1) Yes, we normally do Karazhan in two days because we swap people in and out alot (which takes time) but this week we transferred, which reset our raid IDs. So we did karazhan twice and gruul twice, and we had to cram karazhan into a single night (which, again, we normally don't do).
2) I'm not sure. I'm looking at the maiden fight now (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=5&s=4685,4817) and from the looks of it, my pet WAS taking more holy damage than just the consecration. Presumably it was also chaining Holy Wrath. However, when I look at Maiden's damage out(http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&a=28) I see she only had 6 holy wrath hits. Considering we had 2 warriors and a Druid in melee range in addition to my pet, I'd say we probably got lucky with the chaining. I seem to remember Alcaras standing on top of my pet , so there was a triangle between the him/pet, other warrior, and druid. I would guess that any chaining of holy wrath occured only between Alcaras and my pet, if my recollection of events is correct.
Short version: I think pets chain on Maiden. I don't specifically recall if my pet was hit by holy wrath, but from the looks of things I think it was.
Actually I'm a bit confused now. The name of the chained spell for the melee range is Holy Wrath, right?
I only saw the wrath hit your warrior one time. All the other times it hit ranged classes, like your mages and priests, and I cant see any chaining whatsoever. So maybe this is either not really displayed correctly or it was completely changed.
On the Curator for example everything is plain to see. The spawning Flares hit 2 warriors and your pet each time they spawn.
Edit: Whats even funnier, I just checked a 3 week old log from us and it was the same. 90% of holy wrath goes to ranged casters. Strange, or I'm missing something...
The only damage done to the other melees is repentance and holy ground, and I guess thats her aura.
Edit2: Reading up on a guide it seems holy wrath has been random all the time and not only meant for melee. It just causes bigger problems if it hits a melee, but neither in yours not in my log did I see a moment where 2 people where hit.
Edit3: ok, now its all clear. It is random target damage and it chains just perfectly. I just had a look at our log from last week and we had 4 melees in. The wrath hit the first one for 2068, the second for 2771, the third for 3407 and the fourth for 5595.
If my pet would have been in there, someone would have died in that moment, so sadly I'll have to keep it out. The only thing that has me wondering is, why no one received chain hits when your warrior got hit by wrath.
I have to add one thing to this rotation discussion and the lags. On my server I mostly use a castsequence macro for steady/auto with the Steelhawk Xbox. As a BM my autospeed is 2.01 so there is a LOT of space for the steady which should be hasted to around 1.1 cast speed and I very rarely clobber my autoshot.
Now I was playing on the test server and sadly cant say what the latency was, because I have a complete custom ui.
But the point is, even when I was mashing the button like crazy there was almost not ONE single autoshot that was not clobbered by at least +0.1 and often +0.3.
So I imagine latency was not great on the PTR, but since many people play with a bad latency that really shows its a big dps hit in the end and I imagine MM hunter who try to fit in 2 specials between an autoshot have just about 0 chance to do so without perfect latency.
Gore (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 37 to 61 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.
37+61 / 2 = 49
49x1.5 = 73.5
73.5 / 25 = 2.94
Claw (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Claw the enemy, causing 54 to 76 damage.
54+76 / 2 = 65
65/25 = 2.6
So yeah, I dont understand how claw is better either. :|
Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
Well i'm usually sitting at about 300-400ms on the PTR.
The impact of that is doubly bad given that the client will not allow another shot to fire until it has confirmation that the previous one has cast.
The effect of that being that if you are trying to follow steady with a special, you then have to wait double the lag time to actually fire that special(minus haste taken off steady shot)
Beastmastery alleviates the issue somewhat as you are only waiting on a client delay in order to fire the autoshot rather than a server check.
Gore (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 37 to 61 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.
37+61 / 2 = 49
49x1.5 = 73.5
73.5 / 25 = 2.94
Claw (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Claw the enemy, causing 54 to 76 damage.
54+76 / 2 = 65
65/25 = 2.6
So yeah, I dont understand how claw is better either. :|
Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
I hadn't worked it out by hand, I had only been using the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is returning different numbers than your calculations; my guess is that Cheeky's sheet is not correctly calculating the possibility of 50% extra damage on Gore - I'll check this when I get home. Based on the numbers you posted it would appear Gore is superior, however.
