Your damage on Vasjh is really dependent on how many elementals spawn on your side. If you're not getting a lot then you won't be doing much damage. If you're grouped with someone else you'll do even less. I've done the whole fight solo killing bats and the entire west side of elementals. Gear obviously helps but you only really need t5 to do it.

For Leotheras I'm always 1 or 2 on damage done. It's the only fight I take blessing of salv on (besides stage2/3 reliquary).

I am curious on what you guys think are the best stats for BM hunters to get the most DPS out of you and your pet. My guild says attack power what do you guys think?

AP is the only direct way of increasing your pet's dps. Crit will increase it because you get more focus from GFTT but it's always going to be agility (ap/crit) that you want (and hit for yourself). I could be wrong though.

I suggest you read this entire thread from start to finish. It's full of discussion on the basics. But for the most part, the math says 1 agility is superior to 2 attack power. Also check out Cheeky's spreadsheet.

They have yet to beat Vashj yet i doubt he can do a quadrant solo. We have SSC on farm and we still use 2 per quad. And being BM sucks for killing bats. The lack of extra range really hurt there.

It is still possible to integrate Hawkeye into a BM build. Try 46/12/3 or 41/17/3.

Yes, it's definitely a damage sacrifice. When I ran the numbers 5/5 Mortal Shots was around +8% DPS for me - definitely a huge benefit that should not be sacrificed lightly. However, on several encounters (ex. Vashj, Leotheras, Archimonde, Void Reaver, Illidan, Illidari Council) the extra range allows you to do things which may be considered more valuable than 8% DPS. In most cases this is taking less damage via giving your raid more breathing room when it comes to spreading out. This can definitely be compensated for with strategy, but that is a trade-off, not a clear-cut decision.

Range is also useful on a number of trash pulls.

Since it was my first time seeing her, I got assigned to the easiest quadrant with a cat druid.

I think I spent more time idling than dps, which was pretty noob of me. The thing is when I tried to help kill the elites/striders, they were always out of range or on the other side of the platform. I did not want to risk missing a tainted because I abandoned my post to help dps.

Maybe I should ask to handle a more populated quadrant the next time?

Could you elaborate on how you manage that?

I missed a lot of dps time on him during WWs and transitions, (my raid asks us not to dps him during WWs, just run away). It takes me 20+ seconds to kill my ID, so I could improve on that, too.

I guess it's just a matter of experience + skill?

So, prior to saying anything else, I apologize for not reading every post that was posted before my own.

Now then...
I've been BM through Kara, all that junk, just following in the footsteps of other hunters who have found the spec to be no less than awesome. I learned SSC as BM, topping damage meters on almost every fight, Hydross, (not lurker), Morogrim, Leo, ectectect, through vashj. Once TK rolled around, however, pets became utter trash until Kael himself - and I was able to keep myself at a respectable 2-5.

But Hunter Itemization is crap, we know this through and through, and Hunters aren't meant to be the top damage class. Now we're in Hyjal, 4/5, and BT with 4/9, and I cant break past being Number 5 - Granted, our guild has a prejeduce against hunters, so I get often coupled with warlocks, with no chance of a shadow priest or a feral druid. I don't mind this.

I switched to surv because of the added raid dps I can just help with - it's a synergy if you will. Survival not only boosts the dps of myself - because honestly, with ~800 agi unbuffed, depending on what i'm wearing, I can lay waste to almost any other class cept the warlocks themself. However, I burn through pots faster than an Arcane Mage, mainly because I do not recieve a shadow priest.

I say this all because... BM is very VERY merciful - meaning you can preform well without the gear - and you preform even better with the gear. But as with most things, there is a limit! As with the differentiate in calculus, BM has a limit - it's called gear. Once the gear gets so good, I believe it's up to the hunter to learn another spec, play another way... not because Blizz WANTED it, but because it's what works. Marks is great, don't get me wrong, but BM and Surv offer more to the raid as a whole...

In the end, BM hunters are great, very good, and most top guild hunters are still BM because honestly? It kicks ass. It's easy to do, no real hard work needed. I personally think that I can find a way to make surv just as good - If i cant, it's right back to BM for me.

With regards to Vashj - it sounds to me like your guild is assigning too many people to quadrant duty, you only really need 5 or maybe 6 people on the stairs, diverting a little strider dps to help mop up if someone has to play catchup after killing a tainted.
If I ever find myself with a lack of something to do in phase 2 i'll first look to help the two people on sectors around me and if there's nothing within a reasonable range, i'll jump up top to see if there's a strider about, you are correct in saying you should never stray far from your sector, missing a tainted amounts to a way bigger waste of dps than not dpsing a Naga on the far side for a couple of seconds before you have to rush back.
One other tip which is of use is that a Pet can *easily* solo an enchanted elemental while wrathed, which gives you much more breathing room and allows you to fight 2 simultaneously if you're in danger of getting overrun

Leotheras - two things on Leo - firstly make sure that your hunters are misdirecting to the tank on the key transitions, we always try and have a Misdirect ready for every time he exits demon form and every time he exits a whirlwind, that allows for much greater hunter dps as it goes some way to alleviating your early threatcap as well as allowing greater dps for others as well.
In addition, of all the classes, you can stay dpsing closer to the transitions than anyone else, Locks have to stop dots early so they don't go over transitions, mages have to stop at least 4 seconds before because of ignites, rogues have to run out early for whirlwinds and suchlike whereas all you have to account for is travel time of arrows, which is minimal, so watch the timers like a hawk and dps up to the last possible second, you always have your get out of jail free card(FD) if you think an arrow may be hitting after the transition.

