I would suspect that bow is there for the same reason Illidan drops a staff with 70 stamina on it. PVP. A hunter with that bow using that as well as Viper sting will be a major pain in the ass in arenas.
I think the Illidan bow is for levelling to 80? Yes I'm half-joking (only half...), but I can't see any other reason for them to rehash an equip bonus from level 60 craftable gloves. Poor decision or laziness on the part of the devs. Making my DPS less expensive is nice, but once you kill the final boss of the game, the thing that brings you back to farm them is increasing your character's power, not saving a pot over the course of an encounter. Or maybe they really are gearing you up for levelling again...I know my Black Grasps were money levelling past 60... =/
Has there been any information about the bow that showed up on mmo-champion that looks like T5? I haven't really been following, but the lack of information about it and the confirmation of bows from Illidan and Archimonde suggests to me that bow was just a figment of someone's imagination. And are there no guns past Al'ar? That just seems so wrong...
The 't5' bow is the one from Archimonde, as far as I know. It's not a bad bow per se, but allocating so much item budget to stam just screams poor design. It's not better than the gladiator ranged weapon for arena and there aren't really encounters in PVE that justify spending that much ilevel on stam.
How was it determined pets can't be the initial target of cave-in? There has been some questions on the Blizzard Hunter forums about this lately. Apparently at least a few raid leaders are forbidding pet use on Gruul because they believe it increases cave-in frequency on the tank and melee folks.
I'm considering putting my pet off in a corner on Stay this week to see if it gets debuffed. Would prefer not to repeat this test if it has been done. Or perhaps the combat log names the initial target? Unfortunately I don't have a log handy to check.
Honestly, I haven't even thought about this in months. It's so well established that pets cannot be targeted by cave-in that I can't remember how it was tested (or who tested it). I realize this is a a poor argument and an utter lack of documentation, but I don't think anyone on these boards has questioned this in ages. I guess it just goes to show how out of the loop the official boards are.
That notwithstanding, the best way I can think of to confirm this would be to get a mod (bigwigs or deadly boss mods would suffice) that announces who the cave-in target is. You will never see a pet targeted by cave-in. Not on Gruul, not by debris on Mag, never. I haven't seen it since 2.1, and I feel that this is pretty well established. However, if you feel the need to test it for yourself, I would recommend that methodology.
The 't5' bow is the one from Archimonde, as far as I know. It's not a bad bow per se, but allocating so much item budget to stam just screams poor design. It's not better than the gladiator ranged weapon for arena and there aren't really encounters in PVE that justify spending that much ilevel on stam.
The pic in Wowhead has an entirely different model for the Archimonde bow. Perhaps they intended to make the Archimonde bow look like T5 and then scrapped the idea and used the model that wowhead shows.
You will never see a pet targeted by cave-in. Not on Gruul, not by debris on Mag, never. I haven't seen it since 2.1, and I feel that this is pretty well established. However, if you feel the need to test it for yourself, I would recommend that methodology.
I know that Nightbane's Rain of Bones would frequently target my pet pre-2.1. Has this changed?
For the taming a low level scorpid to get your level 70 with Rank 4 Poison... im having some issues with the instructions given...
if anyone cares to type out a more detailed instruction on how this bug is acheived i would be ever so grateful.
I am not going to dispute the proof that others have posted on the damage potential of the scorpid. I have one myself and have noticed big ticks of 750-800 etc. However, there are a couple of things you should consider when deciding whether or not to stick with a scorpid or a cat/ravager instead... The scorpid needs 5 stacks for max rank, a cat/ravager can burst their damage with bite/claw right off the bat. Scorpids can't dash/dive and get to the mob to dps....slower. Cats/ravagers are much better on trash mobs that don't last as long and in my opinion, are better pets for BM "overall".
This bug you're talking about, isn't really a bug. You can easily achieve this with rank5 poison its just a little harder to keep applied because of the 8 second timer. Keeping claw active while you're keeping your poison up can drain your focus for re-applying so I'd suggest turning it off if you're on a boss. You just pop TBW and trinkets and with that buff you apply the 1st poison, all others after that stack damage high up to the 5th stack, (this has been said several pages back).
This is tonight's WWS DPS Logs with BM spec using a CAT. You can see that there's no shortage of DPS done when not using a scorpid.
All I'm trying to say is: you don't need to jump on the bandwagon because everyone else is talking about it. Its more important that you know how and when to use your pet and play your character in the encounters you face.