As far as the use of the term "spamming" I only meant it with respect to having autocast on for my pet. I don't know how the pet cast priority system works, but my guess is that it casts whatever ability costs the most focus (given that the pet has enough focus to cast this).
As far as the model goes, from all appearances Cheeky's sheet works out focus per second based on ability usage and compares this with focus per second provided from talents / GFTT (based on crit rate) to determine how often an ability will be cast. Given that the focus per second usage on claw and bite (or Gore and Bite, for a ravager) is somewhat lower a cat is able to cast them more often than a windserpent can cast lightning breath, yielding a higher damage return. Presumably. I haven't dug into the spreadsheet's guts very much, nor am I inclined to do so; you can ask him how he models it if you need more information (I could be totally wrong about how it works, so keep that in mind). Empirical testing at this point probably would be both more accurate and useful.
I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.
I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.
I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
Here's my LB stats from yesterday:
Hits Avg Max Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist%
414 203 376 60 309 467 11% 10.1% 3.2%
You're clearly looking at more damage per focus, but as to whether that outdoes 3% melee damage, I can't say.
Last night we were in Tempest Keep trying out Astromancer for the first time and I have a few things to say about Beast Mastery in regards to TK up to this point... First, the pets are quite prone to death, (really fast death), if you're not paying attention. Certain mobs WW quite a bit and AOE damage on some of the casters in there is also a sure death if you're not fast to react. I assume this kind of shit will cease to happen or be way more friendly with the changes in 2.1. We'll see...
Having said that... If you can manage your pet's HP you can put out disgusting sustained DPS on the trash mobs and even on the boss fights. I was pushing 1300+ dps on the boss very consistently and peaking out at 1500+ on bursts. Needless to say, I could not pull off this kind of "SUSTAINED" DPS with the other 2 talent trees. Now I realize that full MM has some really sweet burst in PVP, etc. However, I'm speaking from a PVE point of view only at this point.
The screenshot here shows some numbers, (I won't post WWS results for Astromancer at this point), to give you an idea of what's possible when full potted, etc etc. http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/117/1300eb7.jpg
click picture twice to maximize the size. Pic is 1680x1050.
Offtopic, but for some time now I try to get this addon which shows you the name of the shot next to the damage. People said its sct, but I cant get it done.
Is it sct? And if yes, what option do I have to use?
Hits Avg Max Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist%
414 203 376 60 309 467 11% 10.1% 3.2%
You're clearly looking at more damage per focus, but as to whether that outdoes 3% melee damage, I can't say.
I don't think this is the issue at hand, however. LB does do more damage per focus, but the time between casts (unless you get a crit streak or generally have a high crit rate) is somewhat longer than the time between claws. Keep in mind that although we tend to model abilities as continuous (for example, damage per mana) they are actually discrete (correct me if I'm wrong). Because abilties are discrete they won't act as perfectly as you model them - which is why the lower cost (i.e. higher granularity) of claw/gore MIGHT mean higher damage output than LB, but I couldn't say with any certainty without more testing.
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy
Hmm,
I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.
I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
I think you misinterpreted my last post, I didn't mean to imply there is a difference between gore and claw in terms of focus per second, but rather that claw and gore are the same but BOTH are different from lightning breath.
I hadn't worked it out by hand, I had only been using the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is returning different numbers than your calculations; my guess is that Cheeky's sheet is not correctly calculating the possibility of 50% extra damage on Gore - I'll check this when I get home. Based on the numbers you posted it would appear Gore is superior, however.
As far as the use of the term "spamming" I only meant it with respect to having autocast on for my pet. I don't know how the pet cast priority system works, but my guess is that it casts whatever ability costs the most focus (given that the pet has enough focus to cast this).
As far as the model goes, from all appearances Cheeky's sheet works out focus per second based on ability usage and compares this with focus per second provided from talents / GFTT (based on crit rate) to determine how often an ability will be cast. Given that the focus per second usage on claw and bite (or Gore and Bite, for a ravager) is somewhat lower a cat is able to cast them more often than a windserpent can cast lightning breath, yielding a higher damage return. Presumably. I haven't dug into the spreadsheet's guts very much, nor am I inclined to do so; you can ask him how he models it if you need more information (I could be totally wrong about how it works, so keep that in mind). Empirical testing at this point probably would be both more accurate and useful.
