Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Hunters

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04/30/07, 7:01 AM   #151
Breakerone
Don Flamenco
 
Breakerone's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Blackrock (EU)
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
1) Yes, we normally do Karazhan in two days because we swap people in and out alot (which takes time) but this week we transferred, which reset our raid IDs. So we did karazhan twice and gruul twice, and we had to cram karazhan into a single night (which, again, we normally don't do).
2) I'm not sure. I'm looking at the maiden fight now (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=5&s=4685,4817) and from the looks of it, my pet WAS taking more holy damage than just the consecration. Presumably it was also chaining Holy Wrath. However, when I look at Maiden's damage out(http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&a=28) I see she only had 6 holy wrath hits. Considering we had 2 warriors and a Druid in melee range in addition to my pet, I'd say we probably got lucky with the chaining. I seem to remember Alcaras standing on top of my pet , so there was a triangle between the him/pet, other warrior, and druid. I would guess that any chaining of holy wrath occured only between Alcaras and my pet, if my recollection of events is correct.

Short version: I think pets chain on Maiden. I don't specifically recall if my pet was hit by holy wrath, but from the looks of things I think it was.

Actually I'm a bit confused now. The name of the chained spell for the melee range is Holy Wrath, right?

Cause with the neat new feature of WWS, which lets you check out the full combat log
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&bl=0

I only saw the wrath hit your warrior one time. All the other times it hit ranged classes, like your mages and priests, and I cant see any chaining whatsoever. So maybe this is either not really displayed correctly or it was completely changed.

On the Curator for example everything is plain to see. The spawning Flares hit 2 warriors and your pet each time they spawn.

Edit: Whats even funnier, I just checked a 3 week old log from us and it was the same. 90% of holy wrath goes to ranged casters. Strange, or I'm missing something...
The only damage done to the other melees is repentance and holy ground, and I guess thats her aura.

Edit2: Reading up on a guide it seems holy wrath has been random all the time and not only meant for melee. It just causes bigger problems if it hits a melee, but neither in yours not in my log did I see a moment where 2 people where hit.

Edit3: ok, now its all clear. It is random target damage and it chains just perfectly. I just had a look at our log from last week and we had 4 melees in. The wrath hit the first one for 2068, the second for 2771, the third for 3407 and the fourth for 5595.

If my pet would have been in there, someone would have died in that moment, so sadly I'll have to keep it out. The only thing that has me wondering is, why no one received chain hits when your warrior got hit by wrath.

Last edited by Breakerone : 04/30/07 at 7:43 AM.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 7:05 AM   #152
Greenpiggy
Piston Honda
 
Greenpiggy's Avatar
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Daggerspine (EU)
Indeed - I don't understand this either:

Gore works out(modelling in the double damage 50% chance) at 25 focus for 73.5 damage
Claw works out as 25 focus for 65 damage

Therefore Ravager > Cat seeing as both have a +10% modifier

Am i missing something?

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 8:43 AM   #153
Breakerone
Don Flamenco
 
Breakerone's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Blackrock (EU)
I have to add one thing to this rotation discussion and the lags. On my server I mostly use a castsequence macro for steady/auto with the Steelhawk Xbox. As a BM my autospeed is 2.01 so there is a LOT of space for the steady which should be hasted to around 1.1 cast speed and I very rarely clobber my autoshot.

Now I was playing on the test server and sadly cant say what the latency was, because I have a complete custom ui.
But the point is, even when I was mashing the button like crazy there was almost not ONE single autoshot that was not clobbered by at least +0.1 and often +0.3.

So I imagine latency was not great on the PTR, but since many people play with a bad latency that really shows its a big dps hit in the end and I imagine MM hunter who try to fit in 2 specials between an autoshot have just about 0 chance to do so without perfect latency.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 8:48 AM   #154
Osse
King Hippo
 
Osse's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Stormscale (EU)
Gore (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 37 to 61 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.

37+61 / 2 = 49
49x1.5 = 73.5

73.5 / 25 = 2.94


Claw (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Claw the enemy, causing 54 to 76 damage.

54+76 / 2 = 65
65/25 = 2.6

So yeah, I dont understand how claw is better either. :|

Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 8:50 AM   #155
Greenpiggy
Piston Honda
 
Greenpiggy's Avatar
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Daggerspine (EU)
Well i'm usually sitting at about 300-400ms on the PTR.
The impact of that is doubly bad given that the client will not allow another shot to fire until it has confirmation that the previous one has cast.
The effect of that being that if you are trying to follow steady with a special, you then have to wait double the lag time to actually fire that special(minus haste taken off steady shot)
Beastmastery alleviates the issue somewhat as you are only waiting on a client delay in order to fire the autoshot rather than a server check.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 9:35 AM   #156
The Iron Colonel
Don Flamenco
 
The Iron Colonel's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Gore (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 37 to 61 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.

