What are primary stats for BM? I understand that you may want AP instead of Agility and I know you can sacrifice Int gear for other stats. Or is that wrong way of thinking?
In general what is the gear I should consider for effective BM spec stat-wise?
PS.
Removed this question from another hunter thread as it belongs here.
Last night was pessimistic skydive in a foolish narcotic shell
OK! Here it is folks. Web Stats for Hydross kill, Lurker kill, (no pet really), and my 1st solid Vashj attempt in SSC as a BM hunter: (I respecced last night to test)
Sadly, I don't have totals for all night overall damage dealt including trash etc. Let me tell you guys a couple of things from what I have experienced so far from just 1 night of raiding as BM. First of all, holy shit was it fun. It took a lot more micro-management of the pet since I was always concerned that it stayed alive. I notice in WWS that it had a horrible miss rate of about 16% so I pumped in 2 points into Animal Handler which should definitely make a difference in raiding in the future. Our marks hunter, Mr. Archaos, was seriously depressed last night after seeing a BM hunter tear shit up. I can't begin to tell you how surprised I was and other people around me who laughed as I turned big and red only to then send me tells later saying "holy shit man, wtf?" because the meters showed some definite difference. On trash especially I was almost always #1 by quite a bit. This wasn't using flasks or anything.
I did request buffs from the paladins for BOK/BOM on the pet which I'm sure made a big difference. Overall, I am absolutely loving it so far. The pet is basically my DOT which can crit and go off way faster than a lock or sps DOT can. Hopefully the numbers up there shed some light on the difference between MM/BM and please don't take this as a "this is better or worse" post because it isn't. I'm simply someone who has seen a very different way to play the class and am enjoying it quite a bit so far. Ask anyone that knows me and they'll say "Howitzer would never go BM", well, that just changed.
Actually I'd like to thank all of you guys who replied to this thread mostly. The comments and insights here are exactly why I bother coming to this forum in the first place. Cheers.
Heh, I'm glad you enjoyed BM. I've been having a blast with it for the last few weeks; it's leaps and bounds different from 1.0 MM raiding. I wanted to ask, though, how can you get WWS reports to show pet's glancing rates?
Last edited by Rius : 04/27/07 at 11:45 AM.
Reason: accidentally deleted the first half before posting o.O
I'm glad to see your experience was a positive one. These should provide good data points, but I have a couple questions:
1) Can you post the build you used? Seems like BM raid specs are pretty much cookie cutter, but you discussed putting 2 points into animal handler (I have 1 in AH and couldn't find a way to squeeze another in without pulling 1 from SS).
2) Can you discuss the rotation you used? I tried out BM recently using only an auto->steady rotation and noticed a large increase in dps over MM, but I'd like to improve that if possible.
3) For reference, what were your stats while raid buffed?
4) It appears you're using an owl (screech shows up in WWS). Is there a reason NOT to use, say, a cat or WS (who may provide more damage while acting as an effective focus dump)?
For some reason, the EU Armory times out on me every time I try to look at his talent spec. Would someone mind exporting his build to one of the various talent calculators? I'm also in the midst of making the MM->BM switch and I'm still playing with my options.
One of my questions relates to the importance of Mortal Shots for BM hunters. Slotting in a complete tier 2 set (I've only recently dusted off my hunter as I rerolled a shaman for the guild), dropping Mortal Shots is a loss of only about 30 DPS based on Cheeky's spreadsheet. Dropping it would allow taking both Beast Within and both points of Animal Handler (regaining about 10 DPS from a second point) along with the Hawkeye talent, which I've frankly grown used to over my years of MM playing. I'd also then be able to consider dropping Rapid Fire in favor of one of the Slaying talents (about 20 DPS increase for the particular racial class) or Catlike Reflexes.
Edit: Additional question - do we know yet what the glancing blow mechanics are being changed to? And just to confirm, bite/claw are not considered white damage, so can't be glancing blows?
Last edited by Jezele : 04/27/07 at 11:55 AM.
Reason: Glancing Blow question added
Heh, I'm glad you enjoyed BM. I've been having a blast with it for the last few weeks; it's leaps and bounds different from 1.0 MM raiding. I wanted to ask, though, how can you get WWS reports to show pet's glancing rates?
