Honestly, after switching to BM I stopped using the macro completely. The timing, unless under stacked haste effects, isn't that tight. Since you're not trying to fit two specials between autos (nor would you be able to do so without significant clipping) you can easily fit a single steady or arcane between autos. Likewise, the reset time will probably be a detriment if you frequently get a variety of haste effects (due to inconsistency in attack speed and consequently auto/steady rotation).
I'll bring it back to what has been mentioned before: set up your ui to show racing bars. You need an autoshot timer right below your cast bar; doing so gives you a very very good representation of the rotation timing. I can't recommend this highly enough. The best part of setting things up this way is that once you are accustomed to it, you can time shots by looking at it out the corner of your eye, giving you more flexibility to focus on the actual fight.
As far as which autoshot timer goes, I recommend littletrouble. Bigtrouble apparently is having coding issues and zhunter seems kind of like overkill (although admittedly I have very little experience with zhunter). Littletrouble is lightweight and easy to configure - and looks nice when coupled with pitbull. If you don't have two timers, try it.
I'll bring it back to what has been mentioned before: set up your ui to show racing bars.
i am very interested in this, how can i do this ? do i need a specific UI ? if yes, please reccomend me one (atm using a custom ui, made with Ctmod). Thanks in advance.
Last edited by orsraunia : 05/03/07 at 12:14 PM.
Reason: typos
i am very interested in this, how can i do this ? do i need a specific UI ? if yes, please reccomend me one (atm using a custom ui, made with Ctmod). Thanks in advance.
Check the screenshot in this post. It's very easy to do: just get an autoshot timer (again, I prefer littletrouble but bigtrouble or zhunter will probably do just fine) and put it very close to your cast bar. When you start to cast steady or another shot, you'll be able to see if you'll clip the autoshot and if so by how much.
Honestly, after switching to BM I stopped using the macro completely. The timing, unless under stacked haste effects, isn't that tight. Since you're not trying to fit two specials between autos (nor would you be able to do so without significant clipping) you can easily fit a single steady or arcane between autos. Likewise, the reset time will probably be a detriment if you frequently get a variety of haste effects (due to inconsistency in attack speed and consequently auto/steady rotation).
I'll bring it back to what has been mentioned before: set up your ui to show racing bars. You need an autoshot timer right below your cast bar; doing so gives you a very very good representation of the rotation timing. I can't recommend this highly enough. The best part of setting things up this way is that once you are accustomed to it, you can time shots by looking at it out the corner of your eye, giving you more flexibility to focus on the actual fight.
As far as which autoshot timer goes, I recommend littletrouble. Bigtrouble apparently is having coding issues and zhunter seems kind of like overkill (although admittedly I have very little experience with zhunter). Littletrouble is lightweight and easy to configure - and looks nice when coupled with pitbull. If you don't have two timers, try it.
I can understand using the macro with a 0/4x/x build without the fear of quick shot procs messing up your rotation on your /castsequence macro. But I agree with you, with a BM spec it is way too hectic at times to rely on a macro as I believe you'll get way more DPS out of your rotations if you're manually timing everything on the fly.
Anyways, on topic, I made a thread on the Test realm forums hoping that the devs actually read concerns there. Since this thread and other ones on this forum have so many people who know a lot about the class I think you should voice your concerns there as well. Who knows if Tigole will actually read this thread and the other ones here at EJ? =)
Anyways, on topic, I made a thread on the Test realm forums hoping that the devs actually read concerns there. Since this thread and other ones on this forum have so many people who know a lot about the class I think you should voice your concerns there as well. Who knows if Tigole will actually read this thread and the other ones here at EJ? =)
I really liked your post, well constructed, adresses the real problems of our class.
The issue is that a lot of people flame posters like you, even when the posts are constructive ones, becasue they are "scared" of hunters getting a fair buff and thus, those who are at the top of their game, being able to outdps mages/rogues/warlocks (of equal value of gear).
BUT, dps is not our only issue, utility is. solution ?
1. Buff Misdirection in a way so 1st shot misdirects 3x threat, 2nd shot 2x threat, 3rd shot 1x threat. (increased utility)
2. Make silencing shot able to interupt bosses' spells, when they are immune to silence or make scatter shot an interrupt. (increased utility)
3. Expose Weakness to give +SD against the target, in addition to the AP it grants. (better synergy)
4. TSA to grant AP + some SD (increased synergy).
These are just some thoughts... i mean if i can come up with some ideas in like 5 min, how is it possible the devs of our class to have none solution after so long time that these problems (utility of our class) exist ?