37+61 / 2 = 49
49x1.5 = 73.5

73.5 / 25 = 2.94


Claw (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Claw the enemy, causing 54 to 76 damage.

54+76 / 2 = 65
65/25 = 2.6

So yeah, I dont understand how claw is better either. :|

Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
I hadn't worked it out by hand, I had only been using the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is returning different numbers than your calculations; my guess is that Cheeky's sheet is not correctly calculating the possibility of 50% extra damage on Gore - I'll check this when I get home. Based on the numbers you posted it would appear Gore is superior, however.

As far as the use of the term "spamming" I only meant it with respect to having autocast on for my pet. I don't know how the pet cast priority system works, but my guess is that it casts whatever ability costs the most focus (given that the pet has enough focus to cast this).

As far as the model goes, from all appearances Cheeky's sheet works out focus per second based on ability usage and compares this with focus per second provided from talents / GFTT (based on crit rate) to determine how often an ability will be cast. Given that the focus per second usage on claw and bite (or Gore and Bite, for a ravager) is somewhat lower a cat is able to cast them more often than a windserpent can cast lightning breath, yielding a higher damage return. Presumably. I haven't dug into the spreadsheet's guts very much, nor am I inclined to do so; you can ask him how he models it if you need more information (I could be totally wrong about how it works, so keep that in mind). Empirical testing at this point probably would be both more accurate and useful.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 9:56 AM   #157
Greenpiggy
Piston Honda
 
Greenpiggy's Avatar
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Daggerspine (EU)
Hmm,

I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.

I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 10:13 AM   #158
Daenerys
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Hmm,

I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.

I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
Here's my LB stats from yesterday:
Hits Avg Max    Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% 
414  203 376    60    309 467 11%   10.1% 3.2%
You're clearly looking at more damage per focus, but as to whether that outdoes 3% melee damage, I can't say.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 10:32 AM   #159
Howitzer
Piston Honda
 
Howitzer's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Turalyon
More BM Raiding Input:

Last night we were in Tempest Keep trying out Astromancer for the first time and I have a few things to say about Beast Mastery in regards to TK up to this point... First, the pets are quite prone to death, (really fast death), if you're not paying attention. Certain mobs WW quite a bit and AOE damage on some of the casters in there is also a sure death if you're not fast to react. I assume this kind of shit will cease to happen or be way more friendly with the changes in 2.1. We'll see...

Having said that... If you can manage your pet's HP you can put out disgusting sustained DPS on the trash mobs and even on the boss fights. I was pushing 1300+ dps on the boss very consistently and peaking out at 1500+ on bursts. Needless to say, I could not pull off this kind of "SUSTAINED" DPS with the other 2 talent trees. Now I realize that full MM has some really sweet burst in PVP, etc. However, I'm speaking from a PVE point of view only at this point.

The screenshot here shows some numbers, (I won't post WWS results for Astromancer at this point), to give you an idea of what's possible when full potted, etc etc.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/117/1300eb7.jpg

click picture twice to maximize the size. Pic is 1680x1050.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 10:46 AM   #160
Breakerone
Don Flamenco
 
Breakerone's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Blackrock (EU)
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/117/1300eb7.jpg

click picture twice to maximize the size. Pic is 1680x1050.
Offtopic, but for some time now I try to get this addon which shows you the name of the shot next to the damage. People said its sct, but I cant get it done.
Is it sct? And if yes, what option do I have to use?

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 10:47 AM   #161
The Iron Colonel
Don Flamenco
 
The Iron Colonel's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
Here's my LB stats from yesterday:
Hits Avg Max    Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% 
414  203 376    60    309 467 11%   10.1% 3.2%
You're clearly looking at more damage per focus, but as to whether that outdoes 3% melee damage, I can't say.
I don't think this is the issue at hand, however. LB does do more damage per focus, but the time between casts (unless you get a crit streak or generally have a high crit rate) is somewhat longer than the time between claws. Keep in mind that although we tend to model abilities as continuous (for example, damage per mana) they are actually discrete (correct me if I'm wrong). Because abilties are discrete they won't act as perfectly as you model them - which is why the lower cost (i.e. higher granularity) of claw/gore MIGHT mean higher damage output than LB, but I couldn't say with any certainty without more testing.
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Hmm,

I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.

