Well i was already able to complete the T 13 4-piece bonus on live servers and started testing it's mechanics on target dummies. As a result, i can mostly confirm your desciption above so far, including the ICD mechanics and proc chance at roughly 40-50 % (between 1-5 AS needed to trigger the proc once the ICD has expired). Though, the ICD duration seems to be substantially longer than expected, adding up to approximately 110s.


*Edit*

I can't confirm the 105s regarding my own experience beacause i really never had a proc occuring between the 105. and 110. second while spamming 6 AS from second ~105 to ~111. Procs always started to occur between ~111 to ~114s so an ICD of 110s still seems more realtistic to me and goes well with my dummy testing results.

Whitefyst, are you sure with 25% uptime on Starcatcher Compass? That would mean an ICD of roughly 75 seconds ( + 15% chance to proc).
However from my logs (with LFR version) it procs roughly every two minutes with minimum 115 seconds. That gives rougly 1/6 uptime and 546 average dynamic haste on heroic version

Kiril has about 30-35% up time, it stacks up once per sec for the first 10 sec and then you have the full stack for the last 10 sec of the buff. I would recommend it just because it makes you look cool ...

First of all: what do you call an uptime for a stacking debuff?
- in case you count the buff whole 20 seconds of the buff and approximately 5 seconds to proc, then it would be 30% uptime.
- in case you count only 10 stacks the it is ~15% uptime
- in case you count weighted proc (sum of stacks for each second / 10 = number of seconds with full stacks), you get 15.5 / 65 = ~24% uptime

Feel free to correct me.

No I am not sure. As I stated in the original post I was using information from how FD models the trinkets or from information on WoWHead and that the information may be off.

This post is meant to document the impact of the Tier 13 2P set bonus on MM shot selections and rotations. Since the MM guide itself is for the support for base MM rotation, this post is an addendum to handle the T13 2P set bonus is linked from the section of the MM guide briefly discussing the set bonus.

As a reminder, the T13 2P set bonus doubles the focus gained by a SS.

 

Contents

1 1.0 Focus Regeneration Impacts 2 2.0 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump 2.1 2.1 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump at 5.4% Haste 2.2 2.2 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump at 12.93% Haste 2.3 2.3 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump at 26.48% Haste 2.4 2.4 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump Recommendation 2.5 2.5 Other Considerations with Arcane Shot as Focus Dump 2.5.1 2.5.1 Dynamic Haste Effects Impacts 2.5.2 2.5.2 Glyphs with AS as Focus Dump 2.5.3 2.5.3Other Considerations 3 3.0 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump 3.1 3.1 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump at 20.66% Haste (for illustration) 3.2 3.2 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump during Dynamic Haste Effects 3.2.1 3.2.1 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump Rotation Design During Bloodlust/T13 2P 3.2.2 3.2.2 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump Rotation Design During Glyphed Rapid Fire 3.2.3 3.2.3 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump Rotation Design During Unglyphed Rapid Fire 3.3 3.3 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump General Rules 3.4 3.4 Other Considerations with Aimed Shot as Focus Dump 3.4.1 3.4.1 Glyphs with AI as Focus Dump 3.4.2 3.4.2 Kill Shot 3.4.3 3.4.3 Termination 4 4.0 Recommendations 5 5.0 Alternatives 5.1 5.1 AS Focus Dump Alternative with the CS Glyph

[top] 1.0 Focus Regeneration Impacts

The fact that SS casts gain double the focus means that SS now gains 18 focus instead of 9 focus per cast.

Also recall that up until your SS cast becomes GCD capped that the total focus gained (both from the cast and from the natural regen) during the cast is constant regardless of the cast time. The constant value increases from 15.32 focus per cast to 24.32 focus per cast. Note that the constant value starts to increase slightly with haste once the SS cast time has become GCD capped.

With gaining at least 24.32 focus per cast, each SS cast now gains enough focus to cast a corresponding AS (22 focus cost). 2 SS casts almost generate enough focus (48.64 focus) to cast a corresponding AI (50 focus unglyphed) and do generate enough focus to cast a CS (44) or a glyphed AI if assuming at least a 27.2% crit rate raid buffed, which everyone should have by far in T13 gear.

[top] 2.0 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump

Let us first look at the impacts to rotations that use Arcane Shot as the focus dump. The MM guide refers to two preferred static haste cases for an AS focus dump rotation. These are 5.4% and 12.93% haste from gear and Pathing.

[top] 2.1 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump at 5.4% Haste

For people in T13 gear, the 5.4% haste case can be pretty much thrown out the door as an impossibility since it only takes about 2 to 3 pieces of gear with haste on them to meet the 428 haste rating required with only 2/3 Pathing. Even the 692 haste rating with 0/3 Pathing is impossible to achieve getting below. Looking at all of the T13 normal gear on FD, the lowest possible haste rating I could achieve if I could pick the non-haste pieces if any available for a slot or the lowest haste rating piece otherwise and reforging away as much haste as possible is 837 haste rating. With T13 heroic gear the number becomes considerably larger as it does when you do not necessarily get to pick from all of the possible pieces but only the ones available to you.

Although the 5.4% haste case is no longer applicable, I have included a table for it below so that you can see the impacts of the T13 2P and compare it to other options.

Shot	Time	Focus	Focus2
CS	1.00	60.22	60.22
AS	2.00	42.43	42.43
SS	3.50	66.76	66.76
SS	5.00	91.08	91.08
AS/MMM2	6.00	73.30	95.30
AS	7.00	55.51	77.51
SS	8.50	79.84	101.84
SS	10.00	104.16	126.16
Net Focus	15.16	4.16	26.16
Cycle Delay		0.00	0.00

Although this case has a tight CS cycle, it unavoidably wastes on average about 15 focus per cycle with doing the minimum 4 SSs per CS cycle. With the CS glyph, it wastes about an additional 18 focus per cycle at about 33 focus per cycle.

