Beast Mastery Bible - Page 103

Glaurong · 07/11/07, 2:24 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

Well, this really begs the question of how quickly you can insert KC then steady. Since KC doesn't trigger the GCD, presumably this would be a function of the server client interaction. I'm not as well versed as others at the server-client arrangement, but it seems to me that once you cast KC, you have to wait for the server the acknowledge that it has been cast before you can start steady. Is this not true? If it is, KC has an effective 'cast time' of 2*latency.

Given that the largest gap between the end of steady and beginning of auto is 0.15 seconds, that would require a 2*latency of 0.075 seconds (75 milliseconds). That's not out of the realm of possibility, although it is a pretty good ping. Also, it's worth noting that I'm not including reaction time and client latency in that number, which would probably be a large percentage of 0.15 seconds, further restricting the requisite ping. It's probably not possible in any practical sense to insert KC at that attack speed.

I don't think a macro could cope at that speed, either. Remember, if you use castsequence auto, steady you're going to have the 2*latency problem (server has to confirm cast of one to allow the macro to move forward) which will create all kinds of havoc at such tight timing. I'm not sure how well (or if) the /castrandom Kill Command /cast steady works, but if it requires only 1 keystroke it might work for you.

You could always spend some time at the blasted lands mobs and run the combat log through my timing parser. I've done a bunch of testing with a steady/auto + KC macro and I've been able to average ~1.9s between autoshots with a Don Santos', 5/5 SS and a Crystalweave Cape. When IAotH procs I get down into the ~1.75s range and you can easily see the boost to my dps in a Recount graph.

The questions you guys are asking are easily answered, Recount is an amazing tool. The DPS over time graphs it produces are amazing and take all of the "I think", "it feels like" etc out of the equation. Between Recount and my timing parser I've proved to myself beyond any doubt I do better with a spam macro (I have ~100ms latency). I also can see the effects of procs/timers/etc as DPS spikes and gauge their relative values.

If you aren't running Recount I strongly suggest you get it now. I'd link to my parser but I forget where I posted it!

Glaurong · 07/11/07, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel

I don't think a macro could cope at that speed, either. Remember, if you use castsequence auto, steady you're going to have the 2*latency problem (server has to confirm cast of one to allow the macro to move forward) which will create all kinds of havoc at such tight timing. I'm not sure how well (or if) the /castrandom Kill Command /cast steady works, but if it requires only 1 keystroke it might work for you.

I'm not convinced the 2x latency thing people bring up is true. We have made all kinds of assumptions about client->server communication and what the latency displayed in the client are. I've been using a steady/auto + KC spam macro for a long time now and I've never seen delays large enough to support this idea. When my latency does occasionally run high I don't see the delays in steady shot casting after auto that this idea supports.

If the 2x latency idea is right then with 500ms latency my steady shot shouldn't start casting on the server for a full second after auto, and I wont know it is finished for a full 1.5 seconds after I clicked the button. Since my steady casts much faster than 1.5 seconds this would be immediately noticeable.

http://elitistjerks.com/412604-post1489.html

Kaladian · 07/11/07, 7:27 PM

My latency the last 2 nights has been in the 70-132 range going a 30-52 FPS so i dont think i have to worry about lag clipping autoshot with the dragonspine trinket. My guestion is looking at my gear would the trinket be the best upgrade DPS wise with us have void reaver down and no bosses in SSC. The dragonspine trinket goes for huge DKP around 400-500 with us getting about 50 dkp per raid. After seeing other players WWS logs i finally started logging fight to see where i'm doing bad. This thread is a great help for all hunters.

Khitana · 07/11/07, 10:34 PM

...about 80, I think.

I had my level 70 hunter tame a level 69 cat and then grind Searing Elementals (level 68-69) in the northern part of Blade's Edge Mountains for Motes of Fire.

I had the following pet loyalty increases:

Level 2 at 41206 exp
Level 3 at 82303 exp (41097 more exp)
Level 4 at 123541 exp (41238 more exp)

The cat picked up a little over 500 exp per kill, which works out to be about 80 kills for every increase in level of pet loyalty so far.

