Here are the stats from last nights HKM/Gruul kill and first night of attempts on Mag. I am spec'd 0/31/30. I hope to post soon a comparison night of raiding where I am BM to show how BM works at my gear level (below howitzer's by a significant amount). As you can see I was #2 behind a mage, maybe BM will make me #1?
Great thread so far. I was BM for the first part of TBC and a few runs into Kara. Once I moved to Gruuls and Heroics, I went for MM with enough in survival for imp trap durations. This is making me itchy to go back and work on BM though.
First thing I'd like to do though, is run some of my own practice tests on Dr. Boom so I can solidify my shot rotation now as it stands. That leads me to the big question. What mod should I be using to track my dps? My hits vs misses, % of actual crit and all that? I have SW Stats for the raid, but am looking for something that will focus on my own personal stats. And will it track the 'dps' I see hunters talking about where they say 'I pushed 800 dps on <whatever>'? (And what is that dps anyway? I assume its actual dps, including crits, and haste effects and the like, and not just the paperdoll assumed dps)
Great thread so far. I was BM for the first part of TBC and a few runs into Kara. Once I moved to Gruuls and Heroics, I went for MM with enough in survival for imp trap durations. This is making me itchy to go back and work on BM though.
First thing I'd like to do though, is run some of my own practice tests on Dr. Boom so I can solidify my shot rotation now as it stands. That leads me to the big question. What mod should I be using to track my dps? My hits vs misses, % of actual crit and all that? I have SW Stats for the raid, but am looking for something that will focus on my own personal stats. And will it track the 'dps' I see hunters talking about where they say 'I pushed 800 dps on <whatever>'? (And what is that dps anyway? I assume its actual dps, including crits, and haste effects and the like, and not just the paperdoll assumed dps)
I'd get an autoshot cast bar mod and use FuBar_DPS to show your DPS during fights as well. SW Stats can show you a breakdown of your shot rotations as you do them and you can even start up your own WWS combat log each time to show you a true breakdown of absolutely everything everyone does in a raid. Its a very nice tool to keep helping you improve yourself.
As far as shot rotations go, its really something that I believe shouldn't be set in stone. Situations in fights change dynamically all the time and you have to fluidly adapt your shot choices on the fly without even thinking to max your dps. If you're constantly counting in your head: "ok now I need to cast this after 3 of these", you're already in the hole imo.
As far as shot rotations go, its really something that I believe shouldn't be set in stone. Situations in fights change dynamically all the time and you have to fluidly adapt your shot choices on the fly without even thinking to max your dps. If you're constantly counting in your head: "ok now I need to cast this after 3 of these", you're already in the hole imo.
IMO this is the big problem with hunters in TBC. I have been trying to explain this to the other hunters in my guild but they want a set rotation that they can always follow. This ideology sets apart mediocre hunters and great hunters (at least imo.)
My dps in raids has been alright so far, but I am not convinced I've mastered things since the mechanic change and TBC. I want to do better than I am. My biggest problem is that I'm new to these forums and I was fed hunter forums garbage for a while. So the Dr.Boom test is just so I can practice on the different things I've read about here.
Currently, I use multi, arcane, steady, with auto's between, and the priority going to multi and arcane when they are up. Last night, Mmm. Had feral druid and shadow priest in my group for Gruuls and that made me so happy. (And the pants dropped for me yay!) But yeah, I wanna see what I'm doing and see if I'm doing the right thing. :p
IMO this is the big problem with hunters in TBC. I have been trying to explain this to the other hunters in my guild but they want a set rotation that they can always follow. This ideology sets apart mediocre hunters and great hunters (at least imo.)
Completely agreed. People are too used to the aimed shot rotations of old, and just haven't learned to adjust. Being a good hunter now requires a lot of intuition and just the ability to judge the situation for yourself, and understand how to best time your shots.
I used 3 bars. My autoshot cast bar (Big Trouble = best in the world), ECB with a lag meter to gauge my steadys, and then of course Kharthurs to track my stings (scorpid on boss fights) and cooldowns. That's me though, I'm very technical. Another guild member who is an excellent hunter judges his shots based on the sound of his bow. He listens and recognizes the audio queues and uses that to judge when to shoot his next shot. I can do the the same just by watching my bars or watching the animation of the bow.