[top] 2.2 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump at 12.93% Haste

Next, let us look at the 12.93% haste case.

Shot	Time	Focus	Focus2
CS	1.00	60.52	60.52
AS	2.00	43.03	43.03
SS	3.40	67.36	67.36
SS	4.80	91.68	91.68
AS/MMM2	5.80	74.20	96.20
AS	6.80	56.72	78.72
SS	8.20	81.04	103.04
SS	9.60	105.37	127.37
Net Focus	16.37	5.37	27.37
Cycle Delay	-0.40	-0.40	-0.40

There are several things to note concerning this haste case:
- Since it performs all of the same shots as the 5.4% haste case but has higher focus regen due to the higher haste, it actually wastes more focus per CS cycle on average than the 5.4% haste case by a little more than 1 focus per cycle at about 16 focus per CS cycle wasted. This is almost equivalent to losing the focus for an AS cast.
- Using the CS glyph wastes 17 focus per cycle at wasting about 34 focus per cycle if doing a tight CS cycle. If performing the above cycle with the CS glyph, then it wastes only about 16 focus per cycle but delays the CS cast by about 0.6s of the 1s glyph benefit.
- This cycle has 0.4s of deadtime every CS cycle. This is because this haste level was designed without the T13 2P bonus where a 5th SS would be required frequently in order to balance focus. This haste level resulted with a tight CS cycle on cycles with the 5th SS. With the T13 2P, the 5th SS is no longer ever required. Thus, the deadtime serves no purpose beyond cushion for latency and reaction time and is not necessarily ideal.
- Although achieving the 1235 haste rating with 3/3 Pathing is possible, for a lot of players depending on the best gear that they have available may be not be able to achieve that low of a haste rating. Some may find it difficult at certain points in gearing to get below 1700-1800 haste rating.

Hence, the 12.93% haste case is not necessarily the best case either, so we need to look at other options.

[top] 2.3 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump at 26.48% Haste

The next option that comes to mind is the next haste level that results in a tight CS cycle with an extra 4th AS added to utilize that extra focus per cycle. This cycle requires a 1.25s SS cast time and occurs at 26.48% haste from gear and Pathing. With 3/3 Pathing, this is 22.80% haste or 2920 haste rating from gear alone. This amount of haste rating is actually achievable in T13 gear. Using T13 normal gear with no haste from trinkets and proc weapons, wearing all but the tier legs for the T13 4 set, and with using 4 Deft cuts instead of Deadly cuts, 2818 haste rating is achievable with being hit capped and having about 38.5% crit rating buffed (before procs). With a piece or two of heroic T13 gear, and that haste level can actually be achieved. The next question is whether it is worth it to achieve it, and the answer is probably not with T13 normal gear, but as you gain more and more T13 heroic gear, this haste level becomes a little more favorable. Even then it still may not be worth achieving but is an option to explore.

The table for the 26.48% haste case is:

Shot	Time	Focus	Focus2
CS	1.00	61.06	61.06
AS	2.00	44.12	44.12
SS	3.25	68.44	68.44
SS	4.50	92.77	92.77
AS/MMM2	5.50	75.83	97.83
AS	6.50	58.89	80.89
AS	7.50	41.94	63.94
SS	8.75	66.27	88.27
SS	10.00	90.59	112.59
Net Focus	1.59	-9.41	12.59
Cycle Delay	0.00	0.00	0.00

Some comments on this case:
- This is a tight CS cycle that is pretty ideally focused balanced at wasting only 1.6 focus per cycle.
- With the CS glyph, this cycle wastes about 19 focus per CS cycle.
- At this haste level, AI cast time is down to 1.81s, which is at a cast time where using AI as the focus dump over AS is preferred when it is safe to use AI. However, when it is not save to use AI, this rotation works out pretty well.
- Getting this haste level requires a huge sacrifice in crit and mastery.

[top] 2.4 Arcane Shot as Focus Dump Recommendation

So what do I recommend as a haste level for the AS focus dump case. To be honest, there is no one good answer that works for everyone since it depends on how much haste is on your gear and what is your total secondary stat pool size with keeping a decent “balance” in your stats. The answer is somewhere between the 12.98% and 26.48% haste cases and will require you to experiment on what works best for your case.

What I will suggest is considering firing the 4th AS for the 26.48% haste case even at lower haste levels. For instance, with just 1490 haste rating and 3/3 Pathing, the CS cycle has 0.5s deadtime in it and wastes about 16.7 focus per cycle on average. That deadtime and focus could be used to fire an extra AS. So instead of 0.5s deadtime, you get 0.5s delay on your CS cast. This can be a DPS improvement since it is essentially at the best case scenario 20 extra ASs versus 1 extra CS and 8 SSs, which definitely favors the ASs enough where casting the extra AS is a DPS gain even in the less ideal situations with decent latency. Note that due to focus balancing that you can only cast the extra AS on about 3 of every 4 CS cycles at this haste level.

As haste level is increased, the delay in CS casts is reduced, and the focus balancing allows a larger percentage of the CS cycles to be cast with the extra AS and still balance focus. This favors the extra AS cast more and more until you reach the well focus balanced and tight CS cycle at the 26.48% haste case.