The cat needs 194924 exp in all to hit level 70. If this trend continues, the cat should hit Level 5 at 164721 exp and hit level 6 soon after hitting level 70.

mav1234 · 07/12/07, 5:34 AM

Hello all, sorry to ask a question more situated for a few posts back...

I apologize if this was answered already; I tried searching for Scorpid Poison Stacking and I read the replies and I didn't see anything relevant. Again, I apologize if this has already been asked

Tonight in Gruul's Lair, two of our BM hunters had Scorpids. Both kept the pets in through most everything, neither pet died. In our WWS, though, one of the hunters scorpids appeared to have almost 0% uptime, while the others uptime was as would be expected (100% more or less, since he healed the pet through caveins and what not).

So my question is, does the poison from a scorpid stack from multiple pets? If so, is it possible that more than one scorpid poison is stacking in such a way that it is crediting the poison applications from both pets to the original applicator, meaning the hunter that ended up with the proper numbers? Or can only one stack of poisons ever be active on the target at one time?

Zurgat · 07/12/07, 5:38 AM

Originally Posted by Khitana

...about 80, I think.

I had my level 70 hunter tame a level 69 cat and then grind Searing Elementals (level 68-69) in the northern part of Blade's Edge Mountains for Motes of Fire.

I had the following pet loyalty increases:

Level 2 at 41206 exp
Level 3 at 82303 exp (41097 more exp)
Level 4 at 123541 exp (41238 more exp)

The cat picked up a little over 500 exp per kill, which works out to be about 80 kills for every increase in level of pet loyalty so far.

The cat needs 194924 exp in all to hit level 70. If this trend continues, the cat should hit Level 5 at 164721 exp and hit level 6 soon after hitting level 70.

I'm not sure what causes the loyalty increases,, but i've had my cat "ding" while i was simply fishing in orgrimmar.
So, i can tell you that it's not purely experience related.

Lactose · 07/12/07, 5:49 AM

Originally Posted by mav1234

Hello all, sorry to ask a question more situated for a few posts back...

I apologize if this was answered already; I tried searching for Scorpid Poison Stacking and I read the replies and I didn't see anything relevant. Again, I apologize if this has already been asked

Tonight in Gruul's Lair, two of our BM hunters had Scorpids. Both kept the pets in through most everything, neither pet died. In our WWS, though, one of the hunters scorpids appeared to have almost 0% uptime, while the others uptime was as would be expected (100% more or less, since he healed the pet through caveins and what not).

So my question is, does the poison from a scorpid stack from multiple pets? If so, is it possible that more than one scorpid poison is stacking in such a way that it is crediting the poison applications from both pets to the original applicator, meaning the hunter that ended up with the proper numbers? Or can only one stack of poisons ever be active on the target at one time?

It works like Ignite did before, the stack applicator gets credit for the damage, even if others help keeping it up.
Seperate ranks can be up at the same time.

Regarding Pet Loyalty:
Pet Loyalty steadily (albeit slowly) increases when your pet is Content (yellow smiley), and faster when pet is Happy (green smiley). Additionally, pets gain Loyalty in some way based on fighting monsters (i.e. linked to experience gain).
With the tracking of Loyalty being as it is (non-existant), getting something more detailed than what's been posted would require a lot of testing, and would probably not be all that helpful, in my opinion :P
The fastest way of letting a pet gain Loyalty is keeping it at Happy and killing monsters (green or above to you).

Kaladian · 07/12/07, 8:54 AM

Last night we did Gruul,Void Reaver, and Magtheridon, there were 3 hunters in the raid 2 BM/1MM. We are all similarly geared and finish in the top 5 all night with the 2 rogues with S2 weapons. The other BM hunter beat me every fight, i dont have the logs with me cause i'm at work but he consistly had more autoshots then i did. With SS his attack speed was 2.03 and mine 2.1 so he should have more but not near as many as he is also he doesnt have IAoH like myself. Like i said i dont have the logs but for void reaver he has 125 autos vs 98 for me and Mag he had 93 vs 74 for me. Does this show that i'm clipping alot more then i think i am? We both just 1 auto/1 special rotation with no macros used. I use quartz casting bars for timing purposes. Here is his profile for measure here . My guess is i'm slipping way too many autoshots.