I'm not sure about that, mate. You can login Turalyon horde and talk to Kuya. He is our WWS guy.
I'm glad to see your experience was a positive one. These should provide good data points, but I have a couple questions:
1) Can you post the build you used? Seems like BM raid specs are pretty much cookie cutter, but you discussed putting 2 points into animal handler (I have 1 in AH and couldn't find a way to squeeze another in without pulling 1 from SS).
2) Can you discuss the rotation you used? I tried out BM recently using only an auto->steady rotation and noticed a large increase in dps over MM, but I'd like to improve that if possible.
3) For reference, what were your stats while raid buffed?
4) It appears you're using an owl (screech shows up in WWS). Is there a reason NOT to use, say, a cat or WS (who may provide more damage while acting as an effective focus dump)?
I found that using Multi-Shot on single targets was no longer desirable whatsoever since I wasn't marks. I did, however, use it when bloodlust was up and rapid fire and quick shots procced because holy damn autoshot itself was like a machine gun. So basically I'd squeeze off instant cast shots whenever they were up.
As far as spec, I removed 1 point from Frenzy because with 80% chance it was almost always active. I took the points out of Spirit Bond because it was less than impressive, let me explain...
Over the course of a 10 minute boss fight the spirit bond talent gave my pet roughly 8000 hit points. This is not exactly acceptable or even warrants the spending of 2 points into it. I am almost always grouped with a shadow priest that can heal that amount back to the pet 50x faster and if really necessary I will pull the pet back and mend it or bandage it. I decided instead to put the points into Handler which is basically a 4% boost in damage since it will miss less.
Using the Sunfury Bow I had no problem managing Serpent's Swiftness WITH the Quick Shots procs and weaving Steady / Auto with the occasional Arcane in between. I was not starving for mana so I wasn't too conscious on shot use or mana consumption at all. The one thing I have to get used to is not using multi shot on single targets. (Thats what I get for being MM for forever.) =) Also Effeciency vs Improved Hunter's Mark. I came to the conclusion that the 110 AP for the pet was not as important as it was for me to maintain my mana pool for constant steady shots because of long fights as a raider. Even with a Shadow priest it CAN become taxing on your mana pool eventually. Therefore, I chose to go with 5/5 Effeciency.
Raid buffed stats when I popped a flask, had elixir of major agi, onslaught, ravager dog, bom / bok / motw / etc. I had about 2800 RAP with about 26% crit and hit rating at about 136.
The other thing someone mentioned above was the importance of Mortal Shots vs Hawk Eye. In my opinion, the lack of 6 yards is noticeable, however, I would not even consider ANY build whether it be BM/MM/SURV without the inclusion of Mortal shots at max rank. It is absolutely a must.
Why did you use an Owl? Because I didn't have a cat trained. I had a wolf, owl from Sekketh halls, and a wind serpent. I didn't bring the wind serpent because Hydross is immune to nature damage on the nature phase. I didn't take the wolf because it's DPS isn't as high as the owl. But, I assure you, I now have a Cat. I might even level up a ravager when I have more free time.
OK! Here it is folks. Web Stats for Hydross kill, Lurker kill, (no pet really), and my 1st solid Vashj attempt in SSC as a BM hunter: (I respecced last night to test)
Sadly, I don't have totals for all night overall damage dealt including trash etc. Let me tell you guys a couple of things from what I have experienced so far from just 1 night of raiding as BM. First of all, holy shit was it fun. It took a lot more micro-management of the pet since I was always concerned that it stayed alive. I notice in WWS that it had a horrible miss rate of about 16% so I pumped in 2 points into Animal Handler which should definitely make a difference in raiding in the future. Our marks hunter, Mr. Archaos, was seriously depressed last night after seeing a BM hunter tear shit up. I can't begin to tell you how surprised I was and other people around me who laughed as I turned big and red only to then send me tells later saying "holy shit man, wtf?" because the meters showed some definite difference. On trash especially I was almost always #1 by quite a bit. This wasn't using flasks or anything.
