We all know that Beast Mastery is the king of DPS right now but there is a definite desire for Survival hunters since many of us are taking the sacrificial route for the benefit of our raid's overall DPS, (or a change of pace), or simply are interested in knowing if they should make the switch to this spec for raiding at all.
From testing Survival post 2.1 I've come to some conclusions from a few raids in SSC and TK.
971 DPS sustained over a 10 minute period with an average 40% crit rate, (lotp was present for 1/2 the fight roughly). While I do agree that BM is probably the higher DPS on a single target if the pet can remain alive and attacking for the duration, the MM spec does not seem to have the umph that it used to after this patch. According to the logs, Survival gave me (Mana) 6,750 returned from Thrill of the Hunt in that Hydross fight which is the equivalent of 2 fel mana potions for free, not to mention the 200~ AP buff to the entire raid from Expose weakness being up almost 100% of the time.
My personal issue is spec as I can't warrant getting master tactician in its current form. I believe its not worth it over the benefit of improved aspect of the hawk, (maybe this is ignorance). My question is for the survival hunters here or those that are more prone to theorycrafting as to which talent can provide higher dps output, (has anyone crunched the numbers comparing the two talents)? I believe there is a crit threshold once you hit roughly 33% unbuffed where more isn't necessarily better. The only thing I really see as the most valuable aspect of this tree is EW and ToTH. My experiences with Readiness have been somewhat lackluster.
I believe there's already a thread discussion survival-specced hunters, along with several of the already-existing threads containing specks of discussion here and there. You might want to post this in one of those, instead of creating a brand new one. Survival's damage is always going to be contingent upon the amount of physical DPS present in the raid, but it is pretty apparent that the increased DPS from the other people, along with the increase in your own DPS, at least equals the damage loss from not being Marksmanship specced. It probably surpasses it. In addition to its superior damage, BM also gives its party a 3% damage increase, regardless of damage type. That can easily add an additional 100-150 DPS to the raid as a whole, depending upon the composition of your group.
That being said, Master Tactician is a waste of points. Your best bet is to put enough points (36) into Survival to get Expose Weakness, then leaving the tree entirely for Mortal Shots. Those last five points would be up to your discretion, although most would probably dump them in IAotH for "pure DPS" reasons. You could very easily justify spending those points to get Scatter Shot, Barrage, and Wyvern Sting instead. That's what I would do. =P
"User is a tremendous douchenozzel"
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Yeah, but is 5 points in IAotH > 5 in MT? I don't think anyone's covered this explicitly. I believe the math's been done awhile back to show that with the weapons most people use, MT is equivalent to just over 5% crit.
Right now, if you opt to max TotH and EW instead of getting focused fire, it looks like you've got three choices:
utility(wyvern, barrage or resourcefulness, ss), damage(5/5 IAotH), or damage option 2(5/5 MT).
Since crit %'s for survival hunters seem to vary quite a bit, and crit becomes less useful as your crit rate increase(as I understand it), it'd be nice to figure out if ~5% crit will be better than IAotH at 30%, and if it still will when you're at 45% crit.
Also, just came up with an idea. For those of you that don't care for TotH because you have the consumables and party comp to cover your mana needs, what about a 29/32 build?
It gives 4% from RWS, Barrage, and Scatter shot, vs say a 7/20/34 or 7/21/33 build which will have Focused Fire(2% + KC bonus) and IAotH. To me at least, it seems like a posibly alternative, especially if IAotH is messing up your rotation at all.
Thats what I'm wondering. If the crit rate is at 35 unbuffed and guessing 40% or so fully buffed / potted, then isn't MT almost totally useless? Then would the IAoTH be a greater dps boost than to pop points into barrage etc? And Gore, I just found thread [Hunter] The Survivor, but sadly there is no real information in there that breaks down the numbers.