I gave scorpid a try like a month ago but just didnt like it and switched back to ravager. It was fun for a few nights on some bosses but for some.. total gash.
Rarely get a feral druid nowadays as our bear is on a vacation or something so have to roll with SP and x number of hunters in the group, usually two in total. :/
Nice Voidreaver log Howitzer.
Our shamans and shadowpriests kill my pet always so I never get to use t5 set bonus. :|
I wish I could look as good as you with 1200dps
In my old guild I was always "way" top of the charts with over 1000-1200 dps, but the new one "sadly" attracted the best casters of the server and our crazy warlocks keep up 1500-1800dps on some fights like hydross, morogrim or astromancer. I never knew how powerful warlocks really are before I saw these guys...
Edit: nice Morogrim dps, Osse, anything special done?
Cant really imagine taking a scorpid over a cat/ravager. As nice as it might be for say morogrim or mag, i still feel theres enough bosses and extraneous situations which would completely dampen its effect. I know personally my pet does die occasionally on mag, or i am forced to pull it back out of a fire ect. This would severely hinder the stacking would it not? Same with gruul, what happens when a few bad caveins on the melee force you to pull your pet back and you dont have TBW + trinkets to get that huge stack back up. Then theres bosses like hydross and lurker where it would be completely useless. Not to mention my addiction to dash which i consider completely necessary even in pve (situations like dashing your pet from scalding water onto lurker and having it at 400 as i had happen today).
I guess i just feel that id rather go with the all round dps of a cat/ravager and not have some one-trick pony that might take a nose dive. However if i was learning a fight like morogrim and was spending an entire night on it i would consider a scorpid because that particular fight (and obviously a minority of all fights) would play to it's strengths.
Cant really imagine taking a scorpid over a cat/ravager. As nice as it might be for say morogrim or mag, i still feel theres enough bosses and extraneous situations which would completely dampen its effect. I know personally my pet does die occasionally on mag, or i am forced to pull it back out of a fire ect. This would severely hinder the stacking would it not? Same with gruul, what happens when a few bad caveins on the melee force you to pull your pet back and you dont have TBW + trinkets to get that huge stack back up. Then theres bosses like hydross and lurker where it would be completely useless. Not to mention my addiction to dash which i consider completely necessary even in pve (situations like dashing your pet from scalding water onto lurker and having it at 400 as i had happen today).
I guess i just feel that id rather go with the all round dps of a cat/ravager and not have some one-trick pony that might take a nose dive. However if i was learning a fight like morogrim and was spending an entire night on it i would consider a scorpid because that particular fight (and obviously a minority of all fights) would play to it's strengths.
You can easily reposition a pet in a fight, so that's not really an issue. And if you have a SP, throw a mend on the pet and he can easily live through conflag on mag and cave ins until a certain number of growths.
Yall were talking about testing cave ins targeting pets also. When I was marks, I'd keep my pet on stay near the entrance so I could get his focused fire buff, but he died way too quickly attacking. He never got hit by cave in, over 3 or 4 weeks of attempts/kills. I think that's pretty solid enough evidence (this was a while back though and I wasn't actually running a test at the time, so I don't have any documentation on this).
As for the scorpid, it's obviously not the ideal pet for many fights. When its poison cannot be used effectively, it's actually a very bad pet, but when you can stack the poison and sustain it the entire fight, it has the highest dps potential without a doubt.
I really like the dynamic to hunter pets the recent "Scorpid Bandwagon" has provided. It's no longer a simple decision to bring "X" pet because he brings the most damage, end of story. Howitzer is making a very strong point, scorpid is not the be all end all pet just because of the recent attention.
For SSC the scorpid seems to be the clear cut winner for DPS. Lurker/Tidewalker/Fathom Lord all give him enough time to get stacks rolling to outweigh the dmg provided by a cat/ravager. TK I bring a cat because of the mobile fights and immunities from Void Reaver.
Another thing I haven't seen mentioned (but might have missed in recent pages) is the synergy of dual scorpids in a raid. The scorpid stacks work exactly like Old mage ignite ticks pre BC. The hunter who applies the first stack will receive all the damage and all subsequent damage after that. The second hunters applications will still refresh the stack but all damage still goes to the first hunter. I raid with another BM hunter who also uses a scorpid. We're able to keep claw active and the stacks up because of the synergy between the two. Sure it is affecting one hunters overall damage but increasing the damage between the two hunters overall.
