Well, if you are BM spc with a 2.8 speed weapon and you want to maximize DPS you shouldn't even use multi shot or arcane shot. Just delete everything in your castsequence macro after "Auto Shot, Steady Shot"
Yep, using higher damage shots in rotation to do more damage is sure to be a very bad thing. Good luck with velcroing your shoes on in the morning and whatnot.
Moron.
He said he needs macros for three situations. Steady>Auto will cover his need to save mana situation, but the other two obviously have different requirements.
Yep, using higher damage shots in rotation to do more damage is sure to be a very bad thing. Good luck with velcroing your shoes on in the morning and whatnot.
Moron.
He said he needs macros for three situations. Steady>Auto will cover his need to save mana situation, but the other two obviously have different requirements.
I helped him with one of his questions, what exactly did you help with? Moron.
Except you said to maximize his DPS to just use a steady>auto rotation. Which on all bosses in the game means you are giving up potential DPS.
While it is true that on some bosses (solarian, RoS, Teron) using arcane is a net loss of damage for your GCD, multi is just more damaging than steady. And while I don't personally use shot macros as I feel it cheapens the raiding experience and is overall a crutch, if someone really wants to use them then at least give them the correct answer.
So, for max dps you'll only want to use one GCD causing skill between autos and KC when it's up. Preferably, KC before your shot so you don't clip autos at the end. If you're marks or survival the answer changes a little.
Marks and survival have completely different Shot rotation from BM.
BM use only one special (and KC if available) between autos because of BM haste talent.
Marks and Survival use 6 specials on every 4 auto shots(max specials cycle).
Look for shot cycle example in Cheeky's spreadsheet.
1. take a trash pet.
2. let pet attack
3. run as far as you can
4. pet dies
5. feign death
6. tame your new pet
That should work, I guess
Aspect of the Cheetah with Invisibility potions work wonders too. Once you get to the split, go right and there's only the slimes which are much easier to deal with instead of the 4-5 Orcs you'd get otherwise.
I'm curious to know that, if u have imp aoth procd and rapid fire used, would it be better to just auto shoot and not steady shot, if ur atk spd goes under the 1.6 global crab.
I'm curious to know that, if u have imp aoth procd and rapid fire used, would it be better to just auto shoot and not steady shot, if ur atk spd goes under the 1.6 global crab.
1.5 second global crab, yes. It would be better to focus on arcane, multishot and kill command only at that time no matter what spec you are. Common problem as BM since rapid fire puts you around or below 1.5 attack speed.
1.7 atk speed with latency and human reflexes is just about as fast as the average player can pump out a perfect steady auto rotation anyway before auto shots start to get delayed.
I've seen the calculations on different trinkets' average AP gain, that were made a couple of pages back .
I assume this is in case you equip the trinket, and leave it there for the entire duration of the fight (hence the "/ Cooldown Time" part).
For about one week now, I have been swapping two trinkets in my upper trinket slot (I swap the Brooch and the Abacus, and I keep my Hourglass in the lower slot).
With the 2 minutes cooldown on most +AP trinkets, I believe that the optimal rotation would consist of three trinkets (counting the 30 sec "on equip" cooldown, each trinket only needs to stay in your bag 1min30 before you equip it again, and 1min30 is 3 FD/trinket swap).
The two trinkets I have been using in my "trinket rotation" so far are Bloodlust Brooch (used in combination with BW, and +APdrums when up) and Abacus of Violent Odds (used together with RF, and +haste drums when up : since I stop using SS during RF, I thought some additional haste couldn't hurt).
I am however uncertain which trinket should be the third one in my rotation.
I selected the Crystalforged Trinket (Ogri'la rep.) and Earthstrike (lvl60 Cenarion Circle rep.), which are the two trinkets at my disposal with the highest +AP effect when used.
Would the +7 weapon damage of the Crystalforged Trinket make up for the 10 sec only duration, if you compared it to Earthstrike, that has a longer On Use duration, but no passive bonus ?
Trinkets such as the Tsunami Talisman might make my little trinket rotation pointless, but it will take me a couple more weeks before I can hope having access to it, and I don't plan on giving up optimizing my damage output until then.
