I went out to Blasted Lands last night on the PTR with a fellow hunter, and we tested specs. Both of us specced all three specs and went to town on a servant down there. My personal best dps was my full rotation as 7/41/13 while also using my pet. The other hunter's best dps was with a 41/20/0 spec. The most noticeable thing was that though his dps did go down slightly, he was able sustain his mana very well when he tried using nothing but steady shot and kill command.
Either way, both our personal bests when we went all out, I was at about 1180 dps as marks and he was around 1150 dps as BM using a full rotation. Now, these servants have very low armor so these numbers are obviously slightly off, and they are obviously not boss mods so you can consider the pets' dps would go down a decent amount due to misses and glancing blows. All things considered though, I really feel that the trees will be equally viable with different strengths and weaknesses. On some fights, a BM hunter will be stronger, and on some fights, a Marks hunter will be more successful.
Oh, and btw, both of us sucked as survival. He was able to get about 750 agi with LR, I was a little lower than this. Either way, neither of us were impressed at all.
Anyone know of an addon that displays attack speed- like maybe on the Titan bar? Just so I don't have to have my char screen open to check it.
I know I could memorize all of the haste effects and be able to calculate my in-fight haste by monitoring my current buff effects, but it gets pretty complicated when you're factoring in IAotH, Rapid Fire, Grull Trinket, or Bloodlust/Heroism.
So can I spam KC with my hasted Auto-Arcane shots without messing stuff up?
Since this is correct, I think it's safe to conclude that under hasted conditions you need to stop using steady shot. I'd suggest the following general rule: If your hasted attack speed drops below 1.5 + latency, then stop using steady shot and use arcane/multi as they come off of cooldown.
Thoughts?
I disagree with the generality of this statement. If my auto shot is 1.5 seconds and my latency 100 ms (so basically SS would be considered a 1.6 second cast), I should cast steady if no other cooldowns are up. If I clip my auto shot by .1 seconds, I only lose .1 seconds, but I also gain an extra what 650 or so damage. If you consider in a fight your steady hits for about the same as an auto shot, it's like having a .1 second auto shot every now and then.
Now granted, it's hard to string in shots when you're shooting that fast, but if you're running your bars and you antiicipate your lag, it's a good move.
I went out to Blasted Lands last night on the PTR with a fellow hunter, and we tested specs. Both of us specced all three specs and went to town on a servant down there. My personal best dps was my full rotation as 7/41/13 while also using my pet. The other hunter's best dps was with a 41/20/0 spec. The most noticeable thing was that though his dps did go down slightly, he was able sustain his mana very well when he tried using nothing but steady shot and kill command.
Either way, both our personal bests when we went all out, I was at about 1180 dps as marks and he was around 1150 dps as BM using a full rotation. Now, these servants have very low armor so these numbers are obviously slightly off, and they are obviously not boss mods so you can consider the pets' dps would go down a decent amount due to misses and glancing blows. All things considered though, I really feel that the trees will be equally viable with different strengths and weaknesses. On some fights, a BM hunter will be stronger, and on some fights, a Marks hunter will be more successful.
Oh, and btw, both of us sucked as survival. He was able to get about 750 agi with LR, I was a little lower than this. Either way, neither of us were impressed at all.
For survival spec you are aiming at synergy with rogues/warriors/ ehn. shamans in your raid. High agility and high crit rate will keep EW up quite a bit up there, allowing you to buff other physical damage dealers in your raid. With raids becoming more friendly to melee dps it would be good to bring something else to the raid that can buff them from range.
Serpica,
I have G15 and LCD on it displays my char-sheet stats, but as far as mods go I don't know. This may be expensive proposition though.
Last edited by boomix : 05/01/07 at 10:49 AM.
Reason: Added more to the reply
Last night was pessimistic skydive in a foolish narcotic shell
Serpents Swiftness does not boost Steady Shot damage at all.
its a 1.5second cast and the GCD is 1.5 seconds - any Haste effect will speed up the cast time, but you still won't be able to fire another shot until the GCD is over.
it depends how you look at it. serpents swiftness allows you to get more steady shots in per minute b/c autoshot is closer to the GCD than without.