Overall I love the cat. The look and feel, ability to dash all provide for a more mobile pet that is amazing on trash. But having the option for the scorpid and an actual use for more than one pet is a great dynamic right now. Here's to hoping blizz doesnt nerf it to the ground.
I wish I could look as good as you with 1200dps
In my old guild I was always "way" top of the charts with over 1000-1200 dps, but the new one "sadly" attracted the best casters of the server and our crazy warlocks keep up 1500-1800dps on some fights like hydross, morogrim or astromancer. I never knew how powerful warlocks really are before I saw these guys...
Edit: nice Morogrim dps, Osse, anything special done?
Breakerone, all the fights you just mentioned where warlocks are keeping up 1500+ DPS are because they're AOE fights. I'd be surprised if they were doing any less than that. While having to raid without a shadow priest can be painful, it doesn't mean that you can't top the meters without one. It just means it will be more expensive for you to produce the same results. Superior mana oils, mp/5 elixir, and liberal use of Fel Mana potions will be required to replace the benefit of a shadow priest. My suggestion is if you can't get an SP, ask to be with the feral druid. =p
Another thing I haven't seen mentioned (but might have missed in recent pages) is the synergy of dual scorpids in a raid. The scorpid stacks work exactly like Old mage ignite ticks pre BC. The hunter who applies the first stack will receive all the damage and all subsequent damage after that. The second hunters applications will still refresh the stack but all damage still goes to the first hunter. I raid with another BM hunter who also uses a scorpid. We're able to keep claw active and the stacks up because of the synergy between the two. Sure it is affecting one hunters overall damage but increasing the damage between the two hunters overall.
It's nice to have claw up, but not worth it imo. After seeing my scorpid perform and the dmg a BM hunter can put out, both the other hunters in my guild went BM. I'm running with rank 4 poison, one has rank 5, and one rank 3. The difference actually averages out to be very little between the actual poison they deal, and overall it's a lot more dmg than just renewing one poison tick and keeping up claw.
I'm still sort of boggled at the conclusion that Cats/Ravagers are better than Windserpents. Is there any reason? Maybe early on, but with higher crit levels, GFtT + Lightning Breath is massive damage, compared to claw/gore + bite.
I leveled a Ravager from 63 to test this all out with my own gear, and was surprised by the results honestly, after reading all the people here that use a Cat/Ravager. I'd really like to see some logs of you guys testing out a Windserpent with your gear.
Agreed, whenever possible I take the group with our 1 enh shammy (only shammy) a feral druid, a warrior and then usually another melee, or one with a shadow priest. The former is more to my liking, as the shadow priests for MOST fights only decrease expenditure of potions, However some fights i find it essential (ones like lurker where the OP boiling water will take your pet down at 750dps).
Originally Posted by Bhoris
It's nice to have claw up, but not worth it imo. After seeing my scorpid perform and the dmg a BM hunter can put out, both the other hunters in my guild went BM. I'm running with rank 4 poison, one has rank 5, and one rank 3. The difference actually averages out to be very little between the actual poison they deal, and overall it's a lot more dmg than just renewing one poison tick and keeping up claw.
Without a doubt Bhoris, BM is so far beyond marks for pure maxing dps that its borderline rediculous. And I must also admit i've never really tried the scorpid tactic with anything other than a rank5. While the impressive ticks are ... impressive, at rank5 with 2 points in Animal handler i still found i couldn't reliably keep my original poison tick (the one that...pwns) for longer than 25 or so seconds. And once you lose that initial trinket+ tbw bonus, your left with the option of a poison ticking at 50% of what it should be or waiting for the CD's to come back up and then pulling your pet away to wipe off the debuff and starting it again.
I should test out a rank4 poison next morogrim or one of the other fights it should have an advantage on, but i still feel that for the benefit it might give on certain fights, any fight where theres multi-targeting, bosses changing or sufficient aoe to cause you to have to move your pet away from melee ranged aoe that the scorpid will ultimately come across as lower overall dmg. I hope theres another hunter with a wide range of encounters and the time to spare to test out a scorpid because if it truly is that much better i would love to use one. I guess what im looking for is not in fact a strict comparison of a ravager hitting whatever vs a scorpid hitting the same target to find out which does more, but a more practical view of how often you can fully utilise the scorpid in that way.