There is a bug in the current version on Gore. I completely left out the 150% damage adjustment to account for the double damage 50% of the time thing. I also added in a 5% dodge chance for melee attacks. I have no idea what to put for mob parry or block, so those are still unaccounted for.
I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.
Your summary of the way I model pet special attacks is pretty much spot-on. The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.
Here is the DPF (Damage per Focus) using the correct math for Gore, and a non-BM Hunter:
Bite 9 : 4.13
Claw 9 : 3.13
Gore 9 : 3.54
Furious Howl 4 : 2.17 (Hunter and pet effected only.)
Lightning Breath 6 : 2.84
As you can see, Gore is only second to Bite in terms of effiency, and Ravagers will most likely be slightly out-damaging cats. Once you can get a level 70 Ravager I'll probably grab one.
I currently do not have any +spell damage added into Lightning Breath from Hunter RAP. Does anyone know for sure what the ratio is now? Also how do we compute the chance for Lightning Breath to critically hit, is it pet Int based? (I can't wait to tell the mages to AI my pet each time I rez him. )
There is a bug in the current version on Gore. I completely left out the 150% damage adjustment to account for the double damage 50% of the time thing. I also added in a 5% dodge chance for melee attacks. I have no idea what to put for mob parry or block, so those are still unaccounted for.
I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.
Your summary of the way I model pet special attacks is pretty much spot-on. The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.
Here is the DPF (Damage per Focus) using the correct math for Gore, and a non-BM Hunter:
Bite 9 : 4.13
Claw 9 : 3.13
Gore 9 : 3.54
Furious Howl 4 : 2.17 (Hunter and pet effected only.)
Lightning Breath 6 : 2.84
As you can see, Gore is only second to Bite in terms of effiency, and Ravagers will most likely be slightly out-damaging cats. Once you can get a level 70 Ravager I'll probably grab one.
I currently do not have any +spell damage added into Lightning Breath from Hunter RAP. Does anyone know for sure what the ratio is now? Also how do we compute the chance for Lightning Breath to critically hit, is it pet Int based? (I can't wait to tell the mages to AI my pet each time I rez him. )
Thanks for the update on the state of the spreadsheet - it was probably irresponsible of me to present that information for modeling if the sheet wasn't complete yet (my fault there). I don't currently have a windserpent, but I might be able to run some tests when I get home (tame one and play around with it). If nothing else I should be able to tell if AI has ANY effect on LB crit chance. For my own reference, is there a stat that effects pet melee chance that the community is aware of?
Offtopic, but for some time now I try to get this addon which shows you the name of the shot next to the damage. People said its sct, but I cant get it done.
Is it sct? And if yes, what option do I have to use?
Its called MIK's combat log. It used to be an ACE2 mod but for some reason it was removed. You can find it on curse gaming.
Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
Do I understand correctly that they are adding level 70 ravagers in 2.1? If so where will they be?
I've been going back and forth, trying to decide between BM and MM for my raiding spec. I want to be able to provide the maximum DPS possible to my group, but because I enjoy the playstyle a bit more, I'd prefer to go MM if it's not significantly inferior to BM. I've been doing some theorycrafting comparisons and figured that I'd pass them along.
For my calculations, I assumed 500 Agi, 250 Int, 1000 AP from gear, 130 crit, 120 hit, 32 DPS ammo, and a 77.4 DPS, 2.9 speed weapon (I approximated these based on Howitzer's gear, figuring it'd be a good representation of typical raiding gear). I did not include consumables (my guild tends not to use them as we're semi-casual), but did include Kings, Might, Mark of the Wild, and Arcane Brilliance. Pet DPS values are based on Cheeky's spreadsheet calculations and I used a steady-shot rotation for BM and a steady-shot/multi-shot replacement rotation for MM.
