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Old 04/26/07, 1:23 PM   #31
Howitzer
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Turalyon
The other thing I was thinking about in 2.1 is the fact that it will take 30 shots to maximize your new Hunter's Mark to 440 RAP. Having 5/5 serpent's swiftness will decrease the time it will take to get you to that max level especially if you're the only hunter in a 25 man raid, (which is quite often the case in my guild).

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Old 04/26/07, 1:24 PM   #32
Valkyrus
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by PhoR View Post
If you out-range your pet, it auto-dismisses. So how can you use that to your advantage?
Call a safezone on the opposite side of the room from the entrance. Put your pet on stay a bit behind the raid before you engage the fight. Have the pet attack gruul as the tanks are running in (but don't use dash/dive, and no pet skills at the start.. you dont' want to beat the tanks to gruul or out-threat the secondary tank at the start or he'll take hateful and die)
When the first ground slam is about to happen, put pet on passive.. he'll run back to the stay spot and dismiss because of range. Then just re-call him after the shatter and attack again.
It's simple strats like this that can make BM spec just fine in raid situations.
You just have to figure them out.
Correct me if I am wrong, but would that not reset the pets stay position?
I see that working for the first shatter, but as soon as you call pet you would need to resetup his stay position.

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Old 04/26/07, 1:30 PM   #33
Beerbaron
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Kargath
random answers:
- BM hunters use replacement cycles with 2.7 and faster weapons: special, auto, special, auto.. etc (where special is steady, auto, multi)

- multishot from a BM is generally a waste of mana on a single target though.

- when imp hawk procs, steady shot's cast time is sped up. most epic weapons are 2.6 or slower, so even with that proc, you can still maintain your shot cycle w/o too many issues

I need to do more research, but for post-patch I'm changing from MM to BM and will be stacking leather agi/ap extensively. a lighter mana burning steady/auto replacement cycle and dropping multishot will help alleviate mana issues. it really seems like this setup will be a good mix of dps and endurance.. just need to math it out more w/ gear availability. i'm almost ready to start believing that a BM in complete leather who FD+drinks (25-35% of their dmg continues while drinking) would do more than a hunter who tried to avoid FD+drink with mail int/mp5 gear.

BM also has fringe benefits:
- BM is much more welcome with a shadow priest than MM, potentially resolving mana issues when in full leather.
- replacement cycles are much more forgiving with your latency unless you are trying to thread a needle with a 2.3 type weapon (not a typical speed for epics though)

Last edited by Beerbaron : 04/26/07 at 1:38 PM.

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Old 04/26/07, 1:36 PM   #34
brannstokk
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Wildhammer
My BM rotation is Auto-Steady unless TBW is up, in which case I will use the higher-damage specials (Multi and Arcane) in place of Steadies, since they cost 20% less mana under the effect of TBW.

I also use Multi and Arcane with Rapid fire, since weaving Steadies between every RF Auto is impossible.

I pretty much believe the devs intended BM hunters to use the Auto-Steady predominantly, since it's very mana efficient. The surplus mana to be used for Mends.

Last edited by brannstokk : 04/26/07 at 1:41 PM. Reason: Clarification.

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Old 04/26/07, 1:40 PM   #35
Norwest
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
2) All of the epic ranged weapons are 2.7+ speed. They are perfect for a auto/special rotation with the 20% haste adjustment. Trying to fit 2 specials between autos is very difficult as MM, and gets impossible with Quick Shots.

I'm not sure what you mean by a auto/special rotation with BM. How can you fit specials in with a 1.95 attack speed?

Here is what my theorycrafting on BM found:
There's hardly a reason to use special shots at all. You can't fit them in properly, they have to replace a steady. They do provide larger DPS, but at a very large cost.

The damage per mana of upgrading a Steady to an Arcane comes out to 0.65 damage per mana, the cost of a multi is 1.35 damage per mana (single target). To give some perspective, Serpent sting has around 4 damage per mana.

