 |
02/08/11, 3:58 PM
|
#101
|
|
King Hippo
|
Originally Posted by Lupius
These are the exact reasons I've been skeptical about the discussion here in the past two days. Last night I did some napkin math using a cycle-based approach and I got the following results:
The idea is to execute a set selection of shots that are consistent every cycle, with some consideration for AiS procs (avg 2.8 per min), but not accounting for situations such as bloodlust/rapid fire and CA/execute range rotation. In other words, your standard rotation in the 80% to 20% range.
|
This is pretty much what I do if you look at the rotation section of the OP, except that I do it for all 4 phases of the fight - CA, standard, Term, and KS phases, and I do it with trying out various shot selection choices with accounting for focus usage so that I can try to balance it out over time (a balance rotation may require a mixture of 2 different cycles to balance focus usage - the max DPS cycle and a focus regen cycle with the difference between them usually being a SS). I had a nice spreadsheet made up that modeled all of the reasonable choices with taking into account various glyphs as well with all I had to do was get average shot damage numbers from FD and plug them in to see what rotations/glyphs were best at different gearings.
The problem is that this spreadsheet was created with AS as the focus dump instead of AI, and it is taking me a while (with being busy at the moment) to retool it. Once that is done, I will update the rotation section with taking into account inputs from the community, such as yours.
Edit: I just finally had the time to read your post fully, and there is one major problem with your analysis. It uses 2.4s instead of 2.9s as the base AI cast time. Thus, your results are going to be off what you can actually implement.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/08/11 at 5:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 4:15 PM
|
#102
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
Edit: Delete please. That's what I get for reading MMO.
Last edited by Shadowwaltz : 02/08/11 at 4:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 4:23 PM
|
#103
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Shattered Hand
|
Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz
Patch notes say 2.4 sec cast, yet Aimed is 2.9 for me. It does seem to hit for *slightly* less than it did on the PTR last night, but I don't have any numbers on that so don't quote me.
|
It was 2.9s on the PTR as well and that is how it's been implemented in SimCraft for several weeks now. If anyone has concrete numbers on Aimed Shot damage that they can post along with your AP and whether or not you had Hunter's Mark up or any other debuffs were on the dummy that would be quite helpful. If not I'll run the test when I get home from work in ~3 hrs and put the results here. I believe we'll be pushing a 4.0.6 release of SimCraft shortly after Aimed Shot damage is confirmed.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 4:35 PM
|
#104
|
|
Don Flamenco
|
No debuffs on the target, level 85 training dummy. No Hunter's mark.
RAP: 829 (naked +Themios)
04:29:33, Drall's Aimed Shot hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(5259 Overkill)
04:29:51, Drall's Aimed Shot hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(4701 Overkill)
04:31:05, Drall's Aimed Shot hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(4837 Overkill)
a few non crits.
Recount info:
Aimed Shot Crit 8, Avg 9408, Max 10546.
Was able to get some more 1 on 1 time with the dummy without it being debuffed.
| Aimed Shot Test 2 | | Type Avg Max Count | | Hit 4943 5468 11 | | Crit 9285 12278 9 |
Hope that's helpful.
Last edited by Dralmoo : 02/08/11 at 4:46 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 4:53 PM
|
#105
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Shattered Hand
|
Originally Posted by Dralmoo
No debuffs on the target, level 85 training dummy. No Hunter's mark.
| Aimed Shot Test 2 | | Type Avg Max Count | | Hit 4943 5468 11 | | Crit 9285 12278 9 |
Hope that's helpful.
|
Edit: The later test with gear on suggests this conclusion was wrong.
Last edited by Gavinas : 02/08/11 at 7:13 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 5:37 PM
|
#106
|
|
Piston Honda
|
Originally Posted by Tirraxus
Interesting to note Aimed Shot is at a 2.9 sec cast on LIVE. Even at the slower cast time it still barely beats out glyphed arcane shot in DPS. Though that doesnt take into consideration 2 AS is only 44 focus to AiS 50 focus.
Using Lupius #s for damage for shots
Aimed Shot
34709 / 2.4 = 14,462 DPS
Aimed Shot as per LIVE cast time
34709 / 2.9 = 11,968
Arcane shot
9216 + (12% glyph) = 10,322 dps
EDIT - I just read Dralmoo's post above, w/ aimed hitting for less dmg and w/o doing further math while at work, AiS seems already "nerfed" as a good focus dump.
|
Also consider you lose out on auto shot damage while casting aim shot?