For about one week now, I have been swapping two trinkets in my upper trinket slot (I swap the Brooch and the Abacus, and I keep my Hourglass in the lower slot).
With the 2 minutes cooldown on most +AP trinkets, I believe that the optimal rotation would consist of three trinkets (counting the 30 sec "on equip" cooldown, each trinket only needs to stay in your bag 1min30 before you equip it again, and 1min30 is 3 FD/trinket swap).
Well, you can't really swap it out during the time the trinket effect is on (FD would waste some of the time). 2 trinkets works best in my experience, since there's always some interruption or movement required which messes up the rotation.
Well, you can't really swap it out during the time the trinket effect is on (FD would waste some of the time). 2 trinkets works best in my experience, since there's always some interruption or movement required which messes up the rotation.
Trinket-swapping (in a systematic way) is quite new to me.
And because I didn't want to take too much risk with it, I only experimented it on content that my guild is perfectly comfortable farming. And I have to say I found myself waiting for my trinket to be ready a couple of times (we're talking 10-20 sec waiting).
This is what lead me to the "3 trinkets rotation" suggestion.
I guess this is where theorycrafting meets real situations.
3 trinkets rotations might require too much of a perfect and ideal situation to actually work.
My problem with this whole /cooldown trinket swapping scheme is the potential for loss. Each feign makes you lose 1 autoshot, and logically a certain amount of stats (because your other trinkets arent going to be quite as good in the passive department, are they?). I'm not sure if the possibility of having that extra 200AP for 15 second gain is worth the loss of 900 damage from an auto, and most of the higher end trinket's arent a use but a proc, which means you're choosing your swapping over say a tsunami talisman, or a dragonspine.
My problem with this whole /cooldown trinket swapping scheme is the potential for loss. Each feign makes you lose 1 autoshot, and logically a certain amount of stats (because your other trinkets arent going to be quite as good in the passive department, are they?). I'm not sure if the possibility of having that extra 200AP for 15 second gain is worth the loss of 900 damage from an auto, and most of the higher end trinket's arent a use but a proc, which means you're choosing your swapping over say a tsunami talisman, or a dragonspine.
Good practice for trinket swapping is to have "activated" ones on at start. You *must* FD few (20-30) seconds into en counter and then second FD when its up right?
Use trinkets on start, nuke away (BW+Scorpid posion if you are doing it) FD at ~10-20k tank aggro where you catch him.
With Trinket Menu switch is automatic as soon as you exit combat so "switch time" is minimal. And there is no loss since you had to FD anyway due aggro issues.
Good practice for trinket swapping is to have "activated" ones on at start. You *must* FD few (20-30) seconds into en counter and then second FD when its up right?
Use trinkets on start, nuke away (BW+Scorpid posion if you are doing it) FD at ~10-20k tank aggro where you catch him.
With Trinket Menu switch is automatic as soon as you exit combat so "switch time" is minimal. And there is no loss since you had to FD anyway due aggro issues.
This is exactly how I see it : I have to FD anyway. The potential loss, however, might reside in calling back the pet so that one of its attacks doesn't keep you in combat (1-2 auto-attacks and 1 special might be lost that way) .
And, @Ishmael, I also agree that at your level of itemization, the quality of the trinkets does that you have more benefit leaving them the way they are rather than losing shots/pet attacks to swap them with something less efficient.
The autoshot I "lose", for instance, is 600 dmg only, and not 900 (guild just started 25man content, Gruul not down yet).
The way I went with things was to put one point in rapid killing, and skip the trinket swapping entirely. I've tried in the past, and I just can't reliably switch trinkets and feel like I have anything to show for it.
With one point in rapid killing, your rapid cool down coincides with your trinket/TBW cool downs, so you get one trinket/wrath/rapid, and one trinket/wrath. When I had both points, or no points in rapid killing, my rapid cooldown would always be out of sync with my trinket and tbw, and I'd find myself either waiting to stack cooldowns, or using rapid by itself, which doesn't pack the same punch as stacking all three.
On an unrelated tangent, my raid wants me to check out survival next week, so I'll lose one of those cooldowns. I'm not too excited about it, I've never really been a survival fan, but at the same time it will be nice to try out something new! I am not, however, looking forward to sticking two specials between autoshots again.
