5% pet damage seems like quite a lot. Let's say, 1-2% higher personal damage when BM speced, more after kill command change?

Silly as it may be, I'm less inclined to spec BM as a non-orc. I tried BM a while back and hated it for 5v5.

I'd like to see racial talent (and priest spell) respecs Of course, the most ridiculous in raiding is Tauren MT.

Just do WWS with both cycles Goldengiff and impress me. :/

OSSE!
I love your posts they always make me want to work hard on my hunter seeing how good a well geared and played one performs.

Anyways on to some other things. First of all im only a 67 hunter and play very little, and have little time to test, so this is just theorycraft which is probably wrong.

I believe you are using bows that are too fast. I believe the whole point of BM is the increased speed so you get more steady shots off. The following list is made assuming about 1950 rap and 25% crit the average damage from auto and steady are gotten from cheaky's spreadsheet.

Weapon- Auto Damage- Steady Damage- Time for rotation- DPS
wrathtide longbow- 1006.44- 1001.73- 2.1739- 923.7637426
sunfury bow of the pheonix- 995.6- 1023.69- 2.1014- 960.926049
wlofslayer sniper rifle- 914.3- 1010.67- 1.9565- 983.8844876
don santos rifle- 919.61- 1015.96- 1.9565- 989.3023256
scorchwood bow- 685.63- 934.91- 1.5942- 1016.522394
mamas insurance- 695.47- 947.74- 1.59942- 1027.378675
wrathfire hand cannon- 653.8- 978.04- 1.586956- 1028.283078

Im assuming the rotation is one steady plus one auto so thats the auto shot time or the time to cast a steady plus .5 seconds for auto which ever one is longer. Now i know some of these bows take perfect timing and like no latency but just posting what im working on now.
Now unless im completely wrong somewhere its funny how the green bows do better then the epics. Also the wrathfire hand cannon has a crazy dps considering the fact that you are actually cliping autoshots on it.

anyways just posting this for some reactions or to find out were i did something wrong.


Bah wish i knew how to post a table to make this clearer.

Next patch will you consider putting 2 points into Improved Mend Pet over Bestial Discipline? It just seems it would be nicer with making you as a hunter A) More Self Reliant and B) Less mana intensive. Even considering you have a shadow priest 100% of the time?

It just seems that Bestial Discipline + GFTT is a bit much even when spamming screech every time.

Be careful when using weapons that do not allow for any lag to be absorbed by the inherent delays int he rotation. My spreadsheet (Cheeky, not cheaky) is intended to be used to compare talents/gear/strategies. Unless you have some very specific information for a lot of values (mob armor, reaction time, lag, etc.) you don't see real-world numbers exactly like what the equations turn out. DPS from super-fast bows is one of its biggest holes.

The next version (out after 2.1, since it has been modified for the changes in the next patch) will have the ability to specify a lag/reaction time that gets added to the start of every user-initiated cast. Just putting a .1-.25 second delay in with those super fast bows cripples the DPS numbers you are seeing now. Whereas the slower, epic-quality bows handle the delays with little loss to DPS.

I do agree that BM's strength is to allow a Hunter to use the slower, more powerful bows available in the raids and maintain a simple auto/special rotation. Of course, I am still holding out hope that Blizzard will finally come to a clean solution for the problem of weapon speed being of much greater importance to Hunters than base weapon DPS.

Also, try using the tags [ code ] and [ /code ] (no spaces, of course) to have the section of text formatted in a fixed size font, allowing you to have clean columns.

Thanks for the reply
I just used your spreadsheet to find the average damage for each shot not for the dps value.

And yes i know some of those numbers require perfect conditions.

To see the effect of lag on the rotation, lets use the wrathfire hand cannon
the average auto damage from you spreadsheet was 653.8
the average steady damage was 978.04
for a total of 1631.84
so the dps would be that divede by the time to cast a steady plus auto, so
1.5/((1.2)*(1.15))+.5 +lag
Lag DPS
0 1028.283078
.05 996.8746869
.1 967.3281342
.15 939.4826351
.2 913.1954004
.25 888.3391872

which makes it better then the wrathfire longbow for up to .15 seconds of lag (im not sure the average latency and reaction time of hunter so im not sure if this is good.)
I believe Osse said he has like 50 ms latency which would still leave him .1 seconds to get his shot off which im assuming is enough.