Thats what I'm wondering. If the crit rate is at 35 unbuffed and guessing 40% or so fully buffed / potted, then isn't MT almost totally useless? Then would the IAoTH be a greater dps boost than to pop points into barrage etc? And Gore, I just found thread [Hunter] The Survivor, but sadly there is no real information in there that breaks down the numbers.
No numbers there yet, but hopefully that thread will blossom and bear the delicious fruit of theory. Now, if only people could back up anecdotal evidence with empirical and theoretical evidence in that thread, we'd be set.
No numbers there yet, but hopefully that thread will blossom and bear the delicious fruit of theory. Now, if only people could back up anecdotal evidence with empirical and theoretical evidence in that thread, we'd be set.
There's too much emo in that thread. Its mostly back and forth arguing at one person's opinion over another without any proof to back up claims. What I would like to see is some intelligent convo on optimizing survival spec and gear while comparing the end tier MT talent vs other choices, etc. Hopefully the delicious fruit of that theory will show itself.
Here is Guyman's post on Survival and his thoughts on it:
Hey Howitzer, I've been reading your various posts about both BM and Survival in 2.1. I was actually survival before 2.1 and I was able to do pretty solid DPS. I don't exactly have charts readily available, but I was around 700+ dps on Gruul using a 0/20/41 build. My gear was sub-par, mostly heavy-agi blues and a few epics. Unbuffed I was around 30-31% crit.
In my opinion, I believe that once you reach an unbuffed level of 34-35% crit, improved hawk surpasses Master Tactician. Putting out more shots with that level of critting is going to be more effective than a few seconds of virtually guaranteed crits. I'm not sure myself if Master Tactician is really able to compare to improved aspect of the hawk, recently checking your armory, I see that you've respecced into 0/21/40 so hopefully you can verify that for yourself.
Also, do you think 3 points in expose weakness is really necessary? I was thinking of just 2 points for my survival build, given the duration of the debuff, I figured, there would be a pretty good chance of reproccing it.
From what I've seen so far taking on MT 4/5 at 35% unbuffed crit it seems like a waste. One other person suggested possibly investing 3/3 barrage and Wyvern sting which seems nice but not sure if it will will surpass IAoTH. Guyman is leaning towards what I am assuming in that a 1st tier BM talent surpasses the usefulness of MT that is so deep into the survival tree. The other thing that he brings up is investing all 3 points into EW. Do you need a solid 45% crit to have EW up 100% of the time with only 2/3 EW?
Do you need a solid 45% crit to have EW up 100% of the time with only 2/3 EW?
Without 100% crit Expose Weakness will never be up 100% of the time, regardless of talent points invested.
Other than that...
Uptime = 1 - (ChanceNotToProc^Attacks)
Uptime is a value between 0 and 1, ratio of how much it's up. Uptime*100 = Uptime in percentage.
Attacks = Number of attacks you make in 7 seconds. Most likely this is not an integer, i.e. you might have 5.5 shots each 7 second cycle. If so, averaging out the uptime for 5 and 6 should be a close enough approximation.
With 3/3, ChanceNotToProc = 1-Crit%
With 2/3, ChanceNotToProc = 1-( (Crit%)*(2/3) )
With 1/3, ChanceNotToProc = 1-( (Crit%)*(1/3) )
Some superfluous parenthesis there, but it's to avoid confusion. This, along with a rough knowledge of how often you attack, should be sufficient for determining your average uptime.
Last edited by Lactose : 05/26/07 at 1:34 PM.
Reason: Defined 'Attacks'
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
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In response to questions specifically related to iAotH, keep in mind that haste won't be an easy thing to model with Survival or Marks. Even with a relatively slow bow (say the 3.0 bow from Vashj), when iAotH procs you've got a 3.0/(1.15*1.15)=2.27 attack speed. At this speed you probably will be forced to change your rotation, meaning you can't simply model iAotH as a uptime percentage based haste increase (i.e. increase base damage by a percentage equal to the percentage haste). Given that Survival and Marks are probably using an on-availability 2 special per auto rotation, this complicates matters.