41/20 BM: 2183 RAP, 1077 hunter DPS, 380 pet DPS, 1457 total DPS
7/49+ MM: 2727 RAP, 1106 hunter DPS, 215 pet DPS, 1321 total DPS
Clearly, BM is a better choice with this particular gear set, and by a fairly significant margin (over 10%). However, if I were to use the same numbers, but with a 2.4 speed bow (the current "ideal" speed for MM builds), the 7/49 build would provide a total DPS of 1441 - very similar to the BM values. What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).
Still not sure what I'm going to make of this as I get my hunter closer to raidworthiness, but I think it's clear that if my goal is max DPS and there are no changes to ranged weapon itemization (at least in the ranges attainable by my guild currently), BM will be the choice I'll need to make.
Originally Posted by Cheeky
The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.
Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.
What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).
I whole-heartedly agree with this. By making every ranged epic weapon in the 2.7-2.9s speed you depress the DPS of MM Hunters who cannot hit 2 specials between autos due to latency. Because of Serpent's Swiftness there are always going to be a portion of Hunters who want slow bows and a portion who want fast bows. With the infinite amounf of daggers available as raid loot, it shouldn't be too hard to add in a slightly faster bow/gun here or there...
Originally Posted by Jezele
Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.
The in-progress version has glancing blows modeled at the 2.0 rates on all normal melee (i.e. white damage) attacks. Against a level 73 boss it works out as a 26% DPS decrease to that damage only. I have also added in Cobra Reflexes in anticipation of the next patch.
The only remaining information I need to feel good about where pet DPS is at is:
1) Lightning Breath +damage from RAP ratio
2) New glancing blow rates and damage reduction
Someone earlier was asking why some hunters have an aversion towards BM spec. The problem for me isn't that it's "more micromanagement" although that is true. It's that the BM spec simply isn't fun. It is entirely autoshot dependant spec. With auto accounting for 40-50% of your personal damage output. This is a video game with make believe goals and rewards, so like many others the only true reward is pride. Winning at the damage meters, having your ingame name be synonymous with being known as a good player, etc.. Having my character simply autoshot himself onto the damage meters is embarrassing for me. It's also frustrating to depend on a pet friendly encounter for you to truly achieve your full DPS potential.
I also found it's survivability in non-raid situations very annoying. If you go a full 41 you can't get scattershot. Intimidation is on a 1min CD and requires your pet to be on the right target and in range to attack. Pets are such a nuisance in terms of that (having trouble attacking a moving target) that I often found myself dead. Going MM gives you so much more in terms of scattershot, imp wing clip (if you go 0/41/20), silent shot. I also find the 31 and 41 pt talents terrible, especially the 41. I don't know what Blizzard was thinking on that one. At least in MM the 31 is a persistent bonus, and silent shot is very useful in non-raiding situations.
Fundamentally I oppose BM. It's dependence on an auto attack, it's dependence on an often times unusable pet. It's as if you aren't really playing the game anymore, it's playing for you. I can't take pride in what I'm doing under those circumstances. I told my guild mates that I would quit Warcraft before I spec BM again. So I quit Warcraft back in early February. There are plenty of games out there, I don't need to be watching my character autoshoot for a 4hr raid. Others may find glory in autoshooting and telling your pet when to do a KC/BW, I don't. I've played a raiding warrior and priest before, so such a lack of involvement is too frustrating to stand for me. I regret selling my priest and warrior just before TBC came out.
What is your spec?
The numbers take on a whole new meaning if we factor in unleased fury and pet happiness.
My spec should link from my profile. It's a typical 41/20/0. Pet happiness is pretty much always green; at least it was for those stats I pasted.
Someone earlier was asking why some hunters have an aversion towards BM spec. The problem for me isn't that it's "more micromanagement" although that is true. It's that the BM spec simply isn't fun. It is entirely autoshot dependant spec. With auto accounting for 40-50% of your personal damage output. This is a video game with make believe goals and rewards, so like many others the only true reward is pride. Winning at the damage meters, having your ingame name be synonymous with being known as a good player, etc.. Having my character simply autoshot himself onto the damage meters is embarrassing for me. It's also frustrating to depend on a pet friendly encounter for you to truly achieve your full DPS potential.