[top] 2.5 Other Considerations with Arcane Shot as Focus Dump

[top] 2.5.1 Dynamic Haste Effects Impacts

In general with the recommended haste range, large dynamic haste effects, such as RF, BL, the T13 4P proc, and Starcatcher Compass procs will cause your AI cast time to be very low making it definitely the better choice as a focus dump if AI can safely be cast.

With smaller dynamic haste effects, such as that from The Hungerer or Matrix Restabilizer, the additional haste may or may not make AI the more effect focus dump depending on your static haste amount. If you have higher static haste amounts within the recommended range, then AI is favored more over AS as the focus dump.

Since AI is the preferred focus dump when under dynamic haste effects in most instance, I will not spend a lot of time analyzing how haste effects AS focus dump rotations.

However, I will look at one haste situation as an example. This is the 30% haste case since we get it both from BL and the T13 4P proc. With the 30% dynamic haste and the 14.98% haste from gear and Pathing case where the deadtime/delay in the CS cycle is balanced depending on whether you cast an extra AS or not, your SS cast time is 1.06s. In fact, your SS cast is not down to the GCD in this case until you have 21.61% haste from gear and Pathing. Hence, if you are truly using AS as the focus dump when under dynamic haste effects a lot, then you probably do not want to have more than 21.61% static haste since your SS casts will be limited for BL, RF, and T13 4P procs with the extra haste only benefiting focus regen and autoshot rate.

Here is the shot table for an AS focus dump cycle during BL at 14.98% static haste from gear and Pathing:

Shot	Time	Focus	Focus2	Focus3
CS	1.00	61.98	61.98	61.98
AS	2.00	45.96	45.96	45.96
AS	3.00	29.94	29.94	29.94
SS	4.06	54.26	54.26	54.26
SS	5.12	78.59	78.59	78.59
AS/MMM2	6.12	62.56	84.56	62.56
AS	7.12	46.54	68.54	46.54
AS/SS3	8.12	30.52	52.52	70.87
SS	9.17	54.85	76.85	95.19
SS	10.23	79.17	101.17	119.52
Net Focus	0.26	-20.83	1.17	19.52
Cycle Delay	0.00	0.23	0.23	0.29

This shows that during BL or T13 4P procs that you can get a fairly tight 5 AS CS cycle that is focused balanced by replacing the 5th AS with a 5th SS every 4th cycle. With between 0.23 and 0.29s of CS delay per cycle, this rotation can still benefit from addition static haste above 14.98% up to the 21.61% where the SS cast time is GCD capped and the CD cycle is exactly 10s (not including latency).

The next question is what about RFs. Well with an unglyphed RF at 14.98% haste from gear and Pathing, you waste on average 33 focus per cycle if you do a tight CS rotation. To use all of your focus from just the 4 SSs to maintain ISS, you have to do 8 (or 7 and an MMM AI) ASs per CS cycle, delaying the CS cast by 3s. Is this worth it? It’s a trade off of 1 CS and 9 SSs versus 10 ASs, and it comes out roughly equal depending on your stats (for my current stats it’s a 2000 damage loss using the extra ASs). However, as crit rate increases favoring CS and SS due to PS, performing the extra ASs wil probably be a DPS loss. However, if you are in a big burn phase with high movement, then blowing all the ASs can be beneficial.

[top] 2.5.2 Glyphs with AS as Focus Dump

SS is still an important glyph since you are still doing at least 4 SSs per CS cycle. However, the value of this glyph is diminished some since with the additional focus per SS, we are performing less SSs on average.

AS glyph is a must if using AS as the focus dump a lot. The value of this glyph is increased some since with needing to perform less SSs to maintain focus, we can perform more ASs per cycle on average.

Obviously, if you are using AS as the focus dump all of the time, the AI glyph is useless.

The RF glyph provides no benefit either beyond increased autoshot rate (and the derived benefits from more autoshots) since SS cast time should be capped already with unglyphed RF and the additional focus generated really cannot be used effectively in most cases.

Unless you are using an alternative cycle that uses focus differently, the CS glyph is not worth as much as it used to be since we have more focus available for the additional AS such that using less focus per cycle is not a benefit anymore of the CS glyph. With the CS glyph, we waste a lot of focus per cycle. The only possible benefit of the CS glyph is the damage of 1 additional CS every 90s seconds. That CS damage is weighed against 9 AS versus the number of SS that can be done in 8s at the current haste level. Assuming a 1.33s SS cast time, the CS glyph turns out to be a 208 DPS loss with my current shot damage amounts with including PS damage.

The value of the KS glyph is decreased as well since the focus savings of performing an additional KS is no longer necessary. The only benefit of the KS glyph is the additional damage over the AS it replaces. Since KS currently does about twice the damage of AS, it is definitely still a significant increase.

So basically, the only two good third glyph options for an AS focus dump CS cycle with using 4 SSs per cycle are KS and RF, even with its limited benefit in the AS focus dump case.

[top] 2.5.3Other Considerations

With using AS as a focus dump at all times, Termination now has very limited benefits at low haste and no benefit at higher static haste levels since our cycles are focused balanced without it. Thus, consider moving any points in Termination to other MM talents.

[top] 3.0 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump

I do not recommend using AI as the focus dump when it has slow cast times (> 2s). Hence, I will not evaluate any cases with AI cast time greater than 2s, although I prefer to not actually use AI until its cast time is below 1.9s. To get a 2s AI cast time, only 14.62% haste from gear and Pathing is required. The table below illustrates the AI cast times for the haste range limits for the AS focus dump case discussed above.