What I would suggest doing is determine the average dps for each of the two rotations (a rotation for use with quick shots and for use without quick shots) and then do a weighted average of the two based on uptime for QS. This won't be perfect, as it would be exceptionally difficult to have a smooth transition between the two without dropping a shot, but this would give you a theoretical maximum dps (i.e. the dps if you were a cyborg who never screwed up transitioning from one rotation to another). I don't have time this weekend to jump into much math, but Lactose's post gives the basic equation for uptime (which can be modified to work with iAotH very easily).
I'm not sure this had been covered. Tell me if it has. Between hunters, rogues, warriors, shamans, druids etc we say 9 physical DPS in a raid. Count the pets and tanks as another 1, so 10 Physical DPS.
So every point of agi on a SV hunter (1.25 agi with BoK and LR) becomes:
1.3 AP on the Hunter
3.125 AP on the group
So:
1 agi gives 4.425 AP
2 AP gives 2.08 AP (with survival instincts)
For the same item point cost.
That's not even counting better crit on the Warden's. Gear choices are hard to make general statements about. But some quick math show to me that for raiding a lvl 62 rep reward is better than the first tier raiding set. It's pretty hard to justify sacrificing almost any agi for any other stat when looking at raid-wide DPS.
Be wary of using situational raid composition buffs to justify gear choices. They are a consideration, yes, but not the sole determinant of gear worth (particularly as raid composition tends to be highly variable for many guilds). Personal dps is likely more important than 2.5 AP worth of situational raid buffs, in my opinion, but that's just me (boundary cases like that are really judgment calls, IMO, but if you can prove it with math that it's not be my guest). Frankly, if you make a gear decision based on raid composition you may find yourself in a bad position (if you're having a physical dps-light raid, your contributed dps has plummeted with the Warden's versus T4, in the scenario presented).
For example, if we used raid buffed damage as justification for raid spots, there'd be little reason not to take only shadow priests and warlocks.
I'm not sure this had been covered. Tell me if it has. Between hunters, rogues, warriors, shamans, druids etc we say 9 physical DPS in a raid. Count the pets and tanks as another 1, so 10 Physical DPS.
So every point of agi on a SV hunter (1.25 agi with BoK and LR) becomes:
1.3 AP on the Hunter
3.125 AP on the group
So:
1 agi gives 4.425 AP
2 AP gives 2.08 AP (with survival instincts)
For the same item point cost.
That's not even counting better crit on the Warden's. Gear choices are hard to make general statements about. But some quick math show to me that for raiding a lvl 62 rep reward is better than the first tier raiding set. It's pretty hard to justify sacrificing almost any agi for any other stat when looking at raid-wide DPS.
Add crit value of agi for hunter.
And take EW uptime in consideration.
Third thing... gain of DPS from this AP varies among classes.
Forth tanks generate more threat, allowing for more dps.
Interesting thing to think about. (goes to wowhead, searching fro blue leather)
Yes some blues are far better than some epics. Im using BP of Rapid Striking... 68lvl AH item for 30g. And intended upgrade is Hydoss drop (ranger general) + minor hit rating changes in other gear. Mmm AH vs SSC.
And like Colonel said. Its situational, we had 2 rogues, 1 hunter and 4tanks on morgrim 2 weeks ago :/
I don't want to poo-poo the approach of looking at total dps added, but if you're going to go that route to examine the contributions of one person, you have to do the whole raid (in my opinion, otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples when making composition decisions). I would just advise you to take either a conservative approach and assume minimum physical dps (such that you can always expect to add at least that much dps to the raid) or look at a spectrum of possible compositions and then determine the best way to average that (the arithmetic mean might not be the best measure to use, since the AP from EW scales linearly with number of physical dpsers, but the general concept might still be valid if you used some other measure).