I also found it's survivability in non-raid situations very annoying. If you go a full 41 you can't get scattershot. Intimidation is on a 1min CD and requires your pet to be on the right target and in range to attack. Pets are such a nuisance in terms of that (having trouble attacking a moving target) that I often found myself dead. Going MM gives you so much more in terms of scattershot, imp wing clip (if you go 0/41/20), silent shot. I also find the 31 and 41 pt talents terrible, especially the 41. I don't know what Blizzard was thinking on that one. At least in MM the 31 is a persistent bonus, and silent shot is very useful in non-raiding situations.
Fundamentally I oppose BM. It's dependence on an auto attack, it's dependence on an often times unusable pet. It's as if you aren't really playing the game anymore, it's playing for you. I can't take pride in what I'm doing under those circumstances. I told my guild mates that I would quit Warcraft before I spec BM again. So I quit Warcraft back in early February. There are plenty of games out there, I don't need to be watching my character autoshoot for a 4hr raid. Others may find glory in autoshooting and telling your pet when to do a KC/BW, I don't. I've played a raiding warrior and priest before, so such a lack of involvement is too frustrating to stand for me. I regret selling my priest and warrior just before TBC came out.
I think you are greatly mistaken about BM. MM has a very similar % of damage coming from Auto-shot. I am BM for the first time in over 2 years, and if there is one thing that is immediatly obvious right off the bat it's that BM spec is MUCH more involved when you're raiding.
Now, your comments about it outside of raids are fine, but I think you are not understanding where your damage comes from as an MM Hunter.
I've been going back and forth, trying to decide between BM and MM for my raiding spec. I want to be able to provide the maximum DPS possible to my group, but because I enjoy the playstyle a bit more, I'd prefer to go MM if it's not significantly inferior to BM. I've been doing some theorycrafting comparisons and figured that I'd pass them along.
For my calculations, I assumed 500 Agi, 250 Int, 1000 AP from gear, 130 crit, 120 hit, 32 DPS ammo, and a 77.4 DPS, 2.9 speed weapon (I approximated these based on Howitzer's gear, figuring it'd be a good representation of typical raiding gear). I did not include consumables (my guild tends not to use them as we're semi-casual), but did include Kings, Might, Mark of the Wild, and Arcane Brilliance. Pet DPS values are based on Cheeky's spreadsheet calculations and I used a steady-shot rotation for BM and a steady-shot/multi-shot replacement rotation for MM.
41/20 BM: 2183 RAP, 1077 hunter DPS, 380 pet DPS, 1457 total DPS
7/49+ MM: 2727 RAP, 1106 hunter DPS, 215 pet DPS, 1321 total DPS
Clearly, BM is a better choice with this particular gear set, and by a fairly significant margin (over 10%). However, if I were to use the same numbers, but with a 2.4 speed bow (the current "ideal" speed for MM builds), the 7/49 build would provide a total DPS of 1441 - very similar to the BM values. What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).
Still not sure what I'm going to make of this as I get my hunter closer to raidworthiness, but I think it's clear that if my goal is max DPS and there are no changes to ranged weapon itemization (at least in the ranges attainable by my guild currently), BM will be the choice I'll need to make.
Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.
This is basically the conclusion I came to myself. This isn't saying you must be BM or you're gimping yourself. I think its quite gear dependent, player dependent, and has its ups and downs. But so far, I've been sweeping up the floor with sustained dps and its been quite a bit of fun.
Fundamentally I oppose BM. It's dependence on an auto attack, it's dependence on an often times unusable pet. It's as if you aren't really playing the game anymore, it's playing for you. I can't take pride in what I'm doing under those circumstances.
Don't ever play a warlock or SP or rogue or... wait... all classes depend on white damage, right? Locks and SP's throw up their DOTs and forget about them. The BM hunter's pet IS your DOT that you have to manage. Think of yourself as an affliction lock that has to maintain your DOT through pet mend and correct positioning / smart use. BM in raiding I've found isn't auto-pilot by any means. If you're not rotating shots correctly and managing your pet you'll be no better than that newb lolbm hunter standing in Org staring at you and asking stupid questions like "is that T7?" Take pride in whatever spec you have by showing the rest of the raid and yourself that you can squeeze every ounce of utility / dps out of your class.
04/30/07, 7:01 AM
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