All that basically means is that to be a good hunter now, you have to learn your hunter. Any set rotation or whatever will just screw you up. And for those hunters using /castsequence macros, shame. They're a crutch that hold people back and in all honesty do no allow for your maximum potential because they lack the judgment that we often have to use in timing our shots.
Got a bit higher crit rate on the go with Wrathtide and procs are fairly even. One thing to note was that Wrathtide obviously used a lot less mana which is pretty good. Dunno which one I'd use in raids though..
Think I had a little bit higher average latency on the test with Wrathide (read: 50 -> 75 maybe)
Dunno, maybe Sunfury would be the way to go because of the weapon dps and higher stats if it ever drops.
Still not sure whether to go survival or BM though, roughly the same dps on both after you take in account the glancing blows and misses. BM might be a tiny bit more dps but pet can always die etc, so its hard choice.
I might just try both after the patch and see which one I enjoy more and then make my choice.
Completely agreed. People are too used to the aimed shot rotations of old, and just haven't learned to adjust. Being a good hunter now requires a lot of intuition and just the ability to judge the situation for yourself, and understand how to best time your shots.
I used 3 bars. My autoshot cast bar (Big Trouble = best in the world), ECB with a lag meter to gauge my steadys, and then of course Kharthurs to track my stings (scorpid on boss fights) and cooldowns. That's me though, I'm very technical. Another guild member who is an excellent hunter judges his shots based on the sound of his bow. He listens and recognizes the audio queues and uses that to judge when to shoot his next shot. I can do the the same just by watching my bars or watching the animation of the bow.
All that basically means is that to be a good hunter now, you have to learn your hunter. Any set rotation or whatever will just screw you up. And for those hunters using /castsequence macros, shame. They're a crutch that hold people back and in all honesty do no allow for your maximum potential because they lack the judgment that we often have to use in timing our shots.
Point taken. But it leaves me a little confused also. If you dont have some kind of rotation or plan, dps plunges, but if you stick to it too rigidly, dps also plunges. Obviously, hunters need to do more than just afk-autoshoot (and you can tell them easily when you look at meters) so, my next question is, what tips can you offer to figure it all out? When you speak of learning to best time your shots, and which ones, what factors go into making that decision?
And I'm pretty sure I base my shot timing off my bow sound, like your friend, because if my sound glitches, I completely freak out because I feel like I am driving without all four wheels.
Point taken. But it leaves me a little confused also. If you dont have some kind of rotation or plan, dps plunges, but if you stick to it too rigidly, dps also plunges. Obviously, hunters need to do more than just afk-autoshoot (and you can tell them easily when you look at meters) so, my next question is, what tips can you offer to figure it all out? When you speak of learning to best time your shots, and which ones, what factors go into making that decision?
And I'm pretty sure I base my shot timing off my bow sound, like your friend, because if my sound glitches, I completely freak out because I feel like I am driving without all four wheels.
Yeah, obviously you have to have some time of shot plan. My auto shot timer has tenths of seconds on the timer, but after a while, you more learn to judge your shots by just the appearance of the cast bar and don't really have to look at your actual time on the shot.
I always open with a multi, arcane, auto, steady. After that, it's just fluid. Steady if you're at the beginning of a bar with no instant up. If you have a 1 sec cooldown on an instant, go ahead and try to string a steady. The number one thing I have against /castsequence macros besides the fact that they're lazy is that they will not fire a steady no matter what if it will interfere with your next auto. If I've got 1.3 seconds before my next auto shot, I don't mind losing .2 seconds to string in an steady for an extra 650 or so dmg.
Multi shot always takes precedence in my cycles because it is the strongest shot. It's also best to try and fit both your instants in between the same auto shot if you can (this obviously won't happen every time, but when the timing is right, do it). One of the biggest things is considering sever lag for your steady shots. You actually should start casting your steady about .2 o.3 seconds before your auto shot fires (depending on your latency) to maximize your efficiency. As I said, I'm sure you could map out all my shots and see the pattern, but I don't go by that. Over time, you just develop your own cycles and it feels natural.
