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02/09/11, 8:13 AM
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#121
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by pichuca
You can´t track that short fight either in a log or recount in other way than "just in time". As soon as you stop attacking recount drops drastically as it keeps counting piercing shot damage a few secs, same would happen with the log. Its just anecdotal data.
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I'm not able to sustain 22k+ dps over 5 minutes on the >80% target dummy solo and self-buffed, so if you're able to do that, it'll be worth my while to study your log.
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02/09/11, 8:29 AM
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#122
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Von Kaiser
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World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Here it is.
That was the less crowded dummy I could find. The only debuff present was CoE, not big deal.
the discrepance between efective dps and DPS is the time from writing /combatlog to start attacking, and from stop attacking to write it again (obvious). The highest DPS on recount was 36k this time, after the 1º RF. RNG didnt favour me this time that much. Any way, 22k+ dps as you can see
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02/09/11, 9:04 AM
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#123
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Gilneas (EU)
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My average values seem to be very close to yours, however your doing about 2k dps more and your pet is doing 200dps more.
Would you mind sharing the rotation you used?
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02/09/11, 9:21 AM
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#124
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Von Kaiser
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I´m opening with my CDS, followed by 2 AiS. SS to regain focus and again AiS. I´m not using neither SrS/CS during RF, only SS+AiS. after that, the "standard" rotation. AiS whenever its possible, and CS to Refresh SrS. What I try to do is to force the MMM bug, I do SS in pairs, and after reaching 3 MMM stacks, I do SS until the fourth stack. When I reach it, I shoot one more SS followed by an AiS. That way you have always a 60% chance to retain the 50 focus cost. Glyphs are RF, SS, and AiS
My pet has 2/2 WH. Also I´ve removed as much mastery as I could, reforging it all to crit or haste if the piece already had crit. I am at 11.3% haste (1150 rating).
Anyway, I wouldn´t give too much credit to those numbers, as said, they´re are very anecdotal and Boss fights may differ a lot.
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02/09/11, 10:43 AM
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#125
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Glass Joe
Orc Hunter
Laughing Skull
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- For those with the T11 4-set bonus, you have 2 choices depending on what your gear will support.
--- Stacking crit and mastery: You only need about 4.4% haste from gear and Pathing to support doing 4 or 5 SSs per cycle depending on whether you get an MMM AI proc. Additional haste over this is still beneficial but not required.
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I'm curious about Pathing here. I'm only able to drop my Haste to a rating of 523, which puts me well over 4.4% with 3/3 Pathing. Since I'm 2/3 OwN and 2/3 Frenzy, would it make sense to drop points in Pathing and fill out those talents to get closer to the 4.4% Haste? I'm not sure what values Haste is going to have after that 4.4%, thoughts?
EDIT: Even femaledwarf shows a DPS increase with those changes (and my gear). It makes sense, but is a little surprising given how it has been treating Haste lately.
EDIT2: Going to 0/3 Pathing and leaving 1 piece of gear not reforged puts me at 4.5% Haste, but I'm left with nowhere to put 1 talent point. FD also shows this as a DPS loss (I put 1 point in Imp. SrS), but with 1/3 Pathing it was also showing Haste at 6 DPS per point, which I can only chalk up to FD being FD.
Last edited by sircuddles : 02/09/11 at 11:05 AM.
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02/09/11, 2:52 PM
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#126
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by alienangel
The more full aimed shots we cast, the more autoshots we delay don't we? Depending on whether autoswing just pauses during the aimed cast (like during a warrior Slam), resets during it (like switching a weapon), or is just suspended from firing but still ticks up to firing point (like in vanilla/BC) a rotation that fires aimed 0.1s later than another could have significantly different autoshot DPS while having similar special ability DPS. Is there a justification for ignoring it in the static analysis above?
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What you state is true. However, the timing of your AIs to your autoshots is really not an easily deterministic situation and also depends on latency, having to move, human reaction times, pushback, etc and will more than likely change many times during the course of a boss fight. As such, it is worth being aware of how it can affect the results from simulations like FD, but it is not worth to factoring into empirical static analysis of the rotation.