I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
I think you misinterpreted my last post, I didn't mean to imply there is a difference between gore and claw in terms of focus per second, but rather that claw and gore are the same but BOTH are different from lightning breath.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 10:52 AM   #162
Cheeky
Great Tiger
 
Cheeky
Troll Hunter
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I hadn't worked it out by hand, I had only been using the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is returning different numbers than your calculations; my guess is that Cheeky's sheet is not correctly calculating the possibility of 50% extra damage on Gore - I'll check this when I get home. Based on the numbers you posted it would appear Gore is superior, however.

As far as the use of the term "spamming" I only meant it with respect to having autocast on for my pet. I don't know how the pet cast priority system works, but my guess is that it casts whatever ability costs the most focus (given that the pet has enough focus to cast this).

As far as the model goes, from all appearances Cheeky's sheet works out focus per second based on ability usage and compares this with focus per second provided from talents / GFTT (based on crit rate) to determine how often an ability will be cast. Given that the focus per second usage on claw and bite (or Gore and Bite, for a ravager) is somewhat lower a cat is able to cast them more often than a windserpent can cast lightning breath, yielding a higher damage return. Presumably. I haven't dug into the spreadsheet's guts very much, nor am I inclined to do so; you can ask him how he models it if you need more information (I could be totally wrong about how it works, so keep that in mind). Empirical testing at this point probably would be both more accurate and useful.
There is a bug in the current version on Gore. I completely left out the 150% damage adjustment to account for the double damage 50% of the time thing. I also added in a 5% dodge chance for melee attacks. I have no idea what to put for mob parry or block, so those are still unaccounted for.

I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.

Your summary of the way I model pet special attacks is pretty much spot-on. The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.

Here is the DPF (Damage per Focus) using the correct math for Gore, and a non-BM Hunter:
Bite 9             : 4.13
Claw 9             : 3.13
Gore 9             : 3.54
Furious Howl 4     : 2.17 (Hunter and pet effected only.)
Lightning Breath 6 : 2.84
As you can see, Gore is only second to Bite in terms of effiency, and Ravagers will most likely be slightly out-damaging cats. Once you can get a level 70 Ravager I'll probably grab one.

I currently do not have any +spell damage added into Lightning Breath from Hunter RAP. Does anyone know for sure what the ratio is now? Also how do we compute the chance for Lightning Breath to critically hit, is it pet Int based? (I can't wait to tell the mages to AI my pet each time I rez him. )


Offline
Old 04/30/07, 10:59 AM   #163
Greenpiggy
Piston Honda
 
Greenpiggy's Avatar
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Daggerspine (EU)
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
Hits Avg Max    Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% 
414  203 376    60    309 467 11%   10.1% 3.2%
What is your spec?
The numbers take on a whole new meaning if we factor in unleashed fury and pet happiness.

Last edited by Greenpiggy : 05/01/07 at 4:53 AM.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 11:04 AM   #164
The Iron Colonel
Don Flamenco
 
The Iron Colonel's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
There is a bug in the current version on Gore. I completely left out the 150% damage adjustment to account for the double damage 50% of the time thing. I also added in a 5% dodge chance for melee attacks. I have no idea what to put for mob parry or block, so those are still unaccounted for.

I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.

Your summary of the way I model pet special attacks is pretty much spot-on. The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.

Here is the DPF (Damage per Focus) using the correct math for Gore, and a non-BM Hunter:
Bite 9             : 4.13
Claw 9             : 3.13
Gore 9             : 3.54
Furious Howl 4     : 2.17 (Hunter and pet effected only.)
Lightning Breath 6 : 2.84
As you can see, Gore is only second to Bite in terms of effiency, and Ravagers will most likely be slightly out-damaging cats. Once you can get a level 70 Ravager I'll probably grab one.

I currently do not have any +spell damage added into Lightning Breath from Hunter RAP. Does anyone know for sure what the ratio is now? Also how do we compute the chance for Lightning Breath to critically hit, is it pet Int based? (I can't wait to tell the mages to AI my pet each time I rez him. )
Thanks for the update on the state of the spreadsheet - it was probably irresponsible of me to present that information for modeling if the sheet wasn't complete yet (my fault there). I don't currently have a windserpent, but I might be able to run some tests when I get home (tame one and play around with it). If nothing else I should be able to tell if AI has ANY effect on LB crit chance. For my own reference, is there a stat that effects pet melee chance that the community is aware of?

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 11:17 AM   #165
Howitzer
Piston Honda
 
Howitzer's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Offtopic, but for some time now I try to get this addon which shows you the name of the shot next to the damage. People said its sct, but I cant get it done.
Is it sct? And if yes, what option do I have to use?
Its called MIK's combat log. It used to be an ACE2 mod but for some reason it was removed. You can find it on curse gaming.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Hunters

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beast Mastery Bible 3.0 Mattaos Hunters 1230 05/28/09 2:48 PM