Do I understand correctly that they are adding level 70 ravagers in 2.1? If so where will they be?

I have heard this mentioned before but the only ravager I know that is being added to the "tameable" list is level 61.

I've been going back and forth, trying to decide between BM and MM for my raiding spec. I want to be able to provide the maximum DPS possible to my group, but because I enjoy the playstyle a bit more, I'd prefer to go MM if it's not significantly inferior to BM. I've been doing some theorycrafting comparisons and figured that I'd pass them along.

For my calculations, I assumed 500 Agi, 250 Int, 1000 AP from gear, 130 crit, 120 hit, 32 DPS ammo, and a 77.4 DPS, 2.9 speed weapon (I approximated these based on Howitzer's gear, figuring it'd be a good representation of typical raiding gear). I did not include consumables (my guild tends not to use them as we're semi-casual), but did include Kings, Might, Mark of the Wild, and Arcane Brilliance. Pet DPS values are based on Cheeky's spreadsheet calculations and I used a steady-shot rotation for BM and a steady-shot/multi-shot replacement rotation for MM.

41/20 BM: 2183 RAP, 1077 hunter DPS, 380 pet DPS, 1457 total DPS
7/49+ MM: 2727 RAP, 1106 hunter DPS, 215 pet DPS, 1321 total DPS

Clearly, BM is a better choice with this particular gear set, and by a fairly significant margin (over 10%). However, if I were to use the same numbers, but with a 2.4 speed bow (the current "ideal" speed for MM builds), the 7/49 build would provide a total DPS of 1441 - very similar to the BM values. What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).

Still not sure what I'm going to make of this as I get my hunter closer to raidworthiness, but I think it's clear that if my goal is max DPS and there are no changes to ranged weapon itemization (at least in the ranges attainable by my guild currently), BM will be the choice I'll need to make.

Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. By making every ranged epic weapon in the 2.7-2.9s speed you depress the DPS of MM Hunters who cannot hit 2 specials between autos due to latency. Because of Serpent's Swiftness there are always going to be a portion of Hunters who want slow bows and a portion who want fast bows. With the infinite amounf of daggers available as raid loot, it shouldn't be too hard to add in a slightly faster bow/gun here or there...

The in-progress version has glancing blows modeled at the 2.0 rates on all normal melee (i.e. white damage) attacks. Against a level 73 boss it works out as a 26% DPS decrease to that damage only. I have also added in Cobra Reflexes in anticipation of the next patch.

The only remaining information I need to feel good about where pet DPS is at is:
1) Lightning Breath +damage from RAP ratio
2) New glancing blow rates and damage reduction

My spec should link from my profile. It's a typical 41/20/0. Pet happiness is pretty much always green; at least it was for those stats I pasted.

I think you are greatly mistaken about BM. MM has a very similar % of damage coming from Auto-shot. I am BM for the first time in over 2 years, and if there is one thing that is immediatly obvious right off the bat it's that BM spec is MUCH more involved when you're raiding.

Now, your comments about it outside of raids are fine, but I think you are not understanding where your damage comes from as an MM Hunter.

This is basically the conclusion I came to myself. This isn't saying you must be BM or you're gimping yourself. I think its quite gear dependent, player dependent, and has its ups and downs. But so far, I've been sweeping up the floor with sustained dps and its been quite a bit of fun.

what kinda gear would you suggest going for? and is there a certain focus of gems that BM should go for?

I will have to agree with the above comment. I don't think I have been able to see any WWS parses where our Hunters haven't had ~40% of their damage coming from auto shot.

Howitzer -
One of my real concerns with the BM build is the ability to function with out a Shadow Priest in particular or a good group structure in it's absence. Can you give an example of a typical raid structure for say a magtheridon kill? We currently only have one shadow priest and I cant see me getting in a group with him any time soon.

The other reason I have not yet respecced is I am still testing a hybrid build. I am currently 0/31/30 and self buffing to 1950RAP with 30.5% crit with a capped hit, come patch I will go up to 2k+ with that crit. Since the respec from MM I have consistently doing better damage than the other hunters in my guild, and close to running with some of the more traditional powerhouse dps classes without the benefit of a stacked group. I want to push the issue see if i can get some better group make ups than I am currently getting without hurting raid DPS before I pass final judgment.

Looking forward to hearing about the make up of your groups as I think it will be a great help. In fact if anyone else would like to post thier actual and fantasy groups setups that would be great.

Taz

If I've got a few mana pots, I'd rather be in the rogues' dps group with the feral druid and the enhancement shaman. Beastial Wrath + trinkets and Heroism is incredible.

I think I can help here.

First, I went from 41+ to 0/31/30 and spent some time with it, but then I discovered 0/38/23. You might give it a shot...LR really does not provide a large benefit given Hunter itemization these days. You will drop a bit of crit, but you should pick up more than enough AP to make up for it. I'd try that build before going to BM, since imo it represents a much better "hybrid" build and the ultimate non-BM raid build. Just my opinion, but crunch the numbers and see for your toon if you would be better off.

As for raid composition, a Shadow Priest is of course a great luxury, but BM is not inherently more mana-intensive than other builds. Yes, you are spamming Steady more often, but you are not spamming Arcane and Multi nearly as often. In fact, in my case, I'm seeing Arcane damage as being *barely* better than my Steady Shots, so I'm looking at dropping it altogether from my rotation. The only time it would be used if if I get a Quick Shots proc during Rapid Fire, since the GCD will start pushing Steady into the next Auto when that happens.

I've been in a bunch of different group make-ups in the past week of raiding, and I'm really liking the melee group. Shaman buffs are *incredible* for your pet, since they get all the goodies that Rogues get (10% AP, Str totem, Agi totem, Heroism), plus you get the Agi and Heroism. Furthermore, BS from the Warrior is a huge buff for the pet as well. Maybe even an MM Hunter in there for TSA. In the caster group, you get infinite mana...and that's basically it. I've found with smart consumable use, I'm keeping my mana up just fine. So for me as a raid leader (who gets to choose my group =P), I'm trying to get into the Shadow Priest group for trash/easy-farm bosses, then into the melee DPS group for a tough/new boss.

And since nothing is easy, the one exception is when there is significant environmental damage to the pet. In those cases, VT/VE spam not only keeps you plugging away, but it keeps your pet alive as well. So for Prince I always make sure I'm in the SPriest group, since my pet is always taking the shadow nova damage (no point pulling him out if he's going to get healed back to full before the next one).

There is no one "perfect" group for a BM Hunter, because each fight is different, but hopefully that gives you an idea of some of the situations I've played around with in the past week.