Static Haste from Gear and Pathing	AI Cast Time
12.93%	2.03
13.96%	2.01
14.98%	1.99
16.00%	1.98
17.05%	1.96
18.10%	1.94
19.14%	1.92
20.19%	1.91
21.24%	1.89
22.29%	1.87
23.34%	1.86
24.38%	1.84
25.43%	1.83
26.48%	1.81

As can be seen, as you gain more and more static haste to more effectively use AS as a focus dump, you also make AI closer to becoming a better option to use as a focus dump even when under no dynamic haste effects.

[top] 3.1 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump at 20.66% Haste (for illustration)

For the sake of illustration of an unhasted AI focus dump cycle, I will use the 20.66% haste from gear and Pathing at which the AI cast time is 1.9s.

Here is the table for an AI focus dump case at 20.66% haste from gear and Pathing with no dynamic haste effects:

Shot	Time	Focus	Focus2
CS	1.00	60.83	60.83
AI	2.90	20.00	20.00
SS	4.21	44.32	44.32
SS	5.52	68.64	68.64
AI/MMM2	7.42	27.81	73.47
SS	8.73	52.14	97.80
SS	10.04	76.46	122.12
Net Focus	-0.71	-23.54	22.12
Cycle Delay	0.04	0.04	-0.86

This works out to a pretty much ideal 10s CS cycle since it is almost focus balanced when including the MMM AI replacement every other cycle at losing less than 1 net focus per cycle. However, there is significant deadtime in the cycle on MMM AI proc cycles.

Hence, at about 1.9s AI cast time, the T13 2P provides a pretty balanced and tight CS cycle. Also at this haste level, this cycle does comparable damage to the corresponding AS focus dump cycle at this haste level. Thus, this haste level is the rough cutoff point where using AI as the focus dump over AS when unhasted may be better. However, for many reasons I would still suggest using AS as the focus dump when not under dynamic haste effects unless you have considerably more static haste. These include:
- the vunerability of AI to interruptions and pushback
- not being able to use AI when moving
- needing to cast ASs periodically to proc the T13 4P haste bonus

Hence, I still only suggest using AI as the focus dump when under dynamic haste effects that drop your AI cast time well below 1.8s.

[top] 3.2 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump during Dynamic Haste Effects

I do not plan to go over any explicit rotations for AI focus dump cycles when under dynamic haste effects since the length of the rotation and focus balancing greatly depend on the overall haste level which fluctuates from player to player with their static haste amount and with the specific dynamic haste effects present at a given time.

As an example, I list the shot data for the 14.98% haste case during a BL:

Shot	Time	Focus	Focus2
CS	1.00	61.98	61.98
AI	2.53	21.15	21.15
SS	3.59	45.47	45.47
SS	4.65	69.80	69.80
AI/MMM2	6.18	28.97	75.78
SS	7.24	53.29	100.10
SS	8.30	77.62	124.42
AI	9.83	36.79	83.59
SS	10.89	61.11	107.92
SS*	11.95	85.43	132.24
Net Focus	-9.63	-38.89	7.92
Cycle Delay	0.56	0.89	0.36
Net Focus*	20.54	-14.57	32.24
Cycle Delay*	1.55	1.95	1.41

To balance focus with the above rotation, it requires an extra 6th SS (rows with *) every cycle without an MMM AI proc under ideal conditions. However, I will point out that it is very difficult to prevent focus capping and losing some focus with Aimed Shot rotations since Aimed Shot costs a lot of focus and has relatively long cast times. Hence, if you waste a lot of focus, you may need to perform the additional SS more often.

Also note that the order of shots above is just for me to figure out the number of shots and not specifically the ideal order. The ideal order depends on what is your focus level going into the cycle and then also has to be adjusted for when MMM AI procs occur.

[top] 3.2.1 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump Rotation Design During Bloodlust/T13 2P

If you want to design your static haste rating for when you have BL or the T13 4P proc, then here are some key haste points from my quick analysis:
- At roughly 20.1% haste from gear and Pathing, the BL rotation has no CS delay on MMM AI proc cycles
- At roughly 22.6% haste from gear and Pathing, the average of the deadtime on MMM AI procs cycles balances out with the CS delay on non-MMM AI proc cycles
- At roughly 23.4% haste from gear and Pathing, the deadtime on MMM AI proc cycles and the CS delay on non-MMM AI proc cycles are the same.

[top] 3.2.2 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump Rotation Design During Glyphed Rapid Fire

If you want to design your static haste rating for when you have glyphed RF, then the rotation is very similar to the BL case except that you can perform an additional AI (so CS-AIx4-SSx5). Some comments and haste points:
- At 14.98% haste from gear and Pathing, the CS delay is 1.32s on non-MMM AI proc cycles and essentially 0.99s on MMM AI proc cycles. It is also slightly focus negative at about -1.6 focus on average. This means that the cycle can benefit from even more haste.
- At the 21.6% haste from gear and Pathing upper boundary, the cycle becomes focus balanced. The CS delay is 1.03s on non-MMM AI proc cycles and essentially 0.77s on MMM AI proc cycles.
- At the 26.48% haste from gear and Pathing upper boundary, the CS delay is 0.83s on non-MMM AI proc cycles and essentially 0.63s on MMM AI proc cycles. It is also slightly focus positive at about +1.3 focus on average.
Thus, any haste level between these two levels just tightens up the cycle some from the 14.98% case.