Originally Posted by Darklumiya
An opening rotation consisting of Serpent Sting, Steady Shot x2, AiS, and then Cobra Shot to refresh the sting (with AiS being the primary shot) provides a substantial dps increase over using the standard Chimera Shot and AiS dump rotation while in Careful Aim range. A simple dummy test with both rotations shows an approximate 1-2k Dps difference. Once out of Careful Aim range, you revert back to the original rotation of Chimera Shot with AiS as a focus dump, and then when under haste effect again you use AiS as the primary shot (Chimera becomes the refresher of SS). I may be missing something, but it definitely appears that using Cobra Shot over Chimera Shot in Careful Aim range is the way to go at this time.
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Yes, I can see how this may work out as a DPS benefit depending on your gear. let me do the analysis using my character, which may have different results than yours due to gearing. My character does not have the T11 4-set (which does not really play into this analysis since SS cast time is below 1s without it) and is at just under 10% haste from gear.
During the CA phase, the shots have the following numbers for my character with factoring in PS and assuming 100% crit for AI, SS, and CoS:
CS: 44099
AI: 85835
CoS: 14153
SS: 15023
Furthermore, with assuming 100% crit on AI, the focus cost of AI with the AI glyph (45) is about the same as CS (44), so focus cost is not an issue.
With knowing that we want to blow our RFs and other haste CDs in the CA phase, I will compare the rotations when under haste effects. The 10s CS rotation is like the following with 1s SS and a 1.35s AI casts in my example:
CS-SS-SS-AI-SS-SS-AI-SS-SS (this rotation is a little focus positive)
The DPS here is 44099 + 2 x 85835 + 6 x 15023 / 10 = 30591
The DPS is actually a little higher with accounting for the fact that an SS can be replaced with the MM proc AIs without losing ISS uptime. You can expect on average about 6/8ths of an MMM proc per cycle. This adds another 85835 * 6 /8 - 15023 / 10 = 4935 for a total DPS for 35526 DPS.
The rotation you suggest without CS would look like the following 4.35s AI cycle:
AI-SS-SS-CoS
The reason I have the cycle like this is to balance the need to fire as many AIs as possible, cast an SS pair every 8s, and fire CoS at least every 6s to extend SrS. This cycle is way focus positive and has the following DPS - 85835 + 2 * 15023 + 14153 / 4.35s = 29893 DPS
With adding in the MMM AI procs, the rotation would look like the the following since would not want to replace any of the existing shots:
AI-AI(MMM)-SS-SS-CoS
with a DPS of 2 * 85835 + 2 * 15023 + 14153 / 5.35s = 40349 DPS
With knowing that the MMM proc rotation will on average occur on every fourth rotation, the average DPS is 32507 DPS.
So for my character at least and the rotations for him that would work in both cases, the rotation with CS still works out to be better 35526 vs 32507. Now one thing that will even the situation out a little is that in the non-CS rotation, you can execute it the first 3 times through with skipping the CoS cast before you needed to start doing CoS every cycle to maintain SrS. However, you do lose out on the self-healing if you need it with the no-CS rotation. Furthermore, the CS rotation is a little more friendly on the move since a little fewer casts.
EDIT: This edit is to estimate the DPS increase of the non-CS rotation during the CA phase with accounting for no CoS during the first few rotations. The rotation is a 3.35s rotation of the following with expecting no MMM procs during those 3 rotations:
AI-SS-SS
with a DPS of 85835 + 2 * 15023 / 3.35 = 34591, which is still less than 35526. Thus, I will not bother to try to estimate an overall average DPS for the CA phase for the non-CS rotation since the value depends on the duration of the CA phase with shorter CA phases having larger DPS since the non-CoS portion is a larger percentage of it.
Let me reiterate that these numbers are for my character and my gear. With sufficient scaling, the non-CS rotation may be better for some players.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/09/11 at 4:47 PM.
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02/09/11, 3:21 PM
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#127
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Shattered Hand
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Originally Posted by sircuddles
I'm curious about Pathing here. I'm only able to drop my Haste to a rating of 523, which puts me well over 4.4% with 3/3 Pathing. Since I'm 2/3 OwN and 2/3 Frenzy, would it make sense to drop points in Pathing and fill out those talents to get closer to the 4.4% Haste? I'm not sure what values Haste is going to have after that 4.4%, thoughts?