What i wish is devs to go through the same endeavour, a hunter trying to get a raiding guild goes through. Maybe then they will understand...
I really liked your post, well constructed, adresses the real problems of our class.
The issue is that most people flame people like you, even when the posts are constructed ones, becasue they are scared of hunters getting a fair buff and thus, those who are at the top of their game being able to outdps mages/rogues/warlocks (of equal value of gear).
BUT, dps is not our only issue, utility is. solution ?
1. Buff Misdirection in a way so 1st shot misdirects 3x threat, 2nd shot 2x threat, 3rd shot 1x threat. (increased utility)
2. Make silencing shot able to interupt bosses' spells, when they are immune to silence or make scatter shot an interrupt. (increased utility)
3. Expose Weakness to give +SD against the target, in addition to the AP it grants. (better synergy)
4. TSA to grant AP + some SD (increased synergy).
These are just some thoughts... i mean if i can come up with some ideas in like 5 min, how is it possible the devs of our class to have none solution after so long time that these problems (utility of our class) exist ?
What i wish is devs to go through the same endeavour, a hunter trying to get a raiding guild goes through. Maybe then they will understand...
In line with other "alternative buffs" I'd say make EW similar to FI: simply increase all incoming damage to the target by a fixed percentange. That would make survival a very valuable raid spec - even if the damage were low (not saying it is) it could provide a nice raid buff to make up the difference. Really it would be all that different from blood frenzy - just decrease the percentage and make it apply to all incoming damage.
I agree, however: if they are unwilling to buff our damage to be competitive, at least increase our utility.
In line with other "alternative buffs" I'd say make EW similar to FI: simply increase all incoming damage to the target by a fixed percentange. That would make survival a very valuable raid spec - even if the damage were low (not saying it is) it could provide a nice raid buff to make up the difference.
fine with me, as long as it stays a talent that scales as good as it does now.
Actually, we need more talents that scale as good as EW does.
Well, the thing that bothers me, (and always has), is the straight up lack of responses from the developers or even a lowly CM on the hundreds and thousands of threads across the web about these concerns. The BM tree is obviously getting a little love in this next patch but the problems are so much deeper than that as you all know. A simple acknowledgment from a blizzard rep to let me and others know that our input and hours of testing and theorycrafting the class is not in vein.
Well, the thing that bothers me, (and always has), is the straight up lack of responses from the developers or even a lowly CM on the hundreds and thousands of threads across the web about these concerns. The BM tree is obviously getting a little love in this next patch but the problems are so much deeper than that as you all know. A simple acknowledgment from a blizzard rep to let me and others know that our input and hours of testing and theorycrafting the class is not in vein.
This may not be the right place to discuss this, but here are my thoughts on that: I theorycraft because I like thinking about math and games. Optimization and modeling are interesting to me (even if I'm not the best at it - which I'm certainly not). However, when you have a community of passionate people who spend many hours testing and verifying theory that they've spent many hours developing, you shouldn't dismiss them.
Now, I'm not saying we're being dismissed nor do I expect the developers of the game to bend to my (or our) whims. If they disagree with our concerns or have plans to take things a different way, I'm ok with that. If they feel they don't have to respond to the concerns we raise, I'm ok with that (god knows how many threads get spawned to complain about some buff or nerf, whether slight or great, perceived or actual). I also recognize that it is not an easy job to communicate between the developers and the players; someone always wants to put your head on a platter. It's tough.
However, a simple acknowledgment of the effort put forth by the community at large would be nice. Even saying "We recognize that many of you have spent a great deal of time discussing issues that you believe exist with the game. We're always looking to improve the game and will take these under consideration, but understand that ultimately any changes that are enacted have to originate from the development community within the company. Thank you for showing your continued interest in aiding in the development of the game and know that we ARE listening and seeking input from the player base." Yes, it's PR speak, but it's better than the relative silence to which we've grown accustomed.
Well, the thing that bothers me, (and always has), is the straight up lack of responses from the developers or even a lowly CM on the hundreds and thousands of threads across the web about these concerns. The BM tree is obviously getting a little love in this next patch but the problems are so much deeper than that as you all know. A simple acknowledgment from a blizzard rep to let me and others know that our input and hours of testing and theorycrafting the class is not in vein.
I feel that the reason we rarely, if ever, recieve feedback on our concerns is the fact that Blizzard has NO idea what they want to do with our class.