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 5:53 PM
|
#107
|
|
Glass Joe
|
Please delete.
Last edited by ov3rl0rd : 02/08/11 at 7:27 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 5:58 PM
|
#108
|
|
Don Flamenco
|
Full gear, no pet, 11788 AP with Hawk up.
| Aimed Shot | | Type Min Avg Max Count | | Crit 38021 39978 42005 17 | | hit 19268 19613 19972 3 |
| Aimed Shot! | | Type Min Avg Max Count | | Crit 39747 41425 43988 3 |
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 6:00 PM
|
#109
|
|
King Hippo
|
A few posts back I had some preliminary quick analysis of the a couple possible rotation options for those with the T11 4-set bonus. For those like myself that do not have the T11 4-set yet, here is the corresponding analysis:
The first is the case with in a 10s CS rotation doing 1 CS, 1 hardcast AI, 4 SSs, and then either a 5th SS or a MMM AI proc.
4 steady, one hard cast AiS, one instant AiS.
4*2.0/1.15/1.1/x+2.9/1.15/1.1/x=8 (9 seconds between CS, because of the CS GCD, minus instant cast GCD)
6.324+2.292=8x
x=1.077
5 steady, one hard cast AiS:
5*2.0/1.15/1.1/x+2.4/1.15/1.1/x=9 (9 seconds between CS, because of the CS GCD).
7.905+2.292=9x
x=1.133
which is 7.7% and 13.3% haste including Pathing, which doesn't sacrificing too much crit and mastery to accomplish, although it will sacrifice a decent amount. Note that this 7.7% to 13.3% range has a nice overlap with the previous 5.4% to 12.9% range we have for a 1.5s SS cast to a 1s SS cast during RF. Thus, it has a lot synergy. At these values the SS and AI casts are at (with not including any additional focus from the AI glyph):
07.7%: SS = 1.468s, AI = 2.129s with focus cost of 94 and focus regen of about 90.5 so a net of -0.35 fps
13.3%: SS = 1.395s, AI = 2.023s with focus cost of 94 and focus regen of about 93.3 so a net of -0.07 fps
With including the effects of the AI glyph with assuming at least a 33.3% AI crit rate when not in the CA phase and assuming 3 AIs every 2 cycles (2 hardcast and 1 MMM proc), that is 5 focus saved every 20s or 0.25 fps. Thus, you are only short -0.1 fps in the lower end and focus positive in the higher end. So even at that low crit rate, you only need about 9.6% haste to be focus positive. The ideal here from a haste perspective is to be as close to the 13.3% haste from gear and Pathing as you can be without giving up too many stats in crit and mastery.
Hence, with 3/3 Pathing, this means that you need between about 4.56% and 10% haste from gear or about 584 to 1280 haste rating with at least about 772 to be focus balanced with the AI glyph.
I am not listing an analysis for trying to add an extra SS into the rotation since it just is not feasible for people who do not have the gear to support the 4-set bonus since it requires 27.5% to 30.9% haste from gear and Pathing.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 6:29 PM
|
#110
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
Originally Posted by Dralmoo
Full gear, no pet, 11788 AP with Hawk up.
| Aimed Shot | | Type Min Avg Max Count | | Crit 38021 39978 42005 17 | | hit 19268 19613 19972 3 |
| Aimed Shot! | | Type Min Avg Max Count | | Crit 39747 41425 43988 3 |
|
That doesn't differ too much from loading your profile into FD (which at the time of testing still uses 1.448 as RAP-coefficient for AiS).
