Jaimaster

This thread points towards a simple conclusion -

For MM / SV, significant haste is not a +damage stat - it is a mana efficiency stat.

Where a 1:1.5 rotation is an incredible mana burn, something that requires (no, demands) a shadow priest and mana pots to sustain, 15% hasted 1:1 is around half the mana cost over time...

So in essence, the debate between 7/20/33 +1 (variants) and 0/20/40 +1 really comes down to mana sustainability, or more pointedly "do you have a shadow priest, or not?" Going 1:1 while IAOTH is procced is somewhat better mana efficiency than 2/3 ToTH (at Kara/Gruul gearing levels). This also points to the DSP being more of a warped MP5 trinket for MM/SV in a raid DPS situation. 5/20/36 would be the most "mana efficient" EW spec we have, following this logic to its conclusion.

For Female Tauren,

1:1 is exactly what you said - auto-steady

1:1.5 might be best expressed as this -

auto-steady-special
auto-steady

(repeat)

The delimiter in the 1:1.5 rotation (and why it is not a 1:2 rotation) is the GCD. You cannot sustain auto-steady-special indefinantly as the GCD will block your attempt to cast a steady shot immediately after the second auto has fired in the above listed example. You still have time to cast the steady before clipping the third auto shot, but not enough time to cast steady then fire another special.

 

senior toasted bread

1:1.5 is a steady/auto rotation with an arcane or multi thrown in after every other steady. So steady->arcane->auto->steady->auto, thats 2 auto/3 special. 2/3=1/1.5

Edit: Jaimaster beat me to it.

 

◊ Lactose

Example 1:1 rotation
Auto Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Multi-Shot
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Auto Shot
...
Basically 1 special in-between each Auto Shot.

Example 1:1.5 rotation
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Arcane Shot
Auto Shot
Multi-Shot
Auto Shot

Basically, trying to fit e.g. Steady + 1 instant cast between 2 Auto Shots, then 1 special before the next. Trying to fit in 2 specials between each Auto Shot wouldn't be possible due to global cooldown forcing delaying Auto Shots. The 1:1.5 rotation would probably make more sense to some if it were named the 2:3 rotation.

EDIT: Curse you, Jaimaster!

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Female Tauren

Totally forgot about the GCD there, thanks all.

 

Muzelf

Long time reader, first time poster...

I'm the token survival hunter in my guild. My DPS is lower than the BM hunters in the guild. I'm roughly 700-800 depending, whereas the others can do up to 1K

No complaints, I figure the AP others gain from me makes up for my lower DPS, and survival is fun.

What i would like to know, has anyone done figures with a raid buffed survival hunter with tsunami, and hourglass - and a high crit rate. With a LotP and other standard buffs, I am roughly 48-50% crit. Would love to hear what feedback i can get on this... just trying to maximise my raid dps.

currently im running hourglass with dragonspine.... Proc rate on DST is crazy according to wws, but im sure with high crit, the tsunami is going to go off.

EDIT. Grammar fixed. Posted in wrong section.

 

Nervouso

What rotation do you guys use as survival? I've been using the auto + steady + KC rotation, wich i know is very effective for BM hunters, but i didn't find anything about a survival rotation.

 

Monco

Trinkets with/without internal cooldowns

Tsunami Talisman has a 45s internal cooldown. Later in the thread there is some discussion about Tsunami Talisman and Hourglass of the Unraveller that suggests that they share the internal cooldown, meaning that they can both proc at the same time, but if only one procs, it will be 45s before either can proc again. Simply put only one can proc except on those rare occasions that they both proc at the same time. So without that information it seems like those two trinkets stacked would be very nice, but it appears that in practice that's not quite the case.

I'm using Tsunami and Bladefist's Breadth for my crit trinkets so that one can proc when the internal cooldown is up and I can activate the other when able, and not run into that problem.

 

Jaimaster

Nervouso,

the 1:1.5 rotation is standard for SV/MM. 1 auto shot per 1.5 special shots, ergo -

Auto-steady-special
auto steady

(repeat)

Where "special" is Multishot, Arcane Shot, or any other GCD action.

While it is possible to macro such a rotation, I have a quite biased dislike of /castrotation in general, so I wont give you pointers. Perhaps someone else might. Alternatively, you could download Quartz (or Z-Hunter, or Littletrouble), configure the swing timer and manual time your shots

 

kultheel

One place following this logic could go is trinket selection. Specifically does the mana efficency make Abacus of Violent Odds worth considering over Hourglass of the Unraveller or Bloodlust Brooch (my two current trinkets)?

I'm currently 0/24/37 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for those who want to see it and want something faster than armoury) with barrel-blade longrifle and do end up using a lot of mana pots, or end up trying to find chances to feign and drink during encounters where it won't effect my DPS/contribution (Adds cleared before Lurker repops, holding DPS during Hydross transition etc). While it's pretty clear that iAoTH for SV reduces your mana burn rate when it procs - does this mean for mana's sake, it could be desirable to stack up as many haste procs as possible? (Not at once)

Rapid fire, iAoTH procs, DSP, Abacus, Beserking, Haste pots (!). There are certainly enough options out there, that you could keep a haste effect running a lot of the time? 38% of the time just from the controllable effects listed above. Procs will stack with other effects often of course, but with reduced cast time on steady, maintaining 1:1 with no clipping is a lot less of an issue?

It's EU maintenance time, so I might be horribly wrong here, or does seem like a route that could be an interesting way to use the SV spec?

 

Kaber

The problem with doing that is it reduces your over-all DPS. Personally I prefer to avoid screwing with 1:1.5 rotations by using hastes. Now with the Dragonspine trophy, iAotH, and some passive haste with that fast gun, I would say take the abacus and go at it with a full-time 1:1 rotation.