When i get up in the morning ill run some numbers on some more weapons, the barrelblade longrifle looks really nice. Ill look at the skyfire hawk bow, splintermark, felsteel broomstick, and consortium blaster. Those were the only ones that seemed like they would be worth looking at ill check their dps with different lag levels too and post my findings.

I tried dps on blasted lands with pure steady-auto rotation on 18/43 build, recap captured for 5 minutes shooting, I used mp5 flask to keep it up and super mana pots, 782 dps on me, 190 dps on pet, so almost 1000 dps without any buffs, although pets do quite high damage in blasted lands due to no misses. But in any case this was only auto-steady rotation reaching almost 1000 dps on 16.58% mitigation which is a bit lower than the standard mitigation on bosses without COR.

I had 80-100 ms in PTR.

Then I tried with 41/20 build. With steady auto rotation I did 889 dps and pet did 250 dps, recap captured for 4:27. 1139 compared to 972 on MM build.

Edit: Ran another test for 4 minutes, this time recap captured 782 dps on me. I don't know if recap is bugged in PTR but 100 dps difference between 2 tries seems quite weird.

Edit: A third test for 5 minutes showed 266 dps for pet and 864 for me.

Edit: Tried in MM build a rotation which shoots arcane right after steady and before auto whenever it's ready to go, suprisingly that rotation did less dps than auto-steady only rotation.


After 5 hours of trying different rotations, the best one turned out to be BM build with steady + auto + KC. Hunter dps going up to 870 over 5 minutes with just using mp5 flask. The amazing thing was pet dps going up to 320 with spamming KC. I remind that this is an unbuffed pet. Pets with battleshout+kings+might usually do 100 dps higher than unbuffed pets. Although this is a lvl 52 mob, so dodges/parries are minimum but in any case, this rotation turned out to be the most easily managable one with using castsequence for steady/auto and timing KC right after steady cast finishes and the most damaging one. 1186 dps against a mob with 20% mitigation over 5 minutes without buffs.

(Not to mention pet's growl ability was selected for not grabbing aggro every 20 seconds, meaning lots of energy was being spent on growl which will go to Lightning Breath in a raid)

Your not coming off harsh at all, like i said i have very little in game experience so i expect to revise my thoughts on input from others.

playing with excel i came up with the following conclusion in the middle of the night so ill have to check my self later.
The best BM weapons are as follows.
0-latency - mama's insurance
.05-latency - consortium blaster
.1-latency - consortium blaster
.15-latency - consortium blaster
.2-latency - barrel-blade longrifle (with two +16ap gems)
.25-latency - barrel-blade longrifle (with two +16ap gems)
.3-latency - barrel-blade longrifle (with two +16ap gems)
.35-latency - don santo's famous hunting rifle
.4-latency - don santo's famous hunting rifle
.45-latency - sunfury bow of the pheonix
.5-latency - sunfury bow of the pheonix

i just realized none of this is accounting improved aspect of the hawk
and i also think i missed some epic weapons from raids that ill look up later

Hmm.. 1.77 attack speed with Consortium Blaster, suppose I can give it a go although it'll use buttloads of mana. :p

Oh and not sure if I said it yet but the tests I did were on live servers, dps will go up quite a bit with the new stuff. ^^

Ok, Consortium Blaster with no scope using the same buffs as before. no dps consumables, only mana. mana oils, vendor bullets etc.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=cggmtwseklybe&a=0

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=w4lfkiz3exzvk&a=0

Both with same gun, ~75ms, had two clients open and somehow managed to bug judgement of wisdom on the mob as you can see lol.

That would be close to average raid ms though so I'll stick to the Wrathtide it seems. And put 28 crit rating on it so steady shot actually benefits from the scope so dps will be even higher. :|

Shame really, I like the Consortium gun graphics.

ps. my arms hurt after making sure that I wont clip anything when rapid fire or quick shots were up.

Ya that list was assuming no improved aspect of the hawk or rapid fire. I believe you would be cliping a lot of auto shots with improved aspect of the hawk being up like half the time. Maybe you have been using the right speed all along :P. You use to have a don santons famous hunting rifle. If you could i would love to see that test since it should account for procs and rapid fire plus average out to be like 100ap gain.

i thought i read about people getting reprocs so i thought there was no cooldown.