Settings:
- No pet
- No raid buffs/debuffs
- Rotation limited to SS and AiS
| Shot Breakdown | Cooldown | Focus | FPS | Damage | Frequency | # | DPS | % Dmg | Avg Non-Crit | Avg Crit | Crit Rate | | Aimed Shot | 0.00 | 50 | 8.17 | 28846 | 4.92 | 61 | 5865.32 | 54.7% | 20044 | 41290 | 41.43% | | Steady Shot | 0.00 | 0 | 3.09 | 5310 | 2.91 | 103 | 1822.96 | 17% | 3737 | 7698 | 39.71% |
Last edited by Eva : 02/08/11 at 7:02 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 6:43 PM
|
#111
|
|
Bald Bull
|
Possibly a silly question since I haven't managed to log in yet to see how auto behaves, but can all these analyses keep analyzing just our spells without including autoshots? The more full aimed shots we cast, the more autoshots we delay don't we? Depending on whether autoswing just pauses during the aimed cast (like during a warrior Slam), resets during it (like switching a weapon), or is just suspended from firing but still ticks up to firing point (like in vanilla/BC) a rotation that fires aimed 0.1s later than another could have significantly different autoshot DPS while having similar special ability DPS. Is there a justification for ignoring it in the static analysis above?
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 7:16 PM
|
#112
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Shattered Hand
|
Originally Posted by Eva
That doesn't differ too much from loading your profile into FD (which at the time of testing still uses 1.448 as RAP-coefficient for AiS).
|
Getting the same results in SimCraft using the 1.44 PTR coefficient. Looks like it wasn't changed after all.
|
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 9:05 PM
|
#113
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Proudmoore
|
As to the 2.9 Aimed cast time, it's a case of the patch notes being correct in one way, but very wrong in others. With 4.0, Aimed became a 3.5 base cast. Thus, the patch note effectively says -0.6 sec base cast, which is exactly what we got. Considering that Hunting Party and friends have also been acknowledged as still broken (client and server don't agree on whether resources are available), one would hope hotfixes are on the way.
On another note, my WQ tooltip claims each Mastery increases proc chance by 1.8%. Am I imagining things or was it 2% before? If so, and not just a tooltip error, that's a bit baffling considering proc chance was intended to increase.
|
|
Originally Posted by Caniki
Hey guys, I heard that Blizzard puts out these things called "patches" that contain "content"
|
|
Originally Posted by Darkside
Yeah but it hasn't happened since Ulduar.
|
|
|
|
02/08/11, 10:42 PM
|
#114
|
|
Glass Joe
|
An opening rotation consisting of Serpent Sting, Steady Shot x2, AiS, and then Cobra Shot to refresh the sting (with AiS being the primary shot) provides a substantial dps increase over using the standard Chimera Shot and AiS dump rotation while in Careful Aim range. A simple dummy test with both rotations shows an approximate 1-2k Dps difference. Once out of Careful Aim range, you revert back to the original rotation of Chimera Shot with AiS as a focus dump, and then when under haste effect again you use AiS as the primary shot (Chimera becomes the refresher of SS). I may be missing something, but it definitely appears that using Cobra Shot over Chimera Shot in Careful Aim range is the way to go at this time.
Last edited by Darklumiya : 02/08/11 at 11:11 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 12:09 AM
|
#115
|
|
Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Hunter
Black Dragonflight
|
Bug found:
When MMM reaches 5 stacks, the free, instant AiS procs with a slight delay. When the proc occurs during your hard cast AiS, both the casting AiS and the ensuing instant AiS cost NO FOCUS!
Until this gets fixed, we should definitely try to take advantage of this by always following an SS with an AiS at 4 stacks of MMM, regardless of ISS buff.
Any thoughts on how to actually model for this situation?
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 1:45 AM
|
#116
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
You can't realistically cast an AiS after every Steady when you're at 4 stacks. RNG means you might not get the 5th proc for 5-10 seconds, meaning you'd be losing ISS uptime & delaying Chimera. IMO, just consider it a bonus to DPS when it happens.
Anyways, I wouldn't count on this being live for too long. 2 free AiS (one instant), followed by a full focus bar worth of shots in PvP is insane burst, similar to S6 Destruction, which was nerfed in 24 hours.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 6:33 AM
|
#117
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
I´m seeing consistent results, Aimed does the PTR/FD damage, the master marksman bug can be insane. Using prepot I can sustain 40-45k DPS during the first 30-40 secs on the boss dummy. 22-25k sustained over 5 mins while the target is above 80% health. Can´t wait to test this on raid.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 6:46 AM
|
#118
|
|
Don Flamenco
|
Originally Posted by pichuca
I´m seeing consistent results, Aimed does the PTR/FD damage, the master marksman bug can be insane. Using prepot I can sustain 40-45k DPS during the first 30-40 secs on the boss dummy. 22-25k sustained over 5 mins while the target is above 80% health. Can´t wait to test this on raid.
