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Old 07/07/07, 9:27 AM   #1486
Cheeky
Great Tiger
 
Cheeky
Troll Hunter
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Zediono View Post
Unless I'm missing something, shouldn't you multiply the dps given by the proc over time (7.53375dps) by the % damage dealt by your autoshot to get the correct value of RAP it provides? I.e. lets say 50% of your personal dps comes from auto shot, it should be 7.53375*50%=3.766875dps assigned to autoshot or 52.73625ap ?? So overall about 84+53=137ap worth (excluding the +20hit rating) for Madness of the betrayer in your first example. Still a hardcore trinket of course
Steady Shot and Multi Shot are both physical damage, and would benefit from the armor reduction. Only Arcane Shot (and Serpent Sting) would be unaffected.


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Old 07/07/07, 12:13 PM   #1487
Zediono
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Steady Shot and Multi Shot are both physical damage, and would benefit from the armor reduction. Only Arcane Shot (and Serpent Sting) would be unaffected.
I understand this. I'll try and make myself clearer I was commenting on the Total DPS -> Effective RAP conversion that he made for the proc's armour ignore effect, which is wrong I think. He used 1 DPS -> 14 RAP, but that is only true for Auto Shot DPS -> RAP conversion and ignores quiver haste and talents. That conversion also ignores special shots, which are part of a hunter's personal Total DPS.


However I think I also got it wrong in previous post. To find the Effective RAP the trinket's proc gives (taking the same example as Welshy):

7.53375 Time Averaged Proc DPS with 750 Base Total DPS and 20% damage reduction from armour:

[EffectiveProctRAP] = [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] * [TimeAveragedProcDPS] * [PercentageDamageFromAutoShot] / ( ( [TotalPercentageHaste] ) * [TotalPercentageDamageIncreases] )

With [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] = 14 ; [TotalPercentageHaste]

[top] 1.15*1.2*100%


138% and [PercentageDamageIncreases] = 100% + any % damage buffs or talents you may have (FI, TBW, etc..) i.e. 103% damage with FI up for example.

With this example's numbers, it gives us:

[EffectiveProcRAP]

[top] 14 * 7.53375 * 50% / (138% * 100%)


38.2147 Effective RAP from the proc. This gives Madness of the Betrayer 84+38=122 Effective RAP excluding its +20hit rating bonus.

I'm aware one could use another (physical) shot to calculate the procs effective RAP contribution, but I think they all lead to the same answer in the end.

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Old 07/07/07, 1:29 PM   #1488
Bikiniwax
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I have haste gloves from BT that brought my 2.9 spd bow + quiver + haste item + serpent's swiftness down to 2.03 spd. I could still handle 1-2 more haste items and not clip shots.
Are you getting your Kill Commands in there and are they adding any delay at that speed?

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Old 07/07/07, 2:47 PM   #1489
Glaurong
King Hippo
 
Glaurong's Avatar
 
Goblin Hunter
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
Whereas a macro will have to wait for the server to tell your client the shot has fired before it will start the next shot in the sequence, thus incurring _twice_ the latency. Not a problem if you play with very low latency of course.
I see this a lot and I think it is worth noting that we currently don't know exactly what the latency shown by the WoW client is. If it is the standard use of the word then it is the round-trip-time of a command to the server. Time from when I send the server a command, till the server sends me back a response responding to that command. This includes time for the command to traverse the internet, be processed and acknowledged. I'm pretty sure this is the case since when the server is overloaded latency shoots up. This has nothing to do with the internet itself, just the limited processing power of the server, it cannot do all the things it needs to (including responding to incoming commands).

If that is correct then a castsequence macro won't incur a double latency penalty.

Example with 200ms latency (round-trip-time), 90ms one way travel time

000ms - press button
005ms - command sent to server
095ms - server gets command and queues it
105ms - server processes command
110ms - server sends response
200ms - client gets response

So anything that is processed entirely on the server, you should incur half of your total latency to get the results.