EDIT: Even femaledwarf shows a DPS increase with those changes (and my gear). It makes sense, but is a little surprising given how it has been treating Haste lately.
EDIT2: Going to 0/3 Pathing and leaving 1 piece of gear not reforged puts me at 4.5% Haste, but I'm left with nowhere to put 1 talent point. FD also shows this as a DPS loss (I put 1 point in Imp. SrS), but with 1/3 Pathing it was also showing Haste at 6 DPS per point, which I can only chalk up to FD being FD.
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I believe dropping haste in favor of mastery in order to reach one of the theoretical rotation breakpoints is a bad idea for real world dps for 2 reasons:
1) In an Aimed Shot rotation mastery has simmed as 30-40% worse than haste at every gear level I've tested (from my own gear at ~350 ilvl up to 372 BiS). While the Wild Quiver proc chance did get buffed by 17% in the patch the switch to an Aimed Shot rotation has significantly decreased the number of chances for procs. For each hardcasted Aimed Shot cast we lose ~2 chances to proc wild quiver (~1 autoshot and ~1 arcane shot since AS is half the focus of AiS). In a 10s rotation using Chimera Shot on CD with one hardcast aimed shot and 6 other shots (either 5 steady/1 Fire! AiS or 6 steady) we have ~11 chances to proc WQ (sims suggest ~3.3s between auto shots when hardcasting AiS) whereas in a 10s rotation with Arcane Shot we would have ~13 chances a ~15% difference which pretty neatly counteracts the mastery buff.
2) Including latency and the inability to queue an ability after an instant until the GCD is finished the exact haste sweet spots to get an additional shot in will vary both from person to person and for an individual over time as their latency varies. To confirm this suspicion I took the BiS gearset from Simcraft and used the plotting function to show DPS as a function of haste (the gearset has 1425 haste on gear so the -1400 haste point is at 25 haste):

As you can see, there aren't any noticeable haste plateaus or significant changes in slope.
Based on this I would say for Aimed Shot rotations it's best to gear for haste over mastery. As gear levels increase haste also seems to approach crit in value, but I've yet to see a gear set where it is better by a large enough margin to consider prioritizing haste over crit.
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02/09/11, 3:27 PM
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#128
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Glass Joe
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Is there a way to calculate the dps gain you obtain from not using Cobra Shot for the first 3 rotation cycles of the Non-CS Rotation? I think that dps difference would be enough to bridge the gap between the two.
It looks like this.
Serpent sting, AiS, SS x2, AiS x2, SS x2, AiS, then the first cobra shot to refresh the serpent sting.
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02/09/11, 4:17 PM
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#129
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Glass Joe
Orc Hunter
Laughing Skull
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I believe dropping haste in favor of mastery in order to reach one of the theoretical rotation breakpoints is a bad idea for real world dps for 2 reasons
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I can appreciate that, but I was only talking about dropping points in Pathing (to finish Frenzy and OwN) based on the 4.4% Haste needed for the rotation/priority that White has proposed. It's my understanding that the simcraft results don't actually model a proper rotation, so the numbers when it comes to Haste would be misleading as they aren't based on a proper priority/rotation. My knowledge of simcraft is abysmal, so feel free to correct me on that. It would appear though that Haste no longer drops in value once reaching one of these rotation points as it did with SV, for example. Which means our reforging would be more Crit > Haste > Mastery than Mastery > Haste.
Even so, dropping those points in Pathing in favor of the BM tree showed as a DPS increase even on FD, and while still having enough Haste to cover one of these theoretical rotations, I can only assume it's accurate.
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02/09/11, 4:46 PM
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#130
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Shattered Hand
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Originally Posted by sircuddles
It's my understanding that the simcraft results don't actually model a proper rotation, so the numbers when it comes to Haste would be misleading as they aren't based on a proper priority/rotation. My knowledge of simcraft is abysmal, so feel free to correct me on that.