They keep applying band-aids in hopes that they get a better idea, or get close to the "fixed" mark, but keep falling short.
I was formulating a long post with many questions, and as is often the case, I answered most of them as I thought through the post. However, I would still be much obliged if one of the more experienced hunters in this thread could either run a few things through a spread sheet or point me to a post where these have already been run through. Beind at work, I do not have the time at the present to really flesh these out.
Rotation 1 - this is what I assume those testing the new BM raid spec are using.
2.9-3.1 speed weapon
Tight MM rotation weaving arcane and multi in between auto/steady (made tighter by SS)
switching to straight steady, auto during special hastes.
Rotation 2 - a comparable alternative?
2.1-2.4 speed weapon
strict steady, auto as close to the edge of 1.5 with base haste as possible
switching to auto, arcane/multi during special hastes.
My main questions are about Rotation 2.
1)If Rotation 1 is the standard, how does 2 compare in terms of DPS, DPM? (aside from being nearly fool-proof with a steady, auto castsequence macro)
2)Are special hastes(IAotH, RF, Trophy, etc) wasted on Rotation 2?
3)Is there an increase in shots per minute in Rotation 2 and thus procs of IAotH, GFTT, Mark of Conquest, JoW, etc?
4)Is there any reason a hunter might switch between these mid fight? (for example if 2 turns out to be more mana efficient at a minimal dps loss)
I realize this is a bit of work on the modeling side, but I am hoping some reasoned estimations might be in order. I apologize if I am missing the answers to these questions. Perhaps they are more obvious than I realize.
strict steady, auto as close to the edge of 1.5 with base haste as possible
switching to auto, arcane/multi during special hastes.
My main questions are about Rotation 2.
1)If Rotation 1 is the standard, how does 2 compare in terms of DPS, DPM? (aside from being nearly fool-proof with a steady, auto castsequence macro)
2)Are special hastes(IAotH, RF, Trophy, etc) wasted on Rotation 2?
3)Is there an increase in shots per minute in Rotation 2 and thus procs of IAotH, GFTT, Mark of Conquest, JoW, etc?
4)Is there any reason a hunter might switch between these mid fight? (for example if 2 turns out to be more mana efficient at a minimal dps loss)
I realize this is a bit of work on the modeling side, but I am hoping some reasoned estimations might be in order. I apologize if I am missing the answers to these questions. Perhaps they are more obvious than I realize.
I currently use a 2.6 speed bow - Lohn'goron. Partly this is because only 2 higher DPS weapons have dropped for me - the 2.4 from Shattered Halls (Skyfire) and the 3.0 from Black Morass (Twilight Longbow). With static haste (SS + Quiver) the 2.6 bow is 1.88. In practice I can't seem to cycle my steady faster than about 1.9 anyway with static haste, so that bow seems pretty optimal. Any slower and I'd either waste time or have to fire much less mana efficient shot. Any faster and I'd absolutely be wasting time.
Procs seem roughly ok for me. I don't get the full benefit, since my reaction time + lag delay is constant, but at least the steadyshot cast gets faster too. And as far as damage goes, I seem to do just fine, competing reasonably with the other hunters, who are MM and using Wolfslayer + Prince Bow.
I have been worried about spending DKP on the Dragonspine trophy until I get a slower bow - right now it seems like I just wouldn't get enough benefit out of it. Ideally I think I'd want a 2.7-2.8 speed bow - I'd waste a little time on steady-auto cycles, but get full benefit out of haste cycles, and have a little more leeway for post 2.1 kill command.
I just found it personally impractical to use a 2.4 speed base bow. Yeah, with anticipating lag on the autoshot bar etc I could sometimes get those shots in faster, but I'd also clip shots occasionally, and I'd much rather lose 10% of my time every shot than clip 10% of my shots, since they do around the same damage but the second costs me more mana.
NOTE: My damage amounts are based on anecdotal, not rigorously tested experience. My bow timings however are based on actual combat logs (I've still got all 3 bows in case mechanics change)
I think the prime example of hunters being ignored is the feign death issue. After the change on this (ie the 2 to 3 second delay between hitting it and actually dropping combat), I figured this was just another intended class change that they never specifically state. Then, Blue confirmed it as a bug.
Just a brief follow-up, this is going to be fixed in the next patch. (No I can't tell you exactly when that will be, sorry.) We'll be keeping an eye on things as always in case anything else crops up with it.