000ms - auto shot timer finishes
005ms - server processes auto shot
010ms - server sends results
100ms - client gets results

If you want to perform an action immediately after that, you will incur your latency + reaction/macro mashing delay. If I am hitting it 10 times a second (100ms macro delay).

200ms - client hits macro
205ms - command sent to server
295ms - server gets command and queues it

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

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Old 07/07/07, 4:31 PM   #1490
The Iron Colonel
Don Flamenco
 
The Iron Colonel's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Zediono View Post
I understand this. I'll try and make myself clearer I was commenting on the Total DPS -> Effective RAP conversion that he made for the proc's armour ignore effect, which is wrong I think. He used 1 DPS -> 14 RAP, but that is only true for Auto Shot DPS -> RAP conversion and ignores quiver haste and talents. That conversion also ignores special shots, which are part of a hunter's personal Total DPS.


However I think I also got it wrong in previous post. To find the Effective RAP the trinket's proc gives (taking the same example as Welshy):

7.53375 Time Averaged Proc DPS with 750 Base Total DPS and 20% damage reduction from armour:

[EffectiveProctRAP] = [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] * [TimeAveragedProcDPS] * [PercentageDamageFromAutoShot] / ( ( [TotalPercentageHaste] ) * [TotalPercentageDamageIncreases] )

With [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] = 14 ; [TotalPercentageHaste]

[top] 1.15*1.2*100%


138% and [PercentageDamageIncreases] = 100% + any % damage buffs or talents you may have (FI, TBW, etc..) i.e. 103% damage with FI up for example.

With this example's numbers, it gives us:

[EffectiveProcRAP]

[top] 14 * 7.53375 * 50% / (138% * 100%)


38.2147 Effective RAP from the proc. This gives Madness of the Betrayer 84+38=122 Effective RAP excluding its +20hit rating bonus.

I'm aware one could use another (physical) shot to calculate the procs effective RAP contribution, but I think they all lead to the same answer in the end.
I think you're correct in that I'm being overly simplistic in my evaluation of effective average RAP on that trinket. However, I'm not sure I agree with your alternative methodology. If you wanted to be very specific (which is what I'm gathering from what you've listed), you would have to know what the exact breakdown of the components of your dps. You've listed autoshot at 50%, but presumably that leaves steady shot as the other 50% of your personal dps (completely ignoring pets). Since steady shot gets 0.2*RAP added as the RAP contribution, you'd have to have 0.5*7.5/0.2=18.75 RAP for steady shot, which would add in to the total.

Honestly, you'd be better off just using Cheeky's spreadsheet and comparing your personal damage gain by manually decreasing the boss mitigation by 300 and then muliplying that by the uptime to get a rough estimate of added dps. Honestly, the exact result is purely academic for the question of preferential use of trinkets; apparently without respect to the method we chose to use Madness of the Betrayer outpaces the alternative trinkets, which was the original question.

I acknowledge that I frequently simplify calculations to what some would deem an inappropriate level, but in cases where I'm speaking generally I will often make basic assumptions (such as assuming all damage is mitigated equally, which isn't true - Arcane shot being an example of damage that is unmitigated), but I'll try and call those out when I make them such that they don't cause confusion.

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Old 07/07/07, 5:11 PM   #1491
Furo
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Illidan
I can tell you that when I use a cast sequence macro with auto/steady/KC I do less DPS than when I just manually thread auto/steady.

My ping normally jumps around between 250-400ms and sometimes climbs all the way to 500. I did a Magtheridon run where I did nothing but manually thread steadies...I ended up with 1100 DPS. The next week I used a cast sequence macro with KC and struggled to touch 1000.

To me, it just seems like I can correct for my high latency if I'm doing it manually, all I have to do is start my steady sooner. With the macro I have this huge pause between casts that seems to slow me way down. Keeping up a near perfect steady/auto rotation seems to outweigh the addition of Kill Command in a sequence macro. At least in my experience.

I don't have screenshots or equations but again, that's my real world experience.

Although, on even rarer occasions, I ping 50ms and the macro works great.

Last edited by Furo : 07/07/07 at 5:18 PM.

