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Old 07/09/07, 11:09 AM   #1501
Lactose
Don Lactose
 
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Tauren Hunter
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Expose Weakness has been missing since the Dragonstalker 8/8 days.
Reported as bug then, reported as bug when the PTR hit with the new and improved Survival talent trees, it's still there.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

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Old 07/09/07, 11:30 AM   #1502
Sapa
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Mazrigos (EU)
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Expose Weakness has been missing since the Dragonstalker 8/8 days.
Reported as bug then, reported as bug when the PTR hit with the new and improved Survival talent trees, it's still there.
Well everyday something "new". Thanks.

Got any idea on those delays?
I found quite some of them not following 0.5 special-auto delay when they should.


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Old 07/09/07, 12:33 PM   #1503
Glaurong
King Hippo
 
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Goblin Hunter
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Post from Survival 2.1 raiding just in case any helpful soul reads this topic only. I guess it can be posted here to since its general stuff.
SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1

Its few pieces of my combatlog from yesterday Vashj. And there are strange things there that I can't explain. (or can't read combatlog properly)

Like questions:
*Does multi shot really delays auto shot? I clipped auto, but still auto hit the target 15ms after multi. While some clipped autos seem to be ok with 0.5s auto shot delay after multi.

*Where did i get 200 ms faster attack speed of the blue once?

Went checking logs for crazy clock and its not there. All 3 logs match, wws doesnt report crazy clock either during merge.

And what the *. Missed EW?!

22:17'54.680	Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2879
883	Zek's Expose Weakness misses Lady Vashj
The more that I'm looking at log more crazy its getting.
Its driving me nuts :/
I answered your timing question in that thread. As for expose weakness:

http://www.thottbot.com/s34501

It has a spell school (Arcane) so it can probably be resisted. I suspect it works like Arcane shot and a full resist = miss.

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

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Old 07/10/07, 5:19 AM   #1504
Lactose
Don Lactose
 
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Tauren Hunter
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
As for expose weakness:

http://www.thottbot.com/s34501

It has a spell school (Arcane) so it can probably be resisted. I suspect it works like Arcane shot and a full resist = miss.
No.
The old Dragonstalker 8/8 set bonus had issues with it being resisted at times. The effect was changed as to make it not resistable (check patch notes for exact quote).
The missing started when this was implemented - or, I neither experienced it or heard of anyone else experiencing it before this point in time.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

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Old 07/10/07, 6:24 AM   #1505
Breakerone
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Blackrock (EU)
I got to bring up the haste stuff again. While I was checking if I'd prefer the Mukoa Gloves over the T5 Gloves as a next upgrade my calculations gave quite a strange result and I'd like to hear if I did something wrong.

Without going into the well known formulas I picked a base of 2050 RAP, 33.5% crit and the sunfury bow, which leads to about 1147 dps for a BM without IAotH in a pure auto/steady rotation.
Now, would I have the same dps on a 2.7 speed weapon, this would give a large loss in autoshot damage per shot and at the same time give a large boost, because your hasted speed gets from 2.1 to about 2.0, so in combination it would be an upgrade of like 15dps.

Now, the new haste items give you that large boost, because the rotations gets better without losing out on autoshot damage because of the weaponspeed.

So, calculating that a haste item brings me from 2.1 speed to 2.0 speed while keeping the base of 2.9 that would lead to 1204dps, which is roughly the same as I would get from 200 RAP. Now I know the Mukoa Gloves do not bring the speed down to 2.0, its more like 2.03, but thats still an unbelievable upgrade or am I missing something?

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Old 07/10/07, 8:23 AM   #1506
Osse
King Hippo
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Stormscale (EU)
Hi, I'm back after 'useless posts'.

So.. back to Crystalweave cloak.

I made thise tests with Serpent Spine Bow.

Crystalweave:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ntbgqnluih4uq&a=2

Vengeance Wrap:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=arsdmdsswzrvk&a=0

As you might have seen a bit over week ago I posted thise two pictures which are crystalweave and vengeance wrap with Phoenix bow.

Crystalweave

Vengeance Wrap

As you can see the tests with Serpent Spine Bow tests have very accurate crit rates and proc rates are about as equal.

I was using auto/steady + KC macro to do thise tests with about 50 ms as average and 60 fps. Had two clients open, one for the paladin to keep judgement up so dont know if that effects anything. (I have 2gb memory)

Say what you say theorycraft wise but I dont believe that you can go below 2.1 character sheet weapon speed without losing overall dps because of stacked haste effects.

I'm just waiting for the haste items so I can pick them all up and spec survival one day, that will be fun.

By the way, you can always proof me wrong by going to Blasted Lands.

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Old 07/10/07, 10:13 AM   #1507
Breakerone
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Blackrock (EU)
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Hi, I'm back after 'useless posts'.

So.. back to Crystalweave cloak.

I made thise tests with Serpent Spine Bow.

Crystalweave:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ntbgqnluih4uq&a=2

Vengeance Wrap:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=arsdmdsswzrvk&a=0

As you might have seen a bit over week ago I posted thise two pictures which are crystalweave and vengeance wrap with Phoenix bow.

Crystalweave

Vengeance Wrap

As you can see the tests with Serpent Spine Bow tests have very accurate crit rates and proc rates are about as equal.