[top] 3.2.3 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump Rotation Design During Unglyphed Rapid Fire

If you want to design your static haste rating for when you have an unglyphed RF, then the rotation is very similar to the glyphed RF case except that it obviously takes a little longer to perform and has a little less focus. Some comments and haste points:
- At 14.98% haste from gear and Pathing, the CS delay is 1.70s on non-MMM AI proc cycles and essentially 1.27s on MMM AI proc cycles. It is also slightly focus negative at about -3.4 focus on average. This means that the cycle can benefit from even more haste.
- At the 21.6% haste from gear and Pathing upper boundary, the cycle becomes focus balanced. The CS delay is 1.03s on non-MMM AI proc cycles and essentially 0.77s on MMM AI proc cycles.
- At the 26.48% haste from gear and Pathing upper boundary, the CS delay is 1.18s on non-MMM AI proc cycles and essentially 0.88s on MMM AI proc cycles. It is also slightly focus negative at about -0.9 focus on average.

Some of these are all pretty high haste requirements and may not be worth achieving due to the sacrifices in crit and mastery.

[top] 3.3 Aimed Shot as Focus Dump General Rules

Some general rules for managing focus levels with an AI focus dump rotation:
- Perform MMM AI procs adjacent on at least one side to shots that cost focus. Never sandwich an MMM AI proc between two SS pairs since you will definitely overcap focus. In the 14.98% static haste BL case above, SS-SS-MMM AI-SS-SS results in gaining over 103 focus. Thus, if you normally do SS-SS-AI-SS-SS and a MMM AI proc occurs when you go to do the AI still cast the AI afterwards.
- To limit the amount of overcapping, suggest playing near the low end of the focus boundary. Dump focus until you cannot anymore, then use an SS pair (or a single SS when applicable) to generate enough focus to dump focus again.

[top] 3.4 Other Considerations with Aimed Shot as Focus Dump

[top] 3.4.1 Glyphs with AI as Focus Dump

SS is still an important glyph since you are still doing at least 4 SSs per CS cycle. However, the value of this glyph is diminished some since with the additional focus per SS, we are performing less SSs on average.

If you are not ever doing any AIs, then the AS glyph has no value. However, if you are casting AS when unhasted, when on the move, or when it is not safe to cast AI, then the AS glyph probably has enough value to earn its way into the top 3 glyphs. The value of this glyph is increased some since with needing to perform less SSs to maintain focus, we can perform more ASs per cycle on average when using AS as the focus dump.

With using AI as the focus dump all or part of the time, then the AI glyph is an option to consider. With assuming a 40% buffed crit rate, it saves 2 focus per AI on average. For the unhasted rotation that does 1.5 AIs per cycle on average (the half is due to the MMM AI proc every other cycle), this is an average savings of 3 focus per CS cycle. Since the unhasted cycle was slightly focus negative (by about 1 focus or less depending on static haste), this focus savings can be beneficial but really does not help much since you can cast an extra SS every 24th cycle and balance focus as well. For the BL case with less than 2.5 AIs per cycle, it saves less than 5 focus per cycle on average. This is not enough to make a difference in the rotation beyond being able to drop the extra SS every about 15th cycle overall (every 5th cycle on which the extra SS would be cast. For the RF cases with less than 3.5 AIs per cycle, it saves less than 7 focus per cycle on average. Once again, this is not enough of a benefit to change the rotation beyond being able to drop the extra SS every about 15th cycle overall. Hence, the AI glyph is still not a good option.

Although your SS casts should already be at the GCD with during RF, the RF glyph provides increased autoshot rate (and the derived benefits from more autoshots), decreased AI cast time, and a little higher focus regen during RFs. This makes the CS cycle a little shorter during RFs or requiring less static haste to be tighter at a given haste level. Hence, for an AI focus dump case, the RF glyph has significant benefits and is a good third option glyph.

The CS glyph is not a really good option with an AI focus dump cycle in my opinion. First, we no longer need the focus savings from casting one less focus dump per cycle as much. Second, we are under various haste situations that affect both our SS and AI cast times making it very difficult to design a good static haste amount that consistently uses our focus well and has either very little deadtime in the CS cycle or very little CS delay such that the benefit of the glyph is utilized. There may be some static haste levels where the CS glyph works well on average unhasted, with BL and T13 4P procs, with RF, and with other dynamic haste effect, but I am neither currently aware of any at this time nor have the time currently to figure them out. I amy try to do so sometime in the future if I have the desire and time.

The value of the KS glyph is decreased as well since the focus savings of performing an additional KS is no longer as necessary. Since the focus savings is not necessary in many situations and since AI does so much more damage than KS (1.78 times currently for my character), it can be a DPS loss to cast the KS instead of the AI, especially with AIs with very short cast times. In fact, with the 1.78 damage ratio, a rough estimate is that as long as the AI cast time is less than 1.78s, which it should be in moist dynamic situations, then AI is the better DPS option.

So basically, after the SS glyph, there really is no must have glyph options. If you are doing a lot of ASs still, then I suggest the AS glyph; otherwise, the AI glyph may be an okay option. For the third glyph, RF seems to provide the most benefit at this time.

[top] 3.4.2 Kill Shot

While analyzing the KS glyph, the question arose on whether there are any situations with an AI focus dump where it would be beneficial to totally ignore using KS. One of the reasons casting KS was required before was because its focus free and using it helped to balance focus. With focus not being as big of a concern with the T13 2P, is casting KS still a DPS gain?

The short answer is that it is if used correctly.

Some constraints on its use:
- An SS cannot usually be replaced with an KS since we are either already doing the minimum number of SSs or because the focus generated by an SS is just too much to be replaced.
- It often is not useful to replace an AI with a KS since the AI does so much more damage. The ratio for my character currently is 1.78. Hence, if the AI cast time is below 1.78s and we have plenty of focus to cast it, AI is the better damage option.