The next month, early February, we were reassured that
Feign Death is still an issue that is being worked on. Once we know the fix is good and we're going to be putting it in, we'll try to let you know.
Yet, FD has not been addressed in game or in the patch notes. Not only that, but they haven't even remarked on the issue since this post.
I have a question regarding stat selection with BM spec.
I am in the process of resocketing some of my gear, mainly the Ebon Netherscale set. So far, from my 1+ weeks of personal experience, my pet makes up about 1/4 to 1/3 of my total damage output. Since 22% of my RAP goes to pet AP, and frenzy/BW scales with pet AP, it makes sense for a BM hunter to stack AP.
However, I have always been a fan of crit over RAP. When i was marks, I was running with 2100 RAP and 27% crit self buffed. While pet is 1/3 of my damage, 2/3 of the damage still comes from me shooting. Stacking AP gems makes me feel like that I'm gimping my own damage in the process of buffing the pet. With BoK readily available in raid (so it is comparing 1.1 agi to 2 ap), and considering GFTT and Hourglass procs, I still find myself socketing my gears with +8 agi over +16 ap.
Now the above outlines my limited understanding of the BM spec, and I am wondering if any of you here can shed some light for me regarding the issue.
I have a question regarding stat selection with BM spec.
I am in the process of resocketing some of my gear, mainly the Ebon Netherscale set. So far, from my 1+ weeks of personal experience, my pet makes up about 1/4 to 1/3 of my total damage output. Since 22% of my RAP goes to pet AP, and frenzy/BW scales with pet AP, it makes sense for a BM hunter to stack AP.
However, I have always been a fan of crit over RAP. When i was marks, I was running with 2100 RAP and 27% crit self buffed. While pet is 1/3 of my damage, 2/3 of the damage still comes from me shooting. Stacking AP gems makes me feel like that I'm gimping my own damage in the process of buffing the pet. With BoK readily available in raid (so it is comparing 1.1 agi to 2 ap), and considering GFTT and Hourglass procs, I still find myself socketing my gears with +8 agi over +16 ap.
Now the above outlines my limited understanding of the BM spec, and I am wondering if any of you here can shed some light for me regarding the issue.
I would balance the two. Make sure your hit rating is maxed since you have no surefooted, make sure you're at or between 1750-1900 self buffed RAP as BM, and try to maintain a 25% crit rating at least with raid buffs / pots, etc. If you do that, you should be good to go. I would never stack totally on RAP, thats not logical.
I would balance the two. Make sure your hit rating is maxed since you have no surefooted, make sure you're at or between 1750-1900 self buffed RAP as BM, and try to maintain a 25% crit rating at least with raid buffs / pots, etc. If you do that, you should be good to go. I would never stack totally on RAP, thats not logical.
What blue socket would you suggest using? I plan on re-socketing all my items for 2.1, and just follow the socket color.
What im thinking is rotating the 16 AP gem and the 8 agi gem so i keep a balance.
Anyway, my real concern are the blue and yellow gems.
blue - 4 crit and 6 stam or 4 agi and 6 stam - leaning towards 4 agi one : /
yellow - 8 crit rating or 4 agi and 4 hit - if my his isn't at 5% then ill probally do the hit one, otherwise im thinking 8 crit rating.
What blue socket would you suggest using? I plan on re-socketing all my items for 2.1, and just follow the socket color.
What im thinking is rotating the 16 AP gem and the 8 agi gem so i keep a balance.
Anyway, my real concern are the blue and yellow gems.
blue - 4 crit and 6 stam or 4 agi and 6 stam - leaning towards 4 agi one : /
yellow - 8 crit rating or 4 agi and 4 hit - if my his isn't at 5% then ill probally do the hit one, otherwise im thinking 8 crit rating.
all input would be appreciated.
Blue sockets are horrible for DPS gears. If the socket bonus is comparable to what you lose for matching socket color (such as in the case of Gloves of Quickening, where you lose 1 Agi and gain 4 Stam), I'd almost always use 4Agi one over 4Crit. Otherwise, for something such as Ebon Netherscale Breastplate, I'd ignore the socket bonus and go with 3 rubies.
Rating for rating, Hit always > Crit when you're not at the max hit cap of 8.6%. Also, Agi is almost always superior than crit, unless you have insane amount of RAP with gimpy crit %.
Are there any new red/yellow gems that are interesting to get specifically for us in 2.1? I see this new Infused Nightseye but haven't noticed the others. I know about the new Consortium metagem which will be sweet.
05/03/07, 12:13 PM
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