For survival spec you are aiming at synergy with rogues/warriors/ ehn. shamans in your raid. High agility and high crit rate will keep EW up quite a bit up there, allowing you to buff other physical damage dealers in your raid. With raids becoming more friendly to melee dps it would be good to bring something else to the raid that can buff them from range.
Serpica,
I have G15 and LCD on it displays my char-sheet stats, but as far as mods go I don't know. This may be expensive proposition though.
Agreed that EW is a pretty solid raid buff, and I haven't done the math to figure out the increase of raid dps compared to the loss of personal dps and party dps from TSA. It's also less important if you usually run in raids with only a few melee classes and hunters.
Yes Intermisson, you are correct there of course, and that is a benefit, although it is probably unique to BM as a MM hunter will be trying to slot 2 specials.
Unfortunately 500ms latency often stops the use of steady+special with a 2.52 speed post haste. Its possible, but the GCD then carries into the next auto-cycle, reducing that to only an instant ability possible without clipping, so not worth the steady+special in the first place.
I have G15 and LCD on it displays my char-sheet stats, but as far as mods go I don't know. This may be expensive proposition though.
Sweet. I already use a G15 but I've been ignoring the LCD because all I was able to get it to do was display my memory and CPS usage, which are fine. What do I need to do to get it to display my character info?
Sorry for the newb questions inc but..
1) How does +crit affect my pet?
2) How does +AP affect my pet?
(I think my pet gets a % of my AP, no?)
3) Does my pet get a % of my stats like agi and sta or what?
I disagree with the generality of this statement. If my auto shot is 1.5 seconds and my latency 100 ms (so basically SS would be considered a 1.6 second cast), I should cast steady if no other cooldowns are up. If I clip my auto shot by .1 seconds, I only lose .1 seconds, but I also gain an extra what 650 or so damage. If you consider in a fight your steady hits for about the same as an auto shot, it's like having a .1 second auto shot every now and then.
Now granted, it's hard to string in shots when you're shooting that fast, but if you're running your bars and you anticipate your lag, it's a good move.
I see your point and perhaps I was overly general with my statement. I consider 1.6 (latency-adjusted) to be on the border of using/not using steady shot; I hadn't really considered it because generally speaking I don't tend to get into the border area with my haste effects (and in the cases I do, it's definitely a judgment call because the rule doesn't really hold). More often than not either I'm clearly too fast for steady or clearly I'm slow enough to use it. Simple math time:
Speed with quiver/ss = 2.9/(1.15*1.20)=2.10
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.20)=1.83
Speed with quiver/ss/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.20*1.25)=1.68
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20)=1.46
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism(bloodlust) = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20*1.30)=1.12
Generally during raids I have 200-250 ms ping, putting me squarely between quiver/ss/quickshots and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus. I can say I have noticed clipping (not sure how much) of autoshots while under abacus w/o quickshots if I maintain my steady rotation - at that point I tend to switch to auto+arcane/multi (I haven't had issues with multi clipping my autoshots, although it appears others have - again, probably a judgment call). I do think as a general rule of thumb (with some flexibility) you can say that when attack speed < 1.5+latency you should switch to arcane/multi; clearly, however, there is a gray area that requires some judgment..
As a side note, I really really want to get a Dragonspine Trophy to test out (that + the full bouquet of haste effects easily pushes you into auto/arcane mode because you'll probably clip a shot with multi and definitely will with steady). The speed increase from that is pretty insane - when that procs if you manage to get abacus/quick shots going your attack speed drops like a brick (attack speed is around 0.89 with sunfury bow and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism/dragonspine - good luck getting those stars to align though).
Sweet. I already use a G15 but I've been ignoring the LCD because all I was able to get it to do was display my memory and CPS usage, which are fine. What do I need to do to get it to display my character info?
Latest drivers is what did it for me.