So the major deciding factor on whether KS is still useful is whether its average DPS is greater than the average DPS of the cycle. The answer to this is that it is. My average KS currently is 32261 according to FD. The highest DPS cycle outside the CA phase is a glyphed RF cycle with 1 point in Termination with doing 1 CS, 4 AIs, and 4.7 SSs, which does about 31984 DPS at the very high 26.48% haste level. Hence, KS always does better DPS than any of our currently possible DPS cycle during the KS phase and is still useful when used properly. Since it is usually not worthwhile to replace an SS, AI, or a CS with it, the default best use for KS is just to tack it onto the end of the CS cycle with maintaining all of the rest of the shots. This results in a little more additional focus being generated over the CS cycle helping with focus balancing more and reducing the ratio of extra SS needed. So effectively on some cycles, the KS does replace an SS. Tacking the KS onto the end of the cycle has additional benefits on cycles, especially those with MMM AI procs, that have deadtime without the KS cast. Hence, part of the KS cast utilizes that deadtime and increase effective DPS even more.

[top] 3.4.3 Termination

How does the T13 2P affect Termination as a beneficial talent for AI focus dump cycles?

Since the unhasted AI focus dump cycle is slightly focus negative with the minimum 4 SSs, 1 point in Termination provides a slight benefit since it makes the rotation focus positive but ends up wasting about 11 focus per cycle on average. The second point in Termination is not useful in this case. However, once you get to the KS phase, adding the KS cast per cycle results in enough additional focus generation to make the rotation focus positive without any points in Termination.

In the BL case, without Termination, the cycle with 5 SSs is focus negative by about -10 focus and requires an extra SS periodically to balance focus. 1 point in Termination makes the cycle focus positive and eliminates the need for the extra SS ever. The second point in Termination is not enough of a benefit to eliminate the 5th SS or allow it to be replaced by another shot. Once we get to the KS phase, the extra focus generation per cycle reduced the focus deficit to about 3 focus per cycle. Thus, a single point in Termination still has some benefit.

For the RF cases, since the rotations are pretty close to focus balanced already, 1 point in Termination can make the rotations focus balanced. It also allows you to be able to drop the 5th SS roughly on every 3rd cycle and still maintain focus balance. The second point allows you to drop the 5th SS more often (about on 3 of every 4 cycles) and maintain focus balance. When you get to the KS phase, the additional KS itself makes the cycle focus balanced without any points in Termination and eliminated the need for the extra SS to about two of every 3 times it would otherwise be needed. One point in Termination reduces the need for the 5th SS to only about 1 in 4 times that it would otherwise be needed to balance focus. 2 points in Termination almost eliminates the need for the 5th SS at 14.98% haste and does so at about 21% haste or higher.

Hence, with an AI focus dump, I still recommend a point in Termination but do not think that the second point is worth sacrificing the benefits of the talents out of which it would come.

The point is Termination is not always worthwhile, but it is useful in enough situations that I still recommend it over the alternatives, which include SilS, CB, and RiF.

[top] 4.0 Recommendations

I still recommend the same spec as prior to 4.3 with the trade off for the last point in Frenzy or Pathing leaning heavily towards Pathing with the higher static haste levels. The only exception is possibly moving the point in Termination into another talent. Personally, I still think a point in Termination is the best option.

I still recommend a hybrid focus dump usage with using AI as the focus dump when it is sufficiently hasted below 1.8s cast time and it is safe to cast it (no threat of interruptions, pushback, or having to move) and AS as the focus dump otherwise.

With the above focus dump philosophy, I still recommend the same 3 glyphs: SS, AS, and RF

Concerning general usage of KS:
- When using AS as the focus dump, KS casts should still replace AS casts or extra SS casts as necessary to balance focus.
- When using AI as the focus dump, suggest not replacing any shots with KS and just adding KS onto the end of the cycle.

[top] 5.0 Alternatives

[top] 5.1 AS Focus Dump Alternative with the CS Glyph

One theoretical possibility for utilizing the extra focus available with the T13 4P on an AS focus dump cycle is to use the CS glyph with a 2 SS cycle every other cycle that still maintains ISS but allows more AS focus dumps such as shown below.

CS-AS-SS-SS-AS-AS-SS-SS
CS-AS-AS-SS-SS-AS-AS-AS

The above cycle pair still maintains 100% ISS uptime. It generates 108 focus from the 6 SSs and regens at least 81 focus for a total gain of 189 focus. With assuming about 1 MMM AI proc over the cycle pair, the focus cost is 200 focus. This results in a slightly focus negative cycle at about -5 focus a cycle that would just require an extra SS about every 4th cycle to balance focus. Although this type of cycle is theoretically beneficial, it is not the practical choice since with all of the haste on T13 gear, the preference is use AI as the focus dump as much as possible.

The 4.3.2 change to buff Aspect of the Hawk by 35% is about a 1001 AP gain for MM hunters, when including the 10% raid AP buff. The equates to roughly +1250 DPS.

Although OwN is listed as an optional talent, it is was pretty much a mandatory talent and is even more so now.

This change also applies a greater AP penalty when switching to Aspect of the Fox, making the trade off analysis of whether it is worthwhile to switch to fox to cast SS while on the move a more limited decision. It is best to avoid using Aspect of the Fox as much as possible. About the best time to use it is when on an extended run when you cannot stop to cast since reduced DPS due to Fox is better than performing no specials until you regen focus to do so. Fortunately, the increased focus from the T132P limits the number of SSs required to maintain focus levels and limits the situations in which Fox may be needed. If it is safe to stop for a bit to fire an SS pair before needing to move again, then it is best to stay out of Fox.

I realize much of this information is in other threads, but I wanted to include it in the MM thread with MM specific impacts. Plus, this serves to bump the MM guide back onto the default thread view (a post within the last month).