I did request buffs from the paladins for BOK/BOM on the pet which I'm sure made a big difference. Overall, I am absolutely loving it so far. The pet is basically my DOT which can crit and go off way faster than a lock or sps DOT can. Hopefully the numbers up there shed some light on the difference between MM/BM and please don't take this as a "this is better or worse" post because it isn't. I'm simply someone who has seen a very different way to play the class and am enjoying it quite a bit so far. Ask anyone that knows me and they'll say "Howitzer would never go BM", well, that just changed.
Actually I'd like to thank all of you guys who replied to this thread mostly. The comments and insights here are exactly why I bother coming to this forum in the first place. Cheers.
Interesting, but the numbers on the Hydross kill as MM really worry me.
For starters, how do you have more steady shots than auto shots? Also, it only shows a recorded 16 arcane shots and 11 multi shots. Judging from your other posts I think it's safe to assume that your normal cycles are much better than that, so you might want to check to see whether or not your information was recorded correctly for that.
Also, even a MM hunter can have his pet out, so you're only hurting yourself by not having it out when you were MM in that fight.
In Howitzer's defense, thing's were a bit crazy on that Hydross kill. For the past few weeks we had been using the 80 > dead Nature tanking strat, this was our first night that we switched over to the way he is "supposed to be done". I'm sure it took a lot of adjustment by everyone, and with him switching specs, and strats, he may have been trying to watch other things and not give his full attention to his shot rotation, etc.
Auto+steady and the casual arcane shots when moving around and the casual max rank multi-shots to burn your mana when you know that you're not going to run oom.
Interesting, but the numbers on the Hydross kill as MM really worry me.
For starters, how do you have more steady shots than auto shots? Also, it only shows a recorded 16 arcane shots and 11 multi shots. Judging from your other posts I think it's safe to assume that your normal cycles are much better than that, so you might want to check to see whether or not your information was recorded correctly for that.
Also, even a MM hunter can have his pet out, so you're only hurting yourself by not having it out when you were MM in that fight.
I think the MM Hydross isn't as accurate because I was running around keeping NR aura up for the MT. I was also not with an SP that night and couldn't use anything but SS really due to mana use.
I'm actually too interested to test out BM, now. Was just thinking if Wrathtide Longbow is better than Wolfslayer for the good old auto/steady castsequence. Should be 2.22 speed with BM spec and if Lootwalker gun is 2.26 and it's the best" weapon speed I'd imagine Wrathtide performing pretty well.
Then again, fuck it. I have over 10k gold I'll just spec BM and go to spend some time testing dps with both in Blasted Lands. :p
One thing actually, 4 or 5 points in frenzy? Could imagine 4 in next patch with CR but havent found the theorycraft bit myself for pre 2.1 :/
I'm actually too interested to test out BM, now. Was just thinking if Wrathtide Longbow is better than Wolfslayer for the good old auto/steady castsequence. Should be 2.22 speed with BM spec and if Lootwalker gun is 2.26 and it's the best" weapon speed I'd imagine Wrathtide performing pretty well.
Then again, fuck it. I have over 10k gold I'll just spec BM and go to spend some time testing dps with both in Blasted Lands. :p
One thing actually, 4 or 5 points in frenzy? Could imagine 4 in next patch with CR but havent found the theorycraft bit myself for pre 2.1 :/
I copied Polina's spec and changed it a little bit to get improved revive since I found it quite useful. I really believe animal handler is a must esp if you raid often. 4/5 Frenzy worked great for me.
Heh, I'm glad you enjoyed BM. I've been having a blast with it for the last few weeks; it's leaps and bounds different from 1.0 MM raiding. I wanted to ask, though, how can you get WWS reports to show pet's glancing rates?
WWS has gone through a few updates to include pet damage and respective glancing rates.
Make sure to assign each hunter pet an owner. I usually "auto update" actors and manually look to see if there are any new pets or raid members that are not in my table. WWS is usually pretty good at catching the pet's owner, but if not you can manually select it from the drop down menu.
I copied Polina's spec and changed it a little bit to get improved revive since I found it quite useful. I really believe animal handler is a must esp if you raid often. 4/5 Frenzy worked great for me.