Last night was pessimistic skydive in a foolish narcotic shell
I see your point and perhaps I was overly general with my statement. I consider 1.6 (latency-adjusted) to be on the border of using/not using steady shot; I hadn't really considered it because generally speaking I don't tend to get into the border area with my haste effects (and in the cases I do, it's definitely a judgment call because the rule doesn't really hold). More often than not either I'm clearly too fast for steady or clearly I'm slow enough to use it. Simple math time:
Speed with quiver/ss = 2.9/(1.15*1.20)=2.10
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.20)=1.83
Speed with quiver/ss/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.20*1.25)=1.68
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20)=1.46
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism(bloodlust) = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20*1.30)=1.12
Generally during raids I have 200-250 ms ping, putting me squarely between quiver/ss/quickshots and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus. I can say I have noticed clipping (not sure how much) of autoshots while under abacus w/o quickshots if I maintain my steady rotation - at that point I tend to switch to auto+arcane/multi (I haven't had issues with multi clipping my autoshots, although it appears others have - again, probably a judgment call). I do think as a general rule of thumb (with some flexibility) you can say that when attack speed < 1.5+latency you should switch to arcane/multi; clearly, however, there is a gray area that requires some judgment..
As a side note, I really really want to get a Dragonspine Trophy to test out (that + the full bouquet of haste effects easily pushes you into auto/arcane mode because you'll probably clip a shot with multi and definitely will with steady). The speed increase from that is pretty insane - when that procs if you manage to get abacus/quick shots going your attack speed drops like a brick (attack speed is around 0.89 with sunfury bow and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism/dragonspine - good luck getting those stars to align though).
I knew I'd forget something. Even without considering rapid fire, however, more often than not you won't be in the judgment-call zone with respect to steady shot. If you put up rapid fire, you'll be faster than either abacus or quick shots (at about 1.5 speed with sunfury bow/ss/quiver). After lag I don't see the possibility of maintaining a full steady/auto rotation without clipping substantially. I guess my point is that while I may have oversimplified for certain cases, more often than not that rule will be true. Admittedly, however, there is a gray area (of varying size, as it is seems to me to be largely dependant on your latency) in which using steady is a judgment call.
You guys have missed a lot when you talk about cutting steady shot/specials out of your rotations. Unless you get down to pretty much unreachable speeds (or climb up to unplayable latency) it is always in your benefit to use steady/specials.
It breaks down to a pretty basic equation.
Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D
It is very, very hard to unbalance that equation to the right (the stop steady condition). Since steady and auto do similar damage, the delay added (D) would need to nearly exceed your time between auto shots (T). Rather you reach a state where haste effects aren't beneficial (but not detrimental, beyond tightening your timing).
Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.
I can't test this right now, but how does in-combat range weapon swapping affect the GCD and the autoshot timer?
i have been BM all this week with a 2.7 weapon and things work out really well with a steady/auto rotation. imp hawk procs make the rotation nice and tight. the only issue is rapid fire is too much and clips my autoshots.. so i was consider swapping to a 3.0 for the duration of rapid fire. can this be done fluently?
It can be done fluently, itemrack can do it automagically actually. You can modify the priest triggers that check for spirit tap. Shot timer resets on swap and global cool is triggered.
I played around with it for a bit but it threw me off too much to be useful.
You guys have missed a lot when you talk about cutting steady shot/specials out of your rotations. Unless you get down to pretty much unreachable speeds (or climb up to unplayable latency) it is always in your benefit to use steady/specials.
It breaks down to a pretty basic equation.
Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D
It is very, very hard to unbalance that equation to the right (the stop steady condition). Since steady and auto do similar damage, the delay added (D) would need to nearly exceed your time between auto shots (T). Rather you reach a state where haste effects aren't beneficial (but not detrimental, beyond tightening your timing).
Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.
Edit2: All haste effects means our quivers too!
A benefit of skipping specials for a period of time (time between arcanes) would allow for a tick of Spirit-based mana regen. I don't think that makes up for the lost DPS, but if you are waiting for the cooldown on your Fel Mana Potion anyway stacking these haste effects can be useful to maintain some emblence of DPS.
You guys have missed a lot when you talk about cutting steady shot/specials out of your rotations. Unless you get down to pretty much unreachable speeds (or climb up to unplayable latency) it is always in your benefit to use steady/specials.
It breaks down to a pretty basic equation.
Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D
It is very, very hard to unbalance that equation to the right (the stop steady condition). Since steady and auto do similar damage, the delay added (D) would need to nearly exceed your time between auto shots (T). Rather you reach a state where haste effects aren't beneficial (but not detrimental, beyond tightening your timing).
Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.
Edit2: All haste effects means our quivers too!