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Old 07/07/07, 7:27 PM   #1492
Serpica
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Dunemaul
Latency aside, how does machine performance factor in? For example, would it impact your macro-mashing raid performance to be getting 10 fps?

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Old 07/07/07, 7:33 PM   #1493
Djinn
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Latency aside, how does machine performance factor in? For example, would it impact your macro-mashing raid performance to be getting 10 fps?

A good read for some people that use Macros for shots and are getting low FPS.
2.1 - Macros Directly affecting fps?

Edit: Fixed url.

Last edited by Djinn : 07/07/07 at 7:42 PM.

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Old 07/07/07, 11:54 PM   #1494
Kiklion
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Shaman
 
<NoX>
Tichondrius
Another thing furo, is i believe KC delays your auto if fired in the .5 second cast time of the auto. Because of this I don't care for auto/steady with KC added in macros.

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Old 07/08/07, 12:36 AM   #1495
• Relwin
Lucas Cat
 
Relwin's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Another thing furo, is i believe KC delays your auto if fired in the .5 second cast time of the auto. Because of this I don't care for auto/steady with KC added in macros.
It's pretty far back in the thread, but yes, this has been known for a while.


i warned you about stairs bro

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Old 07/08/07, 5:47 AM   #1496
senior toasted bread
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Eonar
I've got a question, do you hunters ever use amplify/dampen magic on your pets for boss encounters? I've tested amp. against mend pet and it doesn't affect it, id assume the same for dampen. I can see a use for dampen on fights with a lot of magic aoe (Void Reaver, Fathom-Lord, possibly Lurker) where it would reduce the damage taken, however the other side of the coin is the -effect on other heals my pet receives (chain heal, PoM, PoH and 2 piece t5).

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Old 07/08/07, 12:42 PM   #1497
The Iron Colonel
Don Flamenco
 
The Iron Colonel's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Mug'thol
I'll test out damp if we do Void Reaver tonight and post results. I generally let him sit in through pounding, since he's get max AR.

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Old 07/09/07, 2:22 AM   #1498
Croto
Glass Joe
 
Croto's Avatar
 
Troll Hunter
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Another thing furo, is i believe KC delays your auto if fired in the .5 second cast time of the auto. Because of this I don't care for auto/steady with KC added in macros.
Just like any other special it does delay autoshots.

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Old 07/09/07, 9:50 AM   #1499
Kash
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Gul'dan (EU)
hiho!

I just like to mention that Doomwalker isn't immun to Scorpid Poison.I think a rogue told me that he is immune to poison. But accidentally I applied the Scorpid Poison on Doomwalker.

So yes, it works a 100%. Maybe this isn't big news to you, but I found it quite necessary to tell.

Have you noticed that already before? Because I am sure that Void Reaver is immun.

Another question: Do you wait till "hourglass trinket" procc's and than applying?. I'm not sure if the additional AP justifies the waiting time. (at 30% crit and a 10% procc-chance)

Edit: just did some calc's:
With 30% crit the buff would be applied with a 80% chance after 50 hits.

thats like 35 sek waiting time at 1.5 shots per sec., should be worth it

Edit: deleted some points in order to make everyone happy

Last edited by Kash : 07/15/07 at 8:52 PM.

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Old 07/09/07, 10:55 AM   #1500
Sapa
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Mazrigos (EU)
Post from Survival 2.1 raiding just in case any helpful soul reads this topic only. I guess it can be posted here to since its general stuff.
SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1

Its few pieces of my combatlog from yesterday Vashj. And there are strange things there that I can't explain. (or can't read combatlog properly)

Like questions:
*Does multi shot really delays auto shot? I clipped auto, but still auto hit the target 15ms after multi. While some clipped autos seem to be ok with 0.5s auto shot delay after multi.

*Where did i get 200 ms faster attack speed of the blue once?

Went checking logs for crazy clock and its not there. All 3 logs match, wws doesnt report crazy clock either during merge.

And what the *. Missed EW?!

22:17'54.680	Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2879
883	Zek's Expose Weakness misses Lady Vashj
The more that I'm looking at log more crazy its getting.
Its driving me nuts :/


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