1.5 second global crab, yes. It would be better to focus on arcane, multishot and kill command only at that time no matter what spec you are. Common problem as BM since rapid fire puts you around or below 1.5 attack speed.
Well, that's not what Cheeky's spreadsheet shows, and not what I do in practice. With my gear and rapidfire, I get 1612 nominal spreadsheet dps with a steady/auto rotation and 1306 dps with a multi/auto/arcane/auto/auto... until arcane is ready. (You need to look at the normal dps numbers only for this analysis.)
Put another way, the highest dps rotation for BM's (and high-haste MM/Surv's) is special/auto which will curve up to reach a maximum dps as your haste increases. Yes, you should ALWAYS interleave a special with an auto. Then that dps value remains constant until around +1800 or so haste rating, when a pure autoshot rotation finally exceeds the dps of a special/auto rotation.
1.7 atk speed with latency and human reflexes is just about as fast as the average player can pump out a perfect steady auto rotation anyway before auto shots start to get delayed.
My mousewheeled macro and carpal-tunneled finger disagrees with you 8-).
My mousewheeled macro and carpal-tunneled finger disagrees with you 8-).
Parse a combat log, I will be really surprised if you get much closer than 1.7s between auto shots while still interleaving a special. You might be surprised what you find as well (you are clipping an didn't even know it).
Originally Posted by Kolusius
With one point in rapid killing, your rapid cool down coincides with your trinket/TBW cool downs, so you get one trinket/wrath/rapid, and one trinket/wrath. When I had both points, or no points in rapid killing, my rapid cooldown would always be out of sync with my trinket and tbw, and I'd find myself either waiting to stack cooldowns, or using rapid by itself, which doesn't pack the same punch as stacking all three.
I've found that rapid fire really hasn't been worth it.
At a 1.93 auto speed rapid fire takes me down to 1.38. This gives me 0.725 shots per second.
Since I can only really use multi and arcane.
Multi is 1 shot every 10.5 seconds or 0.095 shots per second.
Arcane is 1 shot every 6 seconds or 0.167 shots per second.
All together this gets me to 0.987 shots per second.
When I am running just auto special rotation I've got 2 shots per 1.93 seconds which comes out to 1.036 shots per second.
Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon
Parse a combat log, I will be really surprised if you get much closer than 1.7s between auto shots while still interleaving a special. You might be surprised what you find as well (you are clipping an didn't even know it).
I've found that rapid fire really hasn't been worth it.
At a 1.93 auto speed rapid fire takes me down to 1.38. This gives me 0.725 shots per second.
Since I can only really use multi and arcane.
Multi is 1 shot every 10.5 seconds or 0.095 shots per second.
Arcane is 1 shot every 6 seconds or 0.167 shots per second.
All together this gets me to 0.987 shots per second.
When I am running just auto special rotation I've got 2 shots per 1.93 seconds which comes out to 1.036 shots per second.
Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon
I'm finding this out as well. In practice BM Hunters just don't have the flexibility to use the massive haste of Rapid Fire (and [Dragonspine Trophy]) unless you can really handle foricbly clipping your auto shots. It feels odd doing it, when you spend the other part of your time avoiding it.
I still use my racial Berserk, since that 10% gain isn't too much of a difference. I know theoretically piling on haste and then forcing clips when you can't use instants is better, but I can't get that to match up with my raid logs. I seem to do less DPS with Rapid Fire because of this.
Haste itemization may bring MM spec back in line in overall DPS with BM (as would the more obvious answer, faster weapons) while also allowing for more mana efficiency. But it seems like you only get 1/2 way there right now.
Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon
What about continuing your special/auto rotation when rapid fire is up? Instead of 2 shots every 1.93 seconds, you would get 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or however fast you can spam steadies. That would be more DPS than without rapid fire.
Contrary to what some may expect, it actually gets much easier to maintain an auto/steady rotation when your autoshot speed gets down under 1.5. Unless you are using a weapon with a super fast base attack speed, your steady shot will be down under 1 second when your autoshot gets down to 1.5. Your autoshots will fire .5 after your steady finishes, but before your GCD is done. Because of this you can pound your steady button relentlessly with no chance you will ever mess up and insert more than 1 steady between autoshots.