Good call on 4/5 Frenzy. I think I'll change that in my build as well. Which I guess would make it exactly the same as your build. =P
I'm glad you finally pulled the trigger and tried out BM. I was shocked when I first raided with it a week ago as well, and I'm really enjoying it. Your reactions (and those of your guildies) in the thread towards the top of page 4 are very similar to mine. I have the Mage and 'lock class leaders saying "nerf BM" in officer chat all the time now!
Edit - Our builds won't be the same since I have 5/5 Imp Mark. I like this for my pet of course, but the reason I take it is for the raid. If I can give 110 more AP to 5 or so melee DPSers, it's worth it to drink another mana pot during a boss fight.
If you are raiding there is very little reason for going with Armor over improved revive.
Imp revive is extremely handy when your pet dies, and with the changed to cleave in 2.1 the armor will really only benefit you if you are soloing/5mans.
More health, however, will definitely help you out more in raiding.
Spirit bond I do like and I wish I could fit it in when I spec BM. My guild has one semi-active shadow priest and thats it. When he's on he is with mages, not hunters.
But 8k over 10 minutes is really pretty piss poor =(
I found that using Multi-Shot on single targets was no longer desirable whatsoever since I wasn't marks. I did, however, use it when bloodlust was up and rapid fire and quick shots procced because holy damn autoshot itself was like a machine gun. So basically I'd squeeze off instant cast shots whenever they were up.
I just wanted to clarify this part a little bit. Are you saying when you get bloodlust/rapid fire/quickshots stacked you STOP casting steady shot and just cast auto/arcane/ms, or you replace your steadies with arcanes and MS when they come off of CD? What I've been doing so far when I get my attack speed down to ~1.0 with stacked haste is just spam the everloving hell out of my steady key and try to keep up with my autos. Usually I clip a few, but I also fit a lot of steadies in, too.
I just wanted to clarify this part a little bit. Are you saying when you get bloodlust/rapid fire/quickshots stacked you STOP casting steady shot and just cast auto/arcane/ms, or you replace your steadies with arcanes and MS when they come off of CD? What I've been doing so far when I get my attack speed down to ~1.0 with stacked haste is just spam the everloving hell out of my steady key and try to keep up with my autos. Usually I clip a few, but I also fit a lot of steadies in, too.
I just stopped casting steady because I was clipping Autoshots left and right. So in its place I was using arcanes and multis instead until the haste effects became manageable again for proper rotations.
So, what kind of pet do you guys think is best for raiding as a BM hunter? Please also say why you think it is the best (skills/stat modifiers/etc.)
Also, will you be putting points in (the new 2.1) imp mend pet?
I still haven't seen anything that has really convinced me BM is so great, though I'm not foolish enough to doubt its potential. I think it also has a lot to do with the player and how they want to play it. I don't imagine BM being nearly as strong as Marks in 5v5, but it'd be amazing in 2v2 (which is fun but not where you really go after your points). I've also always been a stickler for focusing on myself and watching my 3 bars to perfect my rotation/cycle.
I think what is nice, is Blizz is really trying to make all three trees viable in raiding situations. There will be one that stands out as the strongest, but all 3 will be viable. The only thing that sucks is that our itemization is by no means geared towards allowing the three different specs (ie not strong swing towards int, crit rating, or agi). It's starting to look more and more like those "druid" leather pieces with 15 of every single stat, then ap and +spell dmg. They need to give us options according to our spec.
I did make a post similar to what you're saying in regards to different types of tiered sets for hunters since the 3 trees require different types of stat allocations. I put the post in the "Top questions and concerns on 2.1 PTR" thread. (Who knows if the devs even care to read it?)
Anyways, you're very right in that it doesn't matter what damn spec you are as long as you really understand your class, come prepared, and know how to play well. If you can do all that any way you spec will shine. This thread was specifically aimed at 25 man raiding as a BM spec which isn't really discussed much. You'll see BM hunters rant and rave all over the place on "I'm #1 dps", then you see they run 5 mans and their guild is stuck on Curator... That isn't a very credible source of information.
I'll keep posting my WWS results in the coming weeks to give some comparisons on DPS over boss fights and trash and let people come up to their own conclusions. I'm not going to shove anything down anyone's throat, (unless its Bazz's *wink*).