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Simcraft models a priority queue for abilities, the current one for MM is:
flask,type=winds
1 food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
2 hunters_mark
3 summon_pet
4 trueshot_aura
5 tolvir_potion,if=!in_combat|buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=60|buff.rapid_fire.react
6 auto_shot
7 snapshot_stats
8 blood_fury,if=dot.serpent_sting.ticking
9 aspect_of_the_hawk
A serpent_sting,if=!ticking
B chimera_shot,if=target.health_pct<=80|dot.serpent_sting.remains<3|time<5
C rapid_fire,if=!buff.bloodlust.up|target.time_to_die<=30
D readiness,wait_for_rapid_fire=1
E steady_shot,if=buff.pre_improved_steady_shot.up&buff.improved_steady_shot.remains<3
F kill_shot
G aimed_shot,if=buff.master_marksman_fire.react
H aimed_shot,if=cooldown.chimera_shot.remains>5|focus>=80|buff.rapid_fire.up|buff.bloodlust.up|(target.health_pct>80&(dot.serpent_sting.remains>=5|focus>=65))
I steady_shot
The priority list is user editable so you can test out different possibilities. The dps numbers are calculated by actually simulating combat with all mechanics implemented to the best of our understanding and includes latency along with the differences in ability queueing for cast time and instant abilities. By simulating for many iterations you get a distribution of dps values from which the mean is calculated (as are a number of other statistics). In order to get stat weights it adds some value (default 300) to the stat of interest and reruns the simulation to find the change in dps.
If anyone has suggestions for updating the priority lists, gear sets etc please try them out and post your results in the Hunter Simcraft thread, I'll be happy to add them to the repository.
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02/09/11, 5:03 PM
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#131
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Hunter
Stonemaul
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Originally Posted by Whitefyst
CS: 44099
AI: 85835
CoS: 14153
SS: 15023
CS-SS-SS-AI-SS-SS-AI-SS-SS (this rotation is a little focus positive)
a total DPS for 35526 DPS.
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Using my gear, I get very similar damage output as you, and serpent sting doing 11847 damage over 15 seconds, or around 790 dps.
If you replace the CS portion of your rotation with AI, then your total DPS for that rotation comes to
3 x 85835 + 6 x 15023 / 10 = 34764. The MMM procs will be the same 4935 for a total of 39699, a gain of 4173 dps. You lose all 790 of your SS dps though, so the actual difference is ~3400 DPS by just using AI and SS. You gain a GCD in the CA phase by not casting Serpent Sting, but lose a GCD after the CA phase when you will eventually want to cast it (but the GCD in CA phase is more valueable).
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02/09/11, 5:35 PM
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#132
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Glass Joe
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This might sound dumb, but why spec into rapid killing for raids?
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02/09/11, 5:42 PM
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#133
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Glass Joe
Orc Hunter
Laughing Skull
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Originally Posted by Deeyar
This might sound dumb, but why spec into rapid killing for raids?
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I use 1 point due to add fights and the fact that there really isn't another place to put it.
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02/09/11, 5:44 PM
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#134
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Glass Joe
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You don't gain experience in raids though :o or is it just when the mob "could" give experience?
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02/09/11, 5:56 PM
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#135
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Gavinas
I believe dropping haste in favor of mastery in order to reach one of the theoretical rotation breakpoints is a bad idea for real world dps for 2 reasons:
To confirm this suspicion I took the BiS gearset from Simcraft and used the plotting function to show DPS as a function of haste (the gearset has 1425 haste on gear so the -1400 haste point is at 25 haste):

As you can see, there aren't any noticeable haste plateaus or significant changes in slope.
Based on this I would say for Aimed Shot rotations it's best to gear for haste over mastery. As gear levels increase haste also seems to approach crit in value, but I've yet to see a gear set where it is better by a large enough margin to consider prioritizing haste over crit.
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A couple comments:
1) My suggestion for dropping haste for crit and mastery applies only in a very special case where you have the T11 4-set bonus but not sufficient other gear pieces to support the ideal haste amounts required for the ideal number of SSs per cycle. In that case, you are better reforging stats to support a cycle with one less SSs per cycle. Since that cycle actually requires very little static haste, you are better reforging for crit and mastery after meeting the haste requirements for that cycle. Haste above that requirement is still beneficial as long as it accounts for latency and human reaction time. Additional haste above that only benefits your autoshot and results in deadtime waiting to cast CS off CD. This case is definitely one well below the BiS case for which you provide data.