First, thanks for comments (and definitely I agree, they should make all haste adjust the GCD). Your equation is correct, but your inequality is not representative of the argument. The A/T term is only for autoshot damage / unit time - the argument is whether autoshot + steady shot are better than autoshot+arcane+multi. A more representative equation would be
Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D
Arcane Shot Damage - R
Multishot Damage - M
So if:
((A + S) / (T + D)) > (A / T) + M / 10 + R / 6 - keep firing steady shot
Assuming, of course, that your multi isn't delaying auto and you fire every time the shots come off of cooldown. Running a spreadsheet (using my auto/steady/arcane/multi numbers from a gruul kill as typical raid buffed values for damage and adjusting for crits) with that equation (where I am firing no steady shots at all in the second rotation) I see pretty much exactly what I would expect - around 1.5 speed you see a peak in the difference between auto/steady and auto/arcane/multi. Auto/arcane/multi starts to gain ground on auto/steady below 1.5 attack speed and passes auto/steady somewhere around 0.9 attack speed.
So my conclusion is that the general rule I posited was a half-truth; there is a number around which you should consider changing rotation, but it was lower than I expected - around 0.9 in my case. It will vary depending on your average shot hits. I'm going to work on a comparison of these two rotations with one that I think people are more likely to use - one using steady/auto/arcane/multi on priority.
Sorry for the newb questions inc but..
1) How does +crit affect my pet?
2) How does +AP affect my pet?
(I think my pet gets a % of my AP, no?)
3) Does my pet get a % of my stats like agi and sta or what?
# Pets get about 30% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
# Pets get about 35% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
# Pets get about 22% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
# Pets get about 12.5% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
# Pets get about 40% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.
I believe Wind Serpents only get 6% of your RAP added to their spell damage now. I'm not sure if that's a rule specific to wind serpents and Lightning Breath, or if they updated it so all pets now get only 6% to spell damage.
+crit affects your pet by fueling more Kill Commands and more Focus (if you have GftT) for specials.
I believe Wind Serpents only get 6% of your RAP added to their spell damage now. I'm not sure if that's a rule specific to wind serpents and Lightning Breath, or if they updated it so all pets now get only 6% to spell damage.
It's actually a lot less than that.
It used to be close to that because:
Pet got 12.5% added to their spelldmg
Lightning Breath is an instant spell, so it only receives about 43% of spelldmg.
43% of 12.5% is 5.375% of your RAP that got added directly onto LB.
BUT, with the lightning breath nerf, Lightning breath is only receiving about 5% of spelldmg.
So now you get about 5% of 12.5%, which is only .625% of your RAP added directly to LB.
It might as well not scale at all after the nerf.
You're still technically correct that pets recieve 12.5% of our RAP added to their spelldmg, but each spell receives a different percentage of that...
Percentages of Percentages.. no wonder our scaling is so bad.
If I am in a full burn rotation I never stop using specials. They simply substitute for the steady that would have been there. Although as BM it only gives me about 30 more DPS.
Everything is limited by the GC under extreme haste conditions. Shots don't slot evenly but you should almost never stop trying to fill a shot whenever possible, steady, multi, arcane, whatever your build/mana demands/cool downs require.
It used to be close to that because:
Pet got 12.5% added to their spelldmg
Lightning Breath is an instant spell, so it only receives about 43% of spelldmg.
43% of 12.5% is 5.375% of your RAP that got added directly onto LB.
BUT, with the lightning breath nerf, Lightning breath is only receiving about 5% of spelldmg.
So now you get about 5% of 12.5%, which is only .625% of your RAP added directly to LB.
It might as well not scale at all after the nerf.
You're still technically correct that pets recieve 12.5% of our RAP added to their spelldmg, but each spell receives a different percentage of that...
Percentages of Percentages.. no wonder our scaling is so bad.
Have we confirmed this anywhere? I've been dying to find exact ratios to use, since I'm on the fence between Wind Serpent and Cat. How much LB scales (where Claw/Bite don't at all) would make the difference.
Also, is there any other pet ability that gets +spell damage?
Might as well be 0%, any gains are more than canceled out by the stupid AI. Wait patiently for 2.1 and your 70 ravager.
Edit: Since it is hard to know how rounding factored in to this I would go with 3% AP to spell damage. The nerf was arbitrary, I can't imagine they picked a strange number like 2.88%
05/01/07, 10:45 AM
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