I'm not sure why you guys are running with little melee, but I guess its a recuitment issue. Since the changes, rogues are worth 3 spots. So is an enhancement shaman and on some fights a dps warrior.
I'd say its largely a matter of group composition aswell.
The perfect melee groups is Dps warr, rogue, rogue, enh shaman, feral druid.
If you take much more than that as melee dps you'll have one of them sitting out of that group.
So while they might be worth more after the changes it just isnt that clearcut.
Sorry for a slight derail.
I'm not so much concerned with WHY you'd be light on melee, just pointing out that when you have variable group composition you'll have issues with the model presented. Sometimes you just can't get everyone together and you are heavy on casters (scheduling, w/e). Totally didn't mean to derail this thread, but you have to be careful when you assume that you'll have X players that you're adding AP to, because that is something outside of your control.
personally i'm not sure a survival hunter will be a great benefit, unless you have a lot of melee in the raid.
i'd prefer a BM hunter really. but that can just be a matter of opinion.
Its kinda funny hearing that from a rogue. I'd figure you'd prefer an extra 200~ AP on your target compared to what a BM hunter offers which is nothing if you aren't grouped with him. I think Survival is pretty damn gear dependent and isn't going to shine unless you've done your homework.
I'm not sure why you guys are running with little melee, but I guess its a recuitment issue. Since the changes, rogues are worth 3 spots. So is an enhancement shaman and on some fights a dps warrior.
Gruul can be tricky if you have cave-ins on the melee. it also adds extra risk for the tank.
they produce loads of damage, but some of our mages can keep up fairly well.
its very situational though. but at least for gruul,, i prefer to keep the amount of melee to a minimum.
personally i'm not sure a survival hunter will be a great benefit, unless you have a lot of melee in the raid.
i'd prefer a BM hunter really. but that can just be a matter of opinion.
Originally Posted by Superkaj
I'd say its largely a matter of group composition aswell.
The perfect melee groups is Dps warr, rogue, rogue, enh shaman, feral druid.
If you take much more than that as melee dps you'll have one of them sitting out of that group.
So while they might be worth more after the changes it just isnt that clearcut.
Sorry for a slight derail.
Generally you wont have more than 1 "melee" group for dps.
and 1 with the tanks, offtanks, a warlock for imp buff, and some extras.
Originally Posted by Howitzer
Its kinda funny hearing that from a rogue. I'd figure you'd prefer an extra 200~ AP on your target compared to what a BM hunter offers which is nothing if you aren't grouped with him. I think Survival is pretty damn gear dependent and isn't going to shine unless you've done your homework.
i Don't think you'll hear that from many rogues, but i have a lvl 70 hunter as well.
The new 2.1 buff to Hunter's Mark gives a nice ammount of AP to the raid to begin with.
But, what kind of gear are we looking at for +-200 AP, and with what kind of uptime for that buff? your gear + agi totem, perhaps a better melee weapon, myeh, i'd say 200 is definitely possible, perhaps a bit more even.
i don't think your average ex. MM hunter will have anywhere near enough Agi gear to get such a large turnout from most epics though. but it might be worth considering on a longer term.
As i tend to lead raids i usually look for sticking BM hunters with a few mages + shadowpriest, or another BM hunter. 5x 2% damage to our top damage dealers generally adds more damage than (at this time) 100-150 AP to the melee classes would. it's very situational / how many melee are in the raid to begin with though.
Ferocious inspiration stacks with other hunters in the group, while find weakness only takes the highest one.. but 1 hunter should be plenty with that talent spec.
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/03/07 at 10:09 AM.
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i Don't think you'll hear that from many rogues, but i have a lvl 70 hunter as well.
The new 2.1 buff to Hunter's Mark gives a nice ammount of AP to the raid to begin with.