Serpica · 07/12/07, 11:25 AM

I have a question that I wanted to preface by saying that I have read all 10 pages of the Leotheras 2.1 thread, but I wanted to specifically address this to the BM hunters that frequent this thread.

As BM hunters, have any of you found a consistently effective way to kill the Inner Demons during the Leo fight? I've been starting off with a freezing trap and running to range, popping BW and my CDs, sending my pet in and opening up, using Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot heavily. I call my pet off when the Demon gets low so I get the killing blow.

This works moderately well for me, but it can be close sometimes (and sometimes I fail). The Inner Demons have been pretty difficult for all of the hunters in our raids - mostly because of range issues.

I've been wondering about Snake Traps, but I'm afraid that a snake getting the killing blow will have the same effect as my pet getting the killing blow.

Also, has anyone had any success using Growl or Misdirection?

neko · 07/12/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Serpica

I have a question that I wanted to preface by saying that I have read all 10 pages of the Leotheras 2.1 thread, but I wanted to specifically address this to the BM hunters that frequent this thread.

As BM hunters, have any of you found a consistently effective way to kill the Inner Demons during the Leo fight? I've been starting off with a freezing trap and running to range, popping BW and my CDs, sending my pet in and opening up, using Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot heavily. I call my pet off when the Demon gets low so I get the killing blow.

This works moderately well for me, but it can be close sometimes (and sometimes I fail). The Inner Demons have been pretty difficult for all of the hunters in our raids - mostly because of range issues.

I've been wondering about Snake Traps, but I'm afraid that a snake getting the killing blow will have the same effect as my pet getting the killing blow.

Also, has anyone had any success using Growl or Misdirection?

you can use snake trap, I do all the time I don't bother with freezing trap. I don't even bother with using my pet and yes i'm BM. All I do is once the Inner demon appears I wingclip him and get some distance serpent sting and unload. Also they take more damage from holy/nature spells so thats why I choose snake trap instead of freezing.

Trohck · 07/12/07, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Serpica

I have a question that I wanted to preface by saying that I have read all 10 pages of the Leotheras 2.1 thread, but I wanted to specifically address this to the BM hunters that frequent this thread.
...
Also, has anyone had any success using Growl or Misdirection?

Drop a frost trap (not freezing) and turn Growl on. Then do everything else that you listed. If you have Intimidation, that's a great way to get more threat on your pet, I don't think the demons are immune.

Breakerone · 07/12/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kaladian

Last night we did Gruul,Void Reaver, and Magtheridon, there were 3 hunters in the raid 2 BM/1MM. We are all similarly geared and finish in the top 5 all night with the 2 rogues with S2 weapons. The other BM hunter beat me every fight, i dont have the logs with me cause i'm at work but he consistly had more autoshots then i did. With SS his attack speed was 2.03 and mine 2.1 so he should have more but not near as many as he is also he doesnt have IAoH like myself. Like i said i dont have the logs but for void reaver he has 125 autos vs 98 for me and Mag he had 93 vs 74 for me. Does this show that i'm clipping alot more then i think i am? We both just 1 auto/1 special rotation with no macros used. I use quartz casting bars for timing purposes. Here is his profile for measure here . My guess is i'm slipping way too many autoshots.

You might want to check your log again. Many people miss the fact that the number of crits is hidden by default, so maybe you only looked at the number of normal autoshots and mabye it evens out a little bit if you add them.

Ishmaael · 07/12/07, 1:51 PM

Kaladian, how do his specials per auto's equate. Unless his ratio is very different between the two of you, it's possible he is just engaging slightly earlier (say, after MDing the tank opens with a full burn).

Glaurong · 07/12/07, 2:24 PM

Or he could be popping rapid fire and only using instants while you stick to a steady/auto the whole time.

Neera · 07/12/07, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Serpica

Inner Demons

I wouldn't waste time dropping a trap, I never do and have no problems killing mine. If BW/Trinket is up I pop both send pet in and hit Intimidation. When the demon gets close to 25%, I pull my pet off and finish the demon with enough time to go back on Leotheras.