I was using auto/steady + KC macro to do thise tests with about 50 ms as average and 60 fps. Had two clients open, one for the paladin to keep judgement up so dont know if that effects anything. (I have 2gb memory)

Say what you say theorycraft wise but I dont believe that you can go below 2.1 character sheet weapon speed without losing overall dps because of stacked haste effects.

I'm just waiting for the haste items so I can pick them all up and spec survival one day, that will be fun.

By the way, you can always proof me wrong by going to Blasted Lands.

I think your old links or pictures were a bit different, where crystalweave even had a slightly better result, but I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say now.
While I am a little bit confused for the moment why the crystalweave cloak is 10 itemlevels higher then the vengeance wrap, I dont understand why now suddenly 2.1 is the lowest possible speed.

I mean, everyone had a steelspine crossbow or even a wolfslayer, and I didnt see any problems with weaving in the steadys, so why would it get worse when you use a haste item to bring you to that speed with the sideeffect that even the steady shot is slightly faster?

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Old 07/10/07, 10:29 AM   #1508
Osse
King Hippo
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Stormscale (EU)
You dont see a problem weaving shots, but the actual dps when you use rapid fire and stuff in real enviroment dont make those speeds worth it.

If you see what I mean.

1.5 GCD, 0.5 sec pushback effect + ping = 2.05-2.1 Depending on your connection.

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Old 07/10/07, 10:34 AM   #1509
xbjim
Glass Joe
 
Murloc 
 
possible that hes saying 2.1 because of trying to fit a kill command in?

said he was "using auto/steady + KC macro".. i feel with 2.17 autoshot with ~200ms i cant macro a kill command because of lag or atleast it looks like its being delayed in the quartz swing timer bar.


edit; nm, that makes sense actually and could describe why i cant fit a KC in. 1.5+0.5+0.200 (correct? 200ms) = 2.2

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Old 07/10/07, 11:35 AM   #1510
Avellyr
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Alterac Mountains
You dont see a problem weaving shots, but the actual dps when you use rapid fire and stuff in real enviroment dont make those speeds worth it.

If you see what I mean.

1.5 GCD, 0.5 sec pushback effect + ping = 2.05-2.1 Depending on your connection.
This is a good point. The general rule of thumb I use is I don't want my auto shot speed to be less than steady cast time + .5 + 2*latency (usually 200ms)

I use my average weapon speed, meaning factoring in IaoTH and rapid fire uptimes, since making my other haste useless is counterproductive if I'm trying to increase my dps.

Last edited by Avellyr : 07/10/07 at 12:42 PM.

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Old 07/10/07, 11:47 AM   #1511
Harwin
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
This is a good point. The general rule of thumb I use is I don't want my auto shot speed to be less than steady cast time + .5 + 2*latency (usually 200ms)

I use my average weapon speed, meaning factoring in IaoTH and rapid fire uptimes, since I making my other haste useless is counterproductive if I'm trying to increase my dps.
Do you also use your average steady shot cast speed there?

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Old 07/10/07, 12:52 PM   #1512
Breakerone
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Blackrock (EU)
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
You dont see a problem weaving shots, but the actual dps when you use rapid fire and stuff in real enviroment dont make those speeds worth it.

If you see what I mean.

1.5 GCD, 0.5 sec pushback effect + ping = 2.05-2.1 Depending on your connection.
Ok, I forgot that you included the possible 0.5 seconds for kill command.
Well, then this would leave 2 questions:

1. Is it a gain or a loss to stay above 2.1 speed to get a perfect kill command once every 5 or 6 seconds in comparison to getting more dps out of the rotation and have it clip once every kill command?

2. Will there be a realistic (in terms of lag) point, where you would have enough haste to say you will not use kill command at all in favor of a perfect and tight rotation and still gain dps?

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Old 07/10/07, 12:56 PM   #1513
Osse
King Hippo
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Stormscale (EU)
I'll do some WWS tests with just auto/steady today then, can use Wolfslayer with and without Crystalweave as well.

Will see then.

Massive brainfart in typing.

Last edited by Osse : 07/10/07 at 1:11 PM.

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Old 07/10/07, 12:59 PM   #1514
Trohck
Piston Honda
 
Orc Hunter
 
Hyjal
Why would you macro KC after Steady Shot? Macro it before. That way you can take advantage of the time where Steady has finished casting but the GCD is still cooling down to get your 0.5s autoshot cast time in.

With 200ms latency, threading KC/Steady macro is hard enough at 2.1 speed, without additional haste effects like IAotH, Rapid Fire, Dragonspine, or Abacus. So I tend to agree with Osse.

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Old 07/10/07, 1:00 PM   #1515
• Relwin
Lucas Cat
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Well when under extreme haste effects (lust, RF, Imp Hawk) the best bet for thus far has been to abandon Steady altogether for the duration. I'll switch to Arcane, Multi, and KC as my skills as I can then still get my two shots out in 2.1 seconds even if it's just two autos since everything is on cooldown. (note I said extreme haste effects there) and sneaking in the arcanes and such is just bonus damage. Only relying on a Steady>Auto rotation means you'll just ignore how good haste can be even with the GCD.

Under normal conditions though, I'm trying to get my autos to under 2.0 with haste rating. I can still use KC then, but I'll only use it when I'm arcaning or multi-ing for ease of clipping avoidance.


i warned you about stairs bro

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