I mentioned Big Trouble earlier also. Here is a link to it:
Great thread, inspiring stuff and real food for thought. I am very tempted to try a BM build out but I still dont have a handle on gear stat priority. If someone could have a look at my profile and give me pointer or two where slots can be improved that would be great.
I am currently 0/31/30 with 750 odd agi, 1977 RAP and 29.xx% crit. last Gruul kill the WWS report had me at 748 DPS without a flask but with Agi/Fel Str and a major mageblood. Compared to other DPS classes in my guild I hold my own and earn my slot, but if there is a better DPS option out there I am willing to give it a try.
Great thread, inspiring stuff and real food for thought. I am very tempted to try a BM build out but I still dont have a handle on gear stat priority. If someone could have a look at my profile and give me pointer or two where slots can be improved that would be great.
I am currently 0/31/30 with 750 odd agi, 1977 RAP and 29.xx% crit. last Gruul kill the WWS report had me at 748 DPS without a flask but with Agi/Fel Str and a major mageblood. Compared to other DPS classes in my guild I hold my own and earn my slot, but if there is a better DPS option out there I am willing to give it a try.
What can i say Howitzer has inspired me.
Taz
Right on dude! I've always been a firm believer in challenging yourself in every aspect of an MMO since UO in 1997. No different here, really. I'm really liking this "newbwithin" spec so far and I'll come back with more WWS results next week. Either way, its a very new spin on raiding as a hunter and quite a welcome change. One can only hope it gets that much better come patch day.
Does anyone know which is better for melee, 125 AP or 3% damage. Say you had 2 *gasp* BM hunters in a raid. You could put one with the casters and one with the melee. Would the melee group benefit more from TSA or FI?
Well, FI maybe highest if your dpsers are doing close to 1000 dps but EW is still the highest total dps.
I think that's highly dependent on raid composition. If you're only running 1 heavy melee group EW and TSA are both have reduced usefulness. The biggest advantage EW has over FI is that it's a raid-wide buff, so it helps everyone without respect to group position. However, it's a bit of an oversimplification to simply say EW is always better than FI is always better than TSA.
I also want to put up my results from a swap to BM. I don't have a direct comparison from my time as MM for the same fight, but I'll provide them for comparison (if anyone cares). Unfortunately my guild is still clearing Karazhan and Gruul for gear, although hopefully we'll attempt and down Magtheridon soon. Consequently I don't have any reports from "real" 25 man content, but I'll through my anecdotal evidence into the BM pile.
Been reading up on going BM, since i'm tired of chugging 20g worth of pots on raid bosses to keep up my 650dps MM spec. Couple things from this thread are bugging me tho.
1. According to the rogues in my guild, their white damage is 50% of their total damage. TSA = 125AP = 8.9dps. Double that to account for specials, and you get ~18dps for rogues from TSA. So at 600dps and less, 125AP > 3% damage increase, assuming FI is always up. Most rogues can get above that easily, so in general FI > TSA.
2. Unless you are using a very fast weapon, and therefore have a smaller average weapon damage, there is no reason to not use multi-shot to maxamize dps when BM spec. SS is a lot more mana efficient, but you can compensate for that by using mana pots, Fel mana pots, or bugging your raid leader until you get a shadow priest in your group.
I know it's rediculously long now, but anyone who is serious about hunter dps should read the Hunter Mechanics -- v2.0 thread, found here Hunter Mechanics -- v2.0/TBC.
Because of the global cooldown multi-shot is really not the effort especially without efficiency. Rather go to group with shaman, warrior and druid than shadowpriest and do that 10-15 dps more by weaving multi as BM.
My multi-shot does 298.9 more damage then a steady shot. That's ~200dps more by using that one multi shot over a steady shot. Seems worth the mana, even if you don't have a shadow priest in your group feeding you mana. At worst you can use multi at the begining of the fight and if you end up getting low, like under 20% mana, you can remove it from your rotation and conserve mana.