A word on pets - the only thing which will kill your pet on Leo is Whirlwind, so all you need to do is find him a quiet spot right in the corner behind you where Leo will never go, put him on stay there, keep him on Leo full time and only retract him just before every whirlwind, sending him straight back in as soon as he is tanked.

Even at low levels of gear, with a balanced raid Survival spec will contribute more raid DPS (not to be confused with personal DPS). A significant part of that contribution comes from Expose Weakness; if you don't have a Survival hunter at every raid then spec'cing Survival is the right decision. However, since EW doesn't stack, having 2 Survival hunters in a raid is a poor choice. That's where the BM hunters come in.

My guild is currently in Hyjal and Black Temple ( 2/5 and 4/9 right now ) and i have picked up 2 haste items currently and want to gather more. What i am wondering is at what point does it become too fast? If i can collect haste gear that would put MM speed near BM speed would the switch that i want to make into a reality for raiding or just a dream?

Currently my paper doll attack speed is down to 1.97 and my DPS has improved alot. I have looked at spreadsheets and other forums and would just like to throw this question out for the theorycrafters out there that would please offer me some of the information they can come up with this.

The Armory

That is my current Gear and any help would be great. Currently i am using a macro for Steady Shot / Auto Shot and i weave in MS and AS when the mana permits. Macro also uses KC when it is up.


Thank you in advance,

Jokerz

You're using a 1:1 shot rotation so your limiting factor is the 1.5 global cooldown. I'm also assuming you are using IAotH. Your attack speed should never drop below 1.5s + your latency, even when IAotH is active. If it's getting below that it's time to equip fewer haste items (or drop IAotH).

Keep in mind after the physical haste nerf in 2.2 you'll need more haste to achieve your current 2.1 attack speed.

That is what i was thinking with the 1:1 macro and getting to around 1.5 + Lag. Thanks for the verification.

And yea with the upcoming haste nerf i am hoping to stack up as much haste as i can to get MM down to the 2.1 range and see how it works.

Any thoughts on that anyone? Would it be possiable with Hyjal / BT gear to get the haste to pull it off and still have good stats for raiding?


Edit : also is the armor ignore off pieces ( trash drop neck and so forth ) worth looking into as a BM hunter over the other pieces? Or should i make the rogues happy and not bid on the Armor Ignore items?

Wearing every piece of haste gear avaialble to you with a 2.9 speed bow will get you to ~2.14/1.86 (IAotH) speed as Marks now, and post-patch it will be ~2.25/1.96 speed. So unless new haste gear is released in the patch, I don't see this as feasible. There would simply be too much dead time.

I was just trying to figure out my values for the lootzor site, and I stumbled upon something odd. I used Cheeky's spreadsheet with all my current stuff (equipment, raid buffs, talents, etc.). I removed my melee weapon (Legacy) and instead created a custom weapon, first with 10 agility, then with 10 RAP, and so on. After each change I noted my DPS increase, then divided this value by ten to derive the DPS increase per point. What was surprising was that agility and crit rating both came out ahead of hit, even though I wasn't capped. This goes against what I had previously supposed, that hit (until capped) > agility > CR. Is my test flawed? Or are others finding this to be the case as well, and I just didn't get the memo.

For the record, my values came out to this (hunter + pet)
1 agi = .68 dps
1 RAP = .359
1 HR = .556
1 CR = .579

These numbers are quite reasonable. Mine are (for a BM build, and using the 2.2 haste ratings, and fully raid-buffed, and assuming I am not capped)

1 agi = .851 dps
1 atk = .411 dps
1 crit = .655 dps
1 hit = .653 dps
1 haste = .852 dps

They are very dependant upon current gear, talents and shot rotation. I believe the math is correct though, but I'd be interested in learning if you find a flaw in it somewhere.

Pets get 0 benefit from your +hit, but they do get additional Focus/KC from your crit. That is accounted for, and may swing the balance a bit.

Using my gear and your test (replacing [Monster - Sonic Spear] drops me 24 below the hit cap.)
+AP - 0.356
+Agi - 0.708
+crit - 0.636
+hit - 0.578

Those numbers are all without any buffs. Blessing of Kings will help Agility more than the others.

The last thing I was doing is questioning your math. You 'da man. I just always remember hearing that Hit is king. I don't know if you recall that hunter AEP thread that was floating around a few months back. The conclusion was: hit (13), agi (10), crit (8), AP (6). The only things most people were debating was the value of intellect and MP5. Well after some calculations, it looks like hit isn't as highly valued as I'd previously been lead to believe.

I did a similar thing, rather I set a custom offhand and incremented stats there.

1 Agi = 0.74 (0.63 personal, 0.11 pet)
1 AP = 0.37 (0.31 personal, 0.06 pet)
1 Crit = 0.65 (0.58 personal, 0.07 pet)
1 Hit = 0.49 (0.49 personal, 0.00 pet)
1 Haste = 1.22 (1.18 personal, 0.04 pet)

Edit: Using 2.2 haste values, haste drops to 0.81

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but wouldn't it be very easy to add this kind of calculation to the spreadsheet on a separate tab? You could establish ratios for each of the primary stat values to each other quite easily.

It's nowhere near as easy as you'd think. There are hundreds of calculations performed to generate the DPS numbers. There is no way in hell I'm replicating them X times for every stat that could effect DPS. The maintenance would become a nightmare.

Look at all the math just in the Shot Rotation tab, factoring in the damage from each shot based on previous shot results (Talon of Alar, etc.) I wouldn't even want to rewrite this monster if I suddenly lost all copies of it, there's probably 1,000 hours of work in it right now. I'd just come up with something much, much simpler.