First of all, omg, you were raiding for 7 hours?
Secondly, just a short question. You were obviously using your Pet on Maiden. Was that because you had so little melees and it was ok or did I miss a change and the pet is not chaining anymore?

1) Yes, we normally do Karazhan in two days because we swap people in and out alot (which takes time) but this week we transferred, which reset our raid IDs. So we did karazhan twice and gruul twice, and we had to cram karazhan into a single night (which, again, we normally don't do).
2) I'm not sure. I'm looking at the maiden fight now (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=5&s=4685,4817) and from the looks of it, my pet WAS taking more holy damage than just the consecration. Presumably it was also chaining Holy Wrath. However, when I look at Maiden's damage out(http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&a=28) I see she only had 6 holy wrath hits. Considering we had 2 warriors and a Druid in melee range in addition to my pet, I'd say we probably got lucky with the chaining. I seem to remember Alcaras standing on top of my pet , so there was a triangle between the him/pet, other warrior, and druid. I would guess that any chaining of holy wrath occured only between Alcaras and my pet, if my recollection of events is correct.

Short version: I think pets chain on Maiden. I don't specifically recall if my pet was hit by holy wrath, but from the looks of things I think it was.

Typically after taking Intimidation/Discipline I have 2 pts left to get to the next tier, which I dump into Endurance. If I wanted Imp. Mend I would probably dump those 2 points in there instead.

Sorry I was gone for a while, missed the requests for the full video. I actually trashed the source after I cropped out the piece with me in it. I'll record and post a few more during this week.

Far as specials go, I was using max rank everything cool downs permitting. Steady shots most of the time, slotting multis and arcanes as possible. Burned all my mana in 80 seconds, did about 66800 damage in that time period so a bit over 800 dps from my ranged attacks.

I should be running a bunch of heroics this week and I'll see what kinda vids I can get.

Edit: Oh and I got a bunch of PMs about my cast bars. Like others have mentioned I use LittleTrouble for my autoshot timer. I use eCastingBar for my cast bar and played with the sizes/transparencies till I could drag the main eCastingBar over LittleTrouble and the result is what you saw.

I've been using Cheeky's spreadsheet to calculate available focus per second for abilities. With my cat I'm seeing a slight excess of focus on average (spamming both Bite and Claw; with bestial discipline and GFTT @ 20% to crit). Modeling a Windserpent, I'm not getting enough focus to maintain LB spam. Theoretically, according to the spreadsheet, I gain approximately 11 dps by going with my cat (not to mention that I don't have to deal with the stupid caster pathing). With a ravager I'm using focus at about the same rate as with my cat, but gore is less effective at turning focus into damage than claw.

As far as I'm concerned, the modeling puts cats ahead of wind serpents and ravagers. Now, if you have an enhancement shaman from whom you windserpent can steal SS charges, it probably would put out more damage. Then again, that doesn't seem like a very good plan.

For reference, the special attack numbers the spreadsheet returned @20% to crit were
Cat (spamming claw 9 bite 9) ===106.12 DPS
Ravager (spamming gore 9 bite 9) ===85.66 DPS
Windserpent (spamming LB 6) ===94.25 DPS

Granted this is theoretical, but given the theoretical disparity between a windserpent and cat, the annoying caster pathing of the windserpent, and the ready availability of level 70 cats (in skettis) for taming, I'd say go with a cat if you have the choice.

All this talk of latency, shot rotations, ect, I have enough arena points to pick up the Gladiator's Xbow Tuesday, just wondering if any BM hunters have this and if working out a rotation similar to a Marks Auto->Special->Special->Auto->Special->Repeat with the slower 3.2 Xbow would work out?

Do any BM hunters use this, or are aspiring to get it? I'm using Sunfury right now, and seems with two haste effects active, like many others have stated in this post, it's not worth Steady Shotting, just Auto->Arcane/Multi/KC..

Maybe the theorycrafters could help you more with this, but with 200ms ping or so I don't remember being able to get two specials in between autos without delaying an auto.

Marks Auto->Special->Special->Auto rotation cannot be done with any spec or any bow currently in game afaik.
GCD is 1.5s for all shots.

Does this take into account the fact that Claw and Bite are not spammable?
Surely if you've taken Go for the throat, having a pet with the ability to dump focus fast is your primary concern.

Only Bite is not spammable. I did think Gore was slightly better though, because of the 50% damage increase chance.