Specials are good for the following situation for a BM:
If you are with a Shadow priest
If it is a burst phase
If you have mana near the end of a fight
When you use The Beast Within.

Other than that, you are just wasting mana, and you are better off stacking the AP/crit. The BM build really breaks hunter's reliance on mana. So far the best builds I've found have used iAotH with a 2.6 - 2.7 after accounting for lag. At low latency 2.5 is viable but there's no good guns in that range.

One other interesting thing I turned up, is that the +haste enchants are still viable for the BM build. My spreadsheets showed the +10 haste rating to gloves slightly above +24AP

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Old 04/26/07, 1:41 PM   #36
Glaurong
King Hippo
 
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Goblin Hunter
 
Hyjal
I've been BM for a while now, been a fan of it since they added serpent's swiftness. By far the most powerful talent we have. There was a lot of talk about BM vs MM in the main hunter thread and I don't think my opinions have changed much since then.

A BM hunter with the right bow (2.7-2.8), using a priority queue will only be about 5-10% behind a MM hunter with a similar bow, or a MM hunter with a slower bow (3.2) who slots 2 specials and delays autos. That 5-10% is easily made up by the buffed pet.

Also I posted this in the hunting hunters thread. If you want to see what a pretty decent full burn rotation looks like as a BM hunter with a 2.8 speed weapon (with lots of haste effects thrown in to complicate things.

Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I recorded another and put it up on youtube, another perspective of complicated shot selection. Proc management and stuff. It was just a heroic Quag, I had bloodlust for a good chunk of the fight and I proced Improved Aspect of the Hawk a few times. It's certainly not my finest work but as you can see by the apparently spasming Orc in the middle of the screen a lot is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abT2g-pIDY8

Edit: I died, he died and I ran out of mana at about the same time (1:30 into the fight) I was using a full burn priority queue with top rank spells.

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Old 04/26/07, 1:43 PM   #37
Howitzer
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Turalyon
Are Cats the new best-BM pets considering the LB nerf last patch? Or any pet with a Gore ability like a Ravager?

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Old 04/26/07, 1:45 PM   #38
Norwest
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by brannstokk View Post
I also use Multi and Arcane with Rapid fire, since weaving Steadies between every RF Auto is impossible.
That was one of the questions I had. How does a BM use rapid fire effectively? I'm going to be running some numbers on that and looking at how to best combine TBW, Rapid Fire, iAotH, and Trinkets.

One question for the hunter community, what happens when you swap bows in combat? Is there a cooldown on your autoshot?

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Old 04/26/07, 1:47 PM   #39
Beerbaron
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by a auto/special rotation with BM. How can you fit specials in with a 1.95 attack speed?

Here is what my theorycrafting on BM found:
There's hardly a reason to use special shots at all. You can't fit them in properly, they have to replace a steady. They do provide larger DPS, but at a very large cost.
steady shot *is* a special. auto/special rotations are called replacement cycles. the core cycle is auto/steady, but you replace arcane/multi in as mana allows.

btw, another bonus to BM is that you can sync your best trinket with TBW.

Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
That was one of the questions I had. How does a BM use rapid fire effectively? I'm going to be running some numbers on that and looking at how to best combine TBW, Rapid Fire, iAotH, and Trinkets.
that's part of the beauty of a replacment cycle.. its so simple. since most epics are 2.7 or slower.. when haste effets proc, you continue with your cycle. it would take an effective post-haste weapon speed of about 1.5 + latency to start delaying autoshots.. even then.. its best to continue with your cycle (possibly focusing on instants instead of steady at that point tho).

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Old 04/26/07, 1:51 PM   #40
Glaurong
King Hippo
 
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Goblin Hunter
 
Hyjal
A cat with Bite and Claw 9 after the glancing change will be pretty close if not a bit better than a windserpent. As of right now it is pretty close just because of the added uptime of FI with a bite/claw pet. Pets have buggy ability refresh/global cools sometimes they can use multiple abilities at once, sometimes not. Overall bite/claw has been able to dump way more focus than I first thought.