Theoretically, at high gear levels, using an AI only focus dump (with only using enough ASs to proc the T134P when off ICD) rotation is higher DPS than a mixed AI/AS focus dump rotation. However, in practice, most boss fights, especially on heroic, have high movement requirements or interruption mechanics that make it difficult to consistently perform AI casts, which can result in the mixed AI/AS usage actually being better DPS in practice. Thus, I recommend that approach. However, highly skilled players can possibly perform the AI only focus dump case well enough to make it still be better.

For comparison purposes of the 2 cases, I will use FD and my current 397-8 ilevel gear. I currently use a balanced AI/AS approach with getting as much crit as possible, haste above the 1235 rating amount, and maintaining a good amount of mastery to increase AS and AoE DPS. FD lists this as 43584 DPS.

Going the AI only DPS route, the best stats are as much haste as possible while still maintaining decent crit levels. Mastery is sacrificed since it is worth less since you are taking less total shots with the AI cast times and autoshot lockouts. Hence, your AoE DPS will suffer a little with this approach die to the loss of mastery.

You mention using a haste trinket. I assume this is the Starcatcher Compass. The Compass provides some soft haste caps. Your AI casts are at the 1s GCD during glyphed RFs at 3292 haste rating for normal Compass and at 2918 haste rating for the heroic Compass. I definitely would not suggest stacking haste higher than that.

In FD, without doing any reforging or reglyphing but going to the AI "only" focus dump case, I get 42994 DPS for a loss of about 600 DPS, but this amount is incorrect since this FD case fired the ASs to proc the T134P immediately instead of waiting until after the CA phase. This wasted most of the haste from the proc since with the glyphed RF and the trinket proc too, AI cast time was at 0.856s. I will talk to Zeherah about this to see if it is a bug or just an incorrect setting by me. Anyway, if the ASs are cast after the CA phase, the DPS should be much higher.

Now concerning reforging, despite the increased secondary stats on most of our gear pieces with DS gear, we actually lose some reforging flexibility and do not really gain as much secondary stats as one would expect due to the BiS melee and ranged weapons not having any secondary stats. That along woth the agility trinkets not having secondary stats to reforge reduces both what the possible stat pool could be and the number of slots that could be reforged. Thus, with my gear, I could only reforge to 1890 haste rating out of the about 4500 secondary stat pool after being hit capped. This resulted in 43140 DPS, which is about 150 DPS improvement before reforging but still about 440 DPS below the mixed focus dump case, mostly due to when the first T13 4P proc is occurring. With that fixed, this case is probably a little better. With different normal gear pieces than what I have or with heroic versions, higher haste amounts can be achieved, which will increase the relative DPS.

To get a true feeling for this case, another setting to adjust is the Save Focus for CS setting. Since with the T132P focus generation, casting AIs can result in a lot of wasted focus, especially if saving enough focus to cast CS after the AI. Hence, it is best to turn this setting off in game should should try to avoid capping focus if you can with always casting SSs to gain enough focus to cast either AI or CS and avoid focus capping. Changing this setting increased DPS by 427 in this case while it only increased DPS by 157 in the original case since with using ASs, it is much easier to avoid capping focus with that setting.

The next question is which glyph to use instead of the AS glyph. The options are:
AI glyph: +255 DPS in this case (was +171 before fixing the Save Focus For setting). A quick estimation is that this glyph saved about 200 focus over the 5 min sim.
KS glyph: -40 DPS in this case. This is because between the higher damage from AI then KS, the shorter cast time with the higher haste levels making AI casts closer to the GCD, and focus not being a concern with the T132P and 1 point in Term, the extra KSs are only a small DPS gain in the KS phase and does not make up for the loss of DPS over the rest of teh fight when KS is not being performed.
Hence, the AI glyph is the best option in this case.

So to summarize, the original mixed focus dump case after fixing the Save Focus for setting is 43742 DPS, while this case is 43882 DPS. This is only 140 DPS better in FD, but the actual DPS increase is larger once the first T134P proc is corrected until after the CA phase. Even then the DPS increase will only be a few hundred DPS at most. This difference is reduced anytime you have your AI cast interrupted or fire AS instead when moving such that on most practical fights that the mixed focus dump case probably works out better. Furthermore, your AoE will be higher with the extra mastery from the mixed focus dump situation.

I couldn't see the ranged weapon options to provide a response concerning it, but usually the higher weapon DPS version wins out. However, I suggest checking FD to get another view on the situation.

I've tried to find this information, and I seem to remember seeing it somewhere, but I can't find it anymore.

It has to do with relative DPS gains for Pet Buffs/Debuffs.

I keep a Cat, Wolf, Ravager, Hyena, and Raptor on me at all times. These were the best DPS pets for Marks, as my memory serves from my information.

Now, I do remember that the buff from Cat is top priotiy to have, followed by Wolf. As far as the next 3, I can't remember their weighting for certain. I'd believe the Mangle Debuff from Hyena is better overall DPS than the Physical Vulnerability from Ravager, with Armor Reduction from Raptor being lowest priority... But I figured I'd ask those more math-y than me. Hell, for all I know, the information I read is wrong and I should've been carrying a Dragonhawk on me...

Anyways. I apologize if I managed to skip over the location that this information is in. Any kinda of hints about this would be awesome. Thanks.

Well, if you raid 10-man and may be missing the 8% spelll dmg debuff sometimes, a Dragonhawk/Wind Serpent is good to have around as an option. So of the 6, the 5 to choose depends on what buffs/debuffs are sometimes missing in your raid.