What about continuing your special/auto rotation when rapid fire is up? Instead of 2 shots every 1.93 seconds, you would get 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or however fast you can spam steadies. That would be more DPS than without rapid fire.
I agree, the only thing that could cause you to shoot slower while a haste effect is active is changing your rotation to a less effective one.
What about continuing your special/auto rotation when rapid fire is up? Instead of 2 shots every 1.93 seconds, you would get 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or however fast you can spam steadies. That would be more DPS than without rapid fire.
Contrary to what some may expect, it actually gets much easier to maintain an auto/steady rotation when your autoshot speed gets down under 1.5. Unless you are using a weapon with a super fast base attack speed, your steady shot will be down under 1 second when your autoshot gets down to 1.5. Your autoshots will fire .5 after your steady finishes, but before your GCD is done. Because of this you can pound your steady button relentlessly with no chance you will ever mess up and insert more than 1 steady between autoshots.
I left IAotH out of the picture to make the explanation simpler. However when I have hawk up my average time between auto shots is just about 1.7s while interleaving specials/steadies.
They really need to take a stab at fixing our auto shot mechanics. I find myself in a situation where one of my neat class abilities is worthless and pretty much every weapon is a side grade unless I can stack ~10% haste. Whoever designed the end game weapons needs to update the damn templates and drop some 2.6, 2.7s weapons out there.
A 22 dps upgrade is not an upgrade if I fire 10% less shots over time.
Edit:
P.S. They also need to re itemize the tiered armor away from int. Marks is not the default raiding build anymore, we don't need that much int.
P.P.S. I also wouldn't mind if demon stalker had a worthwhile set bonus so I could take that crap out of the bank and shelf my Beast Lord I've been wearing for 6 months. 600 amor penetration > 4 pieces of demon stalker.
I agree, the only thing that could cause you to shoot slower while a haste effect is active is changing your rotation to a less effective one.
The reason I don't use Rapid Fire is because it a)eats mana and b)eats a GCD. Although I do more damage with rapid fire up than without, I'm not sure it's worth the mana / lost GCD.
(My attack speed is about 1.9 so at best it gives me 10 shots at 1.5 speed in those 15 seconds vs. 7.9 without. So 2.1 extra shots, but no GCD means it's a very expensive 1.1 shots (and if Hawk triggers in there it's a waste)
Once I get a slower ranged weapon(any kara weapon... 4 months and no drops makes me sad) the equation may change.
As a BM hunter I find myself using Rapid Fire still, but situationally:
1) With Heroism/Bloodlust. Quite often I'll have this plus Quick Shots, so I merely kick off Rapid Fire and go to a Arcane/Multi/KC rotation until all that stuff wears off. An example of this would be the adds on Magtheridon.
2) When I'm at low mana and Wisdom is judged on the mob, I'll hit Rapid Fire and just autoshot to regen mana. This doesn't happen very often (mana pots are your friend) but it's not bad.
3) For when I need a short burst of "faster" dps as opposed to consistent dps. A good example is the Spitfire Totems on the first mob we kill at Fathom Lord; I use BW on the first one, my AP trinket on the second one, and Rapid Fire on the third one. I'm using Multi/Arcane on the totems anyway, so losing the Auto/Steady rotation isn't so bad.
I have a Hunter in my raid group who seems to think using Aimed Shot while hastes are up in place of a Steady Shot will net more DPS. I'm convinced that this is not true, but am wondering if someone has a spare moment to run over the numbers for me.
I believe it wont be more DPS due to resetting the Auto shot and effectively losing at least one Auto shot.
He says he uses Aimed when he has Rapid Fire, Abacus of Violent Odds, and Troll Berz racial active. Using a Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle. He is BM spec with 5/5 Serpent Swiftness.
With these hastes active, and ignoring Berz for now, as with the first two the speed is already below GCD, we have an Auto speed of 1.12; Aimed cast of 1.45; and, a Steady cast of 0.6 seconds.
On Gruul his average damage per shot (after reduction, based on WWS parses) is:
Auto 545
Steady 566
Aimed 1278
Multi 705
Arcane 678
So, is anyone able to run the numbers to see if using Aimed is justified under those hastes?
It's all fun & games till someone gets a [Hydrocane] in the eye!
07/15/07, 11:01 AM
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