On anything that gets stunned or immobilized and triggers the stupid windserpent caster behavior, a cat do better.

As far as a ravager goes I can't really comment, I refuse to level one up from 63 to see.

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Old 04/26/07, 1:59 PM   #41
Howitzer
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
A cat with Bite and Claw 9 after the glancing change will be pretty close if not a bit better than a windserpent. As of right now it is pretty close just because of the added uptime of FI with a bite/claw pet. Pets have buggy ability refresh/global cools sometimes they can use multiple abilities at once, sometimes not. Overall bite/claw has been able to dump way more focus than I first thought.

On anything that gets stunned or immobilized and triggers the stupid windserpent caster behavior, a cat do better.

As far as a ravager goes I can't really comment, I refuse to level one up from 63 to see.
LOL same here man. There's nothing worse than leveling up a pet at that level to 70. I did it with a wolf at 67 and it was painful.

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Old 04/26/07, 2:05 PM   #42
Norwest
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
that's part of the beauty of a replacment cycle.. its so simple. since most epics are 2.7 or slower.. when haste effets proc, you continue with your cycle. it would take an effective post-haste weapon speed of about 1.5 + latency to start delaying autoshots.. even then.. its best to continue with your cycle (possibly focusing on instants instead of steady at that point tho).
With Rapid Fire, a 2.7 becomes: 2.7/1.2/1.15/1.4= 1.397 sec. That's too fast, unfortunately. Taking steady out may be the best idea, but once arcane/multi are both on cool down there's not much you can do. You may even have to do the unspeakable and use Serpent Sting (ewwwww). Either way you won't get the same amount of damage out of a rapid fire that a MM/SV would get since taking out steady or delaying auto both hurt DPS a lot.

Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
steady shot *is* a special.
My mistake, I see what you mean now.

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Old 04/26/07, 2:08 PM   #43
Rius
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
<NI>
Detheroc
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Are Cats the new best-BM pets considering the LB nerf last patch? Or any pet with a Gore ability like a Ravager?
I've been using an Owl for some time now. Screech/Claw instead of Bite/Claw, +7% dps instead of +10%, 0% health adjustment instead of cat's -2%. Apart from the really annoying screeching noise every few seconds, Owls perform pretty well. And the latest rank of Screech is -210 ap to all targets, more than double the previous best rank.

I tamed the red and purple one from Sethekk Halls, and he gets a lot of attention =)

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Old 04/26/07, 2:13 PM   #44
Beerbaron
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Kargath
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
With Rapid Fire, a 2.7 becomes: 2.7/1.2/1.15/1.4= 1.397 sec. That's too fast, unfortunately. Taking steady out may be the best idea, but once arcane/multi are both on cool down there's not much you can do. You may even have to do the unspeakable and use Serpent Sting (ewwwww). Either way you won't get the same amount of damage out of a rapid fire that a MM/SV would get since taking out steady or delaying auto both hurt DPS a lot.
you're missing a lot with that analysis. as important as delayed autoshots is the downtime in your cycle where you are neither casting a special or waiting for the .5 second autoshot tick.

that 1.4 number is a good thing! if it were 1.5 or 1.6 with all those haste effects, then imagine how much time you would spend post-steadyshot, but pre autoshot just waiting around casting nothing. also think about how well imp hawk will fit in since its not as big a buff as rapid fire. and by using arcane/multi replacements during rapid fire, you greatly minimize the effect of the delayed autoshots during rapid fire's duration.

even some of the best MM shot cycles will delay an autoshot by .1 or .2 seconds occasionally, or worse, they will have bigger non-casting downtimes in the auto,steady,auto snippet in their full cycle.

Last edited by Beerbaron : 04/26/07 at 2:24 PM.

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Old 04/26/07, 2:29 PM   #45
boomix
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Death Knight
 
Malfurion
I would go with Ravager pet for Gore and Bite with BM spec. I know they are a bit of glass cannon for a pet but dps is quite a bit higher with them.

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