|
Can you post a combatlog/worldoflogs/wowmeteronline of this 45k dps you're getting? I haven't been able to get close to that.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 7:23 AM
|
#119
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
You can´t track that short fight either in a log or recount in other way than "just in time". As soon as you stop attacking recount drops drastically as it keeps counting piercing shot damage a few secs, same would happen with the log. Its just anecdotal data.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 7:31 AM
|
#120
|
|
Von Kaiser
Dwarf Hunter
Turalyon (EU)
|
Originally Posted by pichuca
You can´t track that short fight either in a log or recount in other way than "just in time". As soon as you stop attacking recount drops drastically as it keeps counting piercing shot damage a few secs, same would happen with the log. Its just anecdotal data.
|
Use WoL and you can see data over time.
Or you could just upload your combatlog.txt somewhere for us and we can analyze it as well.
Edit: Or you could upload an image of the recount dps over time graph as well.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 8:13 AM
|
#121
|
|
Don Flamenco
|
Originally Posted by pichuca
You can´t track that short fight either in a log or recount in other way than "just in time". As soon as you stop attacking recount drops drastically as it keeps counting piercing shot damage a few secs, same would happen with the log. Its just anecdotal data.
|
I'm not able to sustain 22k+ dps over 5 minutes on the >80% target dummy solo and self-buffed, so if you're able to do that, it'll be worth my while to study your log.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 8:29 AM
|
#122
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Here it is.
That was the less crowded dummy I could find. The only debuff present was CoE, not big deal.
the discrepance between efective dps and DPS is the time from writing /combatlog to start attacking, and from stop attacking to write it again (obvious). The highest DPS on recount was 36k this time, after the 1º RF. RNG didnt favour me this time that much. Any way, 22k+ dps as you can see
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 9:04 AM
|
#123
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Gilneas (EU)
|
My average values seem to be very close to yours, however your doing about 2k dps more and your pet is doing 200dps more.
Would you mind sharing the rotation you used?
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 9:21 AM
|
#124
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
I´m opening with my CDS, followed by 2 AiS. SS to regain focus and again AiS. I´m not using neither SrS/CS during RF, only SS+AiS. after that, the "standard" rotation. AiS whenever its possible, and CS to Refresh SrS. What I try to do is to force the MMM bug, I do SS in pairs, and after reaching 3 MMM stacks, I do SS until the fourth stack. When I reach it, I shoot one more SS followed by an AiS. That way you have always a 60% chance to retain the 50 focus cost. Glyphs are RF, SS, and AiS
My pet has 2/2 WH. Also I´ve removed as much mastery as I could, reforging it all to crit or haste if the piece already had crit. I am at 11.3% haste (1150 rating).
Anyway, I wouldn´t give too much credit to those numbers, as said, they´re are very anecdotal and Boss fights may differ a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
02/09/11, 10:43 AM
|
#125
|
|
Glass Joe
Orc Hunter
Laughing Skull
|
- For those with the T11 4-set bonus, you have 2 choices depending on what your gear will support.
--- Stacking crit and mastery: You only need about 4.4% haste from gear and Pathing to support doing 4 or 5 SSs per cycle depending on whether you get an MMM AI proc. Additional haste over this is still beneficial but not required.
|
I'm curious about Pathing here. I'm only able to drop my Haste to a rating of 523, which puts me well over 4.4% with 3/3 Pathing. Since I'm 2/3 OwN and 2/3 Frenzy, would it make sense to drop points in Pathing and fill out those talents to get closer to the 4.4% Haste? I'm not sure what values Haste is going to have after that 4.4%, thoughts?
EDIT: Even femaledwarf shows a DPS increase with those changes (and my gear). It makes sense, but is a little surprising given how it has been treating Haste lately.
EDIT2: Going to 0/3 Pathing and leaving 1 piece of gear not reforged puts me at 4.5% Haste, but I'm left with nowhere to put 1 talent point. FD also shows this as a DPS loss (I put 1 point in Imp. SrS), but with 1/3 Pathing it was also showing Haste at 6 DPS per point, which I can only chalk up to FD being FD.
Last edited by sircuddles : 02/09/11 at 11:05 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|