For personal hunter DPS, you can get a good feel of the impact of missing a buff by removing it on FD. Here is the data for my character with assuming a Ferocity pet, and it can change some depending on your actual spec, gear, shot rotation, and whether the pet is cunning instead:

Cat - Str/Agi: 2364 DPS
Wolf - 5% crit: 1982 DPS
Ravager: 4% physical dmg debuff: 1341 DPS
Raptor - 12% armor debuff: 1317 DPS
Hyena - 30% bleed dmg debuff: 1248 DPS
Wind Serpent - 8% magic debuff: 710 DPS

The two buffs if missing tend to be the best DPS option for you personally, but also for the raid as well.

Since Cats are the best solo DPS due to agility being our primary stat, I usually carry one although odds are usually that you will have this buff present in raids since it takes any DK or Shaman or any warrior that is willing to perform that shout. Thus, its an option for 3 full classes besides the hunter.

Wolfs provide the next best buff by a large margin over the rest since MMs are so dependent on crits. This is also a relatively scarce buff with only 4 specs or 1.3 equivalent classes that provide it.

The debuffs are well behind the buffs in personal DPS, with three of them being close. The worst of these (8% magic dmg debuff) can be so important to the raid though that your loss of personal DPS over other options is more than likely out weighed by the DPS gain of the raid.

I usually have a Ravager with me since our raid is often missing the debuff, which is provided by the equivalent of 1 class (Unholy DKs, Arm Warriors, and Combat Rogue) not including hunters. Hence, it is often missing in 10-man raids.

Since bleed damage provides a hunter the second least benefit and tends to provide most raid groups the least benefit, it is an option to leave behind. However, I usually have one with me since only 3 specs (Feral Druid, Sub Rogue, and Arms Warrior) or the equivalent of 1 class provides the debuff. Hence, it is one of the debuffs more likely to be missing.

Although our personally worse of the debuff options with casting relative few Arcane Shots, I usually carry a Wind Serpent since my raid is usually short the buff, and it helps the casters alot. The equivalent of 2 classes provide the debuff. Another benefit of the Wind Serpent is that it provides a pet that can attack at ranged too, which is useful on some fights.

I usually leave my Raptor behind since the debuff is middling for me personally, my raid is not overly physical dmg attack based, and since 3 whole classes (warriors, rogues, druids) can provide the debuff that a raid is rarely without it.



EDIT: Fixed incorrect classes for the 4% physical damage debuff. That is what I get for replying at 2 AM.

As is the answer with all such questions: "It depends."

It depends on the following:
- What trinkets do you have? Do you use Starcatcher Compass to provide haste once in a while or not?
- How do you want to optimize? For maximum DPS potential (i.e, in a stand-still fight)? For best DPS in heroic fights with high-movement?
- What is your playstyle and preferrences? Do you try to always hardcast AI? Do you use AS when moving or in threat of interruption and when unhasted?
- Other considerations, such as SS and AI haste hard caps.

The guide and posts in this thread provide many such options depending on various situations, so I will not repeat all the gory details here.

My personal preferrence (although I am not currently playing MM since SV is much easier to perform well on the high movement, frequent target switching fights that exist in DS) is a balanced approach with casting AIs and ASs that accomodates moving as well as possible while still maximizing DPS.

Doing a quick FD analysis to illustrate one situation, here is some results of various options with casting AI when below the 1.8s cast time and with using Starcatcher Compass as the second trinket (since Vial has not ever dropped in my raid once). All reforges are quick reforges and not necesssarily optimal.

1) All "heroic T13" gear with standard gemming and enchants and unreforged (this case is low hit rating):

Hit: 495
Crit: 2398
Haste : 1767
Mastery: 1291
DPS: 48781

2) Reforge mastery/haste to hit cap but do no other optimizing reforges (this case serves as the basis for comparison):

Hit: 965
Crit: 2398
Haste : 1671 (13.04% haste from gear; 47.29% overall static haste - 1.36s SS and 1.97s AI cast
Mastery: 917
DPS: 50208

3) Reforge to the 12.93% haste from gear and Pathing case that was the base recommendation in previous tiers with moving as much of the haste into crit as the priority.

Hit: 963
Crit: 2735
Haste : 1240 (9.68% haste from gear; 42.91% overall static haste - 1.40s SS and 2.03s AI cast
Mastery: 1013
DPS: 50275 (+67 DPS over 2))

This case did 42 AS and 52 AIs.

4) Reforge to the 14.98% haste from gear and Pathing (ended up about 50 haste above).

Hit: 965
Crit: 2633
Haste : 1540 (12.03% haste from gear; 45.97% overall static haste - 1.37s SS and 1.97s AI cast
Mastery: 1013
DPS: 50342 (+134 DPS over 2))

This case did 40 AS and 53 AIs.

5) Reforge to the 18.50% haste from gear and Pathing (ended up about 50 haste above).

Hit: 967
Crit: 2231
Haste : 1940 (15.15% haste from gear; 50.03% overall static haste - 1.33s SS and 1.93s AI cast
Mastery: 1013
DPS: 50221 (+13 DPS over 2))

This case did 41 AS and 54 AIs.

With the gear I selected for this case, I could not reforge to the next haste level of 21.20% from gear and pathing, even with renchanting a few slots that did not lose agi. Thus, for this case, it appears that some where around 1500 haste rating is ideal; however, this is not a big change in DPS amongst the options.

Other cases can use the Vial instead of the Compass or the staff instead of the polearm for additional stats to work with. Yet other cases can have the cast speed for casting AI adjusted to higher cast times to explore those options; however, those are not as balanced with AS to AI casts to accomodate moving and target switching as much.