to not occur on the same cycle. Unfortunately we have very little control of that. On average, MMM AI procs should occur on every other cycle, while the 4-set proc should occur on every about 2.2 cycles. These proc frequencies will vary depending on your shot selection per CS cycle.

Note that the majority of the details on the impact of the T12 4-set procs will be provided in the unhasted cases where the shot rotation is limited to as tight of a CS cycle as possible. Since the hasted cases are not CS CD limited, there is a lot more leeway in the decision process.

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