It's nice to have claw up, but not worth it imo. After seeing my scorpid perform and the dmg a BM hunter can put out, both the other hunters in my guild went BM. I'm running with rank 4 poison, one has rank 5, and one rank 3. The difference actually averages out to be very little between the actual poison they deal, and overall it's a lot more dmg than just renewing one poison tick and keeping up claw.
Ahhh thanks for this Bhoris. We meant to test if rank 4/5 carried different stacks but never got around to it. I'll spec rank 5 and drop claw definitely.
I'm still sort of boggled at the conclusion that Cats/Ravagers are better than Windserpents. Is there any reason? Maybe early on, but with higher crit levels, GFtT + Lightning Breath is massive damage, compared to claw/gore + bite.
I recently dumped my wind serp for a scorpid. With the nerf to LB damage and the constant range dancing it was time to let him go. Having your pet out of melee range when you want to KC and the time it takes him to go in and out to cast LB is costing DPS. Since the nerf the damage between claw and LB isn't that far off.
I'm still sort of boggled at the conclusion that Cats/Ravagers are better than Windserpents. Is there any reason? Maybe early on, but with higher crit levels, GFtT + Lightning Breath is massive damage, compared to claw/gore + bite.
I'd like to echo this question. Right now I bring a serpent to the entirety of SSC/TK and I'm not sure how a Cat or Ravager could really compete. By macro'ing Lightning Breath as opposed to autocasting I can avoid the majority (though not all) of the AI and range issues. Does +3% white damage on a Cat/Ravager really make up for an inferior focus dump?
I'd like to echo this question. Right now I bring a serpent to the entirety of SSC/TK and I'm not sure how a Cat or Ravager could really compete. By macro'ing Lightning Breath as opposed to autocasting I can avoid the majority (though not all) of the AI and range issues. Does +3% white damage on a Cat/Ravager really make up for an inferior focus dump?
I don't think the white damage is the comparison here, really. But, I do think that a combination of Claw and Bite is equal to lightning breath not to mention that LB isn't proccing frenzy or FI.......but claw and bite most definitely do. I wouldn't use a wind serpent for that fact alone.
Looking through my wws logs, it's really hard to compare two pets from fight to fight, just because things are so different each time, like buffs and group makeup, and timings and other things.. Perhaps I had a bad night or two with my Ravager, I'll try him out again on Gruul and try and mirror an existing wws log of my windserpent for comparison.
Yall were talking about testing cave ins targeting pets also. When I was marks, I'd keep my pet on stay near the entrance so I could get his focused fire buff, but he died way too quickly attacking. He never got hit by cave in, over 3 or 4 weeks of attempts/kills. I think that's pretty solid enough evidence (this was a while back though and I wasn't actually running a test at the time, so I don't have any documentation on this).
Good enough for me, thanks.
A previous poster mentioned being able to tell at whom the cave in was targeted with Bigwigs, etc. I gather this either means the combat log will show initial target or Gruul momentarily retargets. Plan to keep on eye out this weekend to see which, just for curiosity's sake.
I've been skipping the use of a boss mod myself because the /rsay prompts have been sufficient and Bigwigs' default setup is extremely spammy on my UI. May have to spend some time configuring it or finding something more conservative.
As for the scorpid, it's obviously not the ideal pet for many fights. When its poison cannot be used effectively, it's actually a very bad pet, but when you can stack the poison and sustain it the entire fight, it has the highest dps potential without a doubt.
I heard a rumor that the poison tick has been fixed to dynamically shift with the pet's current spellpower/wrath status. Not willing to spend the gold respecing from Survival right now to check, so does anyone know?
I wonder if Scorpids will remain popular once this undoubtedly unintended feature is removed. I hope they will at least remain a decent option. More interesting choices with pets is a good thing. Now if they'll just add something for my white Tallstrider....
If Scorpid Poison is an unintended feature, would you say the same for a Shaman that pops a big spell trinket to prebuff Earth Shield, and then swaps to more PvP oriented trinket right before the arena starts? Moreover, I think that HoTs and DoTs work similarly - if you cast them with x spelldamage and a spell buff fades, the HoT / DoT continues to tick for the same damage as the initial application. It seems to me that the Poison mechanic is completely intended. The fact that Poison scales at all with spelldamage, however, may be unintended.
And no, the tick does not dynamically change when buffs fade/drop. Still getting some irregular ticks, though.
06/27/07, 2:29 PM
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