Also, being in a group with a feral druid is highly unlikely for any boss. Most guilds run 1 feral druid in raids for tanking purposes, and if he is tanking, he's not going to be in the dps group with a warrior rogue hunter and shaman. There is no reason why you can't be in a SP group with a shaman as well, since you increase the damage of all your party members which in the case of the SP results in more mana for the group as a whole. The only other class that buffs SP dps by being in the same group is a caster with Atiesh.
5% crit from LotP is ~40dps (assuming you have mortal shots). A SP doing 900dps, which is not unreasonable for a good player with good gear, will return to each party member 225mp5. That's equivilent to 157dps if you use all of that mana during the fight, which is a little tough to do. Add to that mana returned the heals via Vampiric Embrace, which for a 900dps SP would be 1125hp5. A BM pet should have around 7-9k HP, so a SP could heal your pet from the brink of death to full life in ~30-45sec. SP is the way to go.
My multi-shot does 298.9 more damage then a steady shot. That's ~200dps more by using that one multi shot over a steady shot. Seems worth the mana, even if you don't have a shadow priest in your group feeding you mana. At worst you can use multi at the begining of the fight and if you end up getting low, like under 20% mana, you can remove it from your rotation and conserve mana.
Also, being in a group with a feral druid is highly unlikely for any boss. Most guilds run 1 feral druid in raids for tanking purposes, and if he is tanking, he's not going to be in the dps group with a warrior rogue hunter and shaman. There is no reason why you can't be in a SP group with a shaman as well, since you increase the damage of all your party members which in the case of the SP results in more mana for the group as a whole. The only other class that buffs SP dps by being in the same group is a caster with Atiesh.
5% crit from LotP is ~40dps (assuming you have mortal shots). A SP doing 900dps, which is not unreasonable for a good player with good gear, will return to each party member 225mp5. That's equivilent to 157dps if you use all of that mana during the fight, which is a little tough to do. Add to that mana returned the heals via Vampiric Embrace, which for a 900dps SP would be 1125hp5. A BM pet should have around 7-9k HP, so a SP could heal your pet from the brink of death to full life in ~30-45sec. SP is the way to go.
Cheers
Rudolph~
I totally agree with Gold here. The SP is pure MONEY for a BM hunter. I don't have to worry about healing my pet, I don't have to worry about my mana, either. Its straight up more DPS over a long fight because I can go all out non stop.
So, after all this talk I want to try BM for raiding (I leveled BM and did a ton of 5 mans that way.) Will I be disappointed if I try it before 2.1? Are the changes in 2.1 going to make that much of a difference in the dps (other than keeping my pet alive.)
BTW Goldengiff: My guild loves feral tanks so on fights they are not needed they go kitty and are in melee groups. If I get lucky I am grouped with them or a s-priest (if not then I am with 3 holy priest and a pally.) But, it is not uncommon (at least for my guild, which I like to think of normal(ish)) to be with a feral druid.
Yet another aside, how ofter do you other hunters get to be with a s-priest? 50%? 75% of the time? How often are you with at least one other player that helps your dps (shaman with mana totem and GoA, feral druid or s-priest)? I just want to know how much I should be bugging my raid leader. =p
Just shot about 100 times with steady and auto on rats and the difference was 175. Using Wrathtide and the 37 dps arrows. Still not worth the lost time on steady shot cast time or mana cost.
@Bigblue: You're lucky man. Our guild only has one feral druid worth mentioning and he's out MT so he's always in the "MT group". So, no dps from him. If we had another good feral druid then we might give him to melee, but we only ever run 3 rogues max, only have 2 hunters, and only 2 serious dps warriors (arena MS spec doesn't count). An ideal group for a BM hunter would be hunter, feral druid, MM hunter, SP, and shaman, but that would never happen :P
@osse: it deffinatly depends on the weapon you use. Sunfury bow is 2.9, wrathtide is 3.0, both are better for using multi-shot. What you aren't factoring in is the fact that altho haste will make the cast time of Steady less then 1.5sec, nothing except Heroism will lower your GCD. So you are still only shooting 1 Steady every 1.5sec. Haste doesn't increase your Steady DPS, unless it's counteracting latency issues, which everyone has to some extent. The ONLY reason you would use steady over multi is if you have a fast enough bow that it actually does less damage then steady or if you are having mana issues.
04/27/07, 2:52 PM
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