2) Were you do have sufficient gear to support the extra SS per cycle, then reforging crit and mastery to haste is beneficial but only up to the point where you can cast CS right off CD. Adding more haste beyond that point has no benefits to your special casts and only benefits your autoshot DPS while resulting in all of your shots doing less DPS or providing less WQs.
3) With that said, I do not really believe your plot that you provided. DPS cannot be a complete linear function with haste for several reasons:
- One problem is the range of haste you show. For the BiS gear set, the best CS rotation has 5 to 6 SSs depending on whether you cast a MMM proc AI that cycle or not. The ideal haste amounts to support this rotation is between 17.5% and 20.3%, which is a haste rating range of 2241 to 2600. This is well above the 1400 haste rating you show in the plot.
- The next is that you can't add more haste for free. Assuming an ilevel of gear, in order to increase haste, you have to give up other stats like crit and mastery and eventually agi. This tradeoff between haste and other stats is normally not a linear function.
- Even with assuming that haste can be added at no cost to other stats, here is the affect of haste on each of our damaging abilities:
-- Autoshot DPS does increase linearly with haste
-- KS is instant cast and costs no focus. So as long as we are casting it off CD, its DPS is constant with haste. In reality, its DPS will oscilliate with haste some as how haste affects the cast time of other shots will affect how much of a delay we have casting KS off CD. Regardless, it is definitely not a linear function. That's roughly 1% of my damage that is on average unaffected by haste.
-- SrS ticks are totally unaffected by haste. Thus, its DPS is constant with haste. That is another 3.9% of damage that is unaffected by haste.
-- CS is instant cast. The first impact that haste has to its DPS is resulting in enough focus to cast it off CD. As long as we have enough focus to cast CS off CD, its DPS is constant with haste. If we do not have enough focus to cast it off CD, then its DPS decreases linearly by the amount of delay time in its cast. The other factor is the delay in its cast off CD due to the duration of otehr shots casts. Once again, if we are casting CS off CD, its DPS is constant with haste with its DPS oscillating with haste depending on the resulting cast delays. This is another 13.3% of my DPS that is relatively constant with haste.
-- SS is affected by haste in two primary ways. The first is a linear increase in its DPS as haste reduces its cast time; however, once its cast time is down to the GCD (which only requires 1.46% haste from gear and Pathing during unglyphed RFs with the T11 4-set and 12.6% without it), its DPS is constant per cast. The second effect on SS DPS per haste is the haste points that allow an additional SS per cycle. These results in steps in SS DPS with haste.
-- AI DPS is affected by haste in complicated ways. Obviously, the MMM proc AI DPS is not directly affected by haste since it is instant cast and focus free and has no CD. How haste effects it is relative to how quickly your rotation allows you to do enough SSs to proc it. Hence, the DPS effect on the MMM AI DPS is definitely not linear since it is affected by the frequency of SSs (with is a step function with haste). Furthermore, when an MMM proc occurs is on a binomial distribution, which is definitely not linear. The cast AI DPS is affected by haste and increases linearly with haste up to the really high haste amount required to cast it on the GCD. But its DPS is also affected by haste in a step function where haste allows room and focus in the cycle for additional AIs, which is not a linear function as discussed previously.
-- WQ DPS is only affected by haste indirectly in that haste affects the number of shots we take, which affects the number of chances for WQ procs. Although haste does roughly linearly increase our number of autoshots to trigger WQ procs, this is not true with out specials. With a 1s GCD, we have a limit of being able to perform 1 special per second. Up to that limit, haste does not affect our number of specials linearly, it affects it in saw steps. For example, its requires about 20% haste to add an additional SS into the new CS-AI rotation. Up to that point where a new special is added into the rotation, haste has exactly no affect on our specials contribution to WQ DPS.
-- PS is also indirectly affected by haste. The PS tick durations are unnaffected by haste; however, how much damage each tick does is affected by haste in that being able to perform an extra special that procs PS per cycle increases PS DPS in steps with sizes depending on what additional special is performed in the cycle due to the haste. Even with a constant amount of specials in a cycle, haste still has some affect on PS DPS in that the damage will start a little sooner, but it is still the same amount of damage.
Thus, with all of these factors, I really see no way that our DPS can be linear with haste over the complete set of applicable haste ranges.
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