But, what kind of gear are we looking at for +-200 AP, and with what kind of uptime for that buff? your gear + agi totem, perhaps a better melee weapon, myeh, i'd say 200 is definitely possible, perhaps a bit more even.
i don't think your average ex. MM hunter will have anywhere near enough Agi gear to get such a large turnout from most epics though. but it might be worth considering on a longer term.
As i tend to lead raids i usually look for sticking BM hunters with a few mages + shadowpriest, or another BM hunter. 5x 2% damage to our top damage dealers generally adds more damage than (at this time) 100-150 AP to the melee classes would. it's very situational / how many melee are in the raid to begin with though.
Ferocious inspiration stacks with other hunters in the group, while find weakness only takes the highest one.. but 1 hunter should be plenty with that talent spec.
I hate to break it to you, mate, but the 2.1 hunters mark buff is a buff only to the hunter and not the raid. Putting 5 points in improved Hunter's mark still only gives 110 ap to the raid, but stacking the mark with shots gives up to 440 "RAP" to "the huntard" and any other Hunters shooting the target. Would be nice though if it wasn't that way right? =-)
Yes, expose weakness doesn't stack like ferocious inspriration does. Technically, if you had 5 BM hunters in a group that would be some pretty sick damage output. Too bad 40 man raids are gone gone forever and you'll be hard pressed to ever see 5 hunters in a 25 man unless you're raiding Hogger. 200 AP from EW buff is very easy if you're 800 agi raid buffed which is very possible and easy to get.
I hate to break it to you, mate, but the 2.1 hunters mark buff is a buff only to the hunter and not the raid. Putting 5 points in improved Hunter's mark still only gives 110 ap to the raid, but stacking the mark with shots gives up to 440 "RAP" to "you" and any other Hunters shooting the target. Would be nice though if it wasn't that way right? eheh
Ah damn shame. i see it now.
"base" attack power.
too bad, lol
Last edited by Zurgat : 12/03/07 at 10:09 AM.
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i suppose my last and biggest question is.. at what point should you stop stacking agi or what would a solid blance of agi / ap / crit be for a survival hunter? whats the best ration of "this" to "that" for dps?
So my question is, is there any viable reason to stay marksman now (2.1) and if so where is a good place I could start with looking to balance my gems / enchants? (PVE DPS)
I would LIKE to stay marksman, if it is still a max dps spec, or can be. Not having to worry about my pet in Magtheridon raids is a HUGE relief considering all the tasks I'm put on.
So my question is, is there any viable reason to stay marksman now (2.1) and if so where is a good place I could start with looking to balance my gems / enchants? (PVE DPS)
I would LIKE to stay marksman, if it is still a max dps spec, or can be. Not having to worry about my pet in Magtheridon raids is a HUGE relief considering all the tasks I'm put on.
Is there anything that can save my build from the too-little crit woes?
Please make sure you remove the "#" from any armory links in the future, most browsers can not interpet the link otherwise.
If you need more crit,
- you can put 35 agi on your spear,
- 15 agi on gloves.
- get a +28 crit rating scope on your bow.
- cat's swiftness or +12 agi on boots.
- use bladefist's breadth instead of the poison vial.
- replace the violet signet with garona's once it drops for you.
- improve your aldor reputation for better shoulder enchant.
that should get you above 20% at the very least.
You seem to have very high "hit" rating, is this intentional?
i was always under the impression that hunters only need about 8-9% hit, in order to never miss.
(like 0.01%)
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MM does slightly more DPS than it did before 2.1. Survival and BM both got larger bumps. BM will handily out damage MM. All that adds up to going BM if you want to focus on your personal DPS or lack the agility gear to do Survival properly.
Regarding gems:
8 agility gems have been and will continue to be the best gems for any spec. Multiple people have posted multiple times in multiple threads about this.
Edit:
As the poster above me said, you have WAY too much hit rating. If you are determined to max out your hit rating you only need enough for 8.6%. My personal opinion is that most hunters over value hit rating, I prefer crit.
05/26/07, 12:45 AM
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