 

Nervouso

And no KC in the rotation?
Thanks a lot for the help.

Btw, i made this macros:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot


I'm not good at macros, so idk if it's good or not. lol
It seems they are working very well, since the arcane shot is always up when i try to cast it.
Btw, i have another question. What's the hit cap for hunters to don't miss lvl 73 targets?

 

Hunterlin

First your macro is bad, because of wrong order of spells auto gets delayed by second steady. Second macro may be ok.

I am using just for myself and weave auto or multi by hand if and when needed.
Place to weave arcane/multi is after steady, before auto. Auto then gets shot whole GCD is cooling off.

 

miruman

From my experience thusfar, long cast sequence macros don't seem to work very well.

When I have done a simple BM macro such as:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot

It's worked fine...

But things like this don't work so well:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot

The above doesn't seem to complete under many circumstances. Maybe because I am not including a reset value. For BM, it seems very simple to make a spammable 1:1 macro with KC included. For 1:1.5 Surv cycles...

Auto/Steady/Multi
Auto/Steady
Auto/Steady/Arcane
Auto/Steady

Manually seems to be the best bet. If anyone has a foolproof macro for this, I'd love to hear about it.

 

Darklighter

I have decided on giving survival a try, but want a build that will still be viable in PVP.

This is what I've come up with so far:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Any suggestions from someone more experienced with the spec?

 

Glaurong

I would probably go with

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You lose some personal DPS and some HP but Improved Stings is just so good in PvP it is hard to run without.

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

rudedog

Why would you be screwing with a 1:1.5 rotation using hastes? You can still fire the auto,steady,special,auto part of the shot cycle under haste although you won't get much of a dps increase from it - the auto,special,auto part of the cycle will still recieve the full haste benefit so I would have thougt you should still see an overall increase in dps.

 

miruman

Under haste effects, your shot time is sped up making it impossible (in the majority of cases) to fit 2 specials in between autos. The same reason fully hasted BM hunters use a 1:1 cycle. There are quite a few posts in the Hunter Haste Rating Analysis thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h..._game_builds/) that can explain this better than I can.

 

Groggan

Damn it, I'm going to have to install Excel and crunch the numbers in Cheeky's spreadsheet to quell this argument once and for all, aren't I? There is a likely chance that purposefully delaying auto-shots and sticking with a 1:1.5 rotation even when hasted will better serve a properly geared MM/SV hunter. If the damage values of steady/arcane/multi shots are sufficiently higher than that of auto shot then a 1:1.5 rotation _should_ do more damage even with delayed autos.

Think of it this way, by dropping down to a 1:1 rotation you are delaying your special attacks, which for a SV/MM hunter should do more damage per shot than your auto by a significant amount (particularly multi if you have barrage).

 

miruman

Are you saying there is a larger delta between the damage of autos and specials for a SV hunter than there is for a BM hunter?

Unless you have Barrage, the ratios between specials vs. auto damage are basically identical when comparing a 41/20/0 BM build and pretty standard Surv build (w/o 3/3 Barrage). Granted I didn't go to the trouble of changing my gear out. But spec-wise, Barrage is the only instance in which the above is true for Survival and not everyone takes that talent.

So, if sticking to a 1:1.5 rotation under haste is better, would the same logic also say that it is inefficient for BM hunters to use a 1:1 rotation?

I'm pretty sure the lost autoshot damage will not be worth it. Regardless, I am interested in seeing what the end result is of a hasted 1:1.5 with clobbered autos.

 

Darklighter

That's the same build I linked.

 

Glaurong

Yeah sorry, wowhead ate my build!

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

Groggan

I'm saying there could be. I also left out the part of the issue regarding how much of the auto shot you lose by delaying it compared to how much of the special you lose by delaying it.

Basically, you have two opportunity costs, one associated with dropping to a 1:1 rotation created by the delay of specials (not launching them as soon as possible) and one associated with staying at a 1:1.5 rotation created by the delay of auto-shots on the steady-special-auto portions of the rotation. If the opportunity cost of the first is more than that of the second then a 1:1.5 rotation would remain better. Another way to think of it is that if the damage lost during the haste by not using each special as soon as they are up is more than the damage you lose by causing the autos to not fire as soon as possible, then 1:1.5 is better.

It would be a pretty easy comparison to make just by filing out the spreadsheet twice with two manual shot rotations for the hasted case, I just haven't done it yet cause I am lazy and don't really want to install excel :P
I guess I'll take the time to track down my excel cd and install it over the weekend. And yes, I fully expect there to be in-game gearing situations where remaining in a 1:1.5 rotation will beat out a 1:1 rotation (probably associated mainly with adjusted-weapon-speeds and just how much haste is being applied on the haste-procs).

 

miruman

I agree with you regarding the general concept of opportunity cost and given the choice, special>auto. I am also fairly certain that we will find some hasted attack speeds at which it is advantagous to keep a 1:1.5 and some where a 1:1 will be more optimal.

Clearly you don't want to drop to a 1:1 if you are around 2.5 hasted, but below 2.0 I am pretty sure a 1:1 is the most shots you can squeeze in without clobbering.

Correct me if I am wrong, but clobbering an auto-shot doesn't "delay" it but rather you lose that individual shot altogether until the next cycle...

It might be possible to squeeze in more damage from specials while clipping autos, but I would think that Lactose must have evaluated that quite some time ago with the old aimed shot cycles.

Note: We keep getting back on the subject of haste rates and shot cycles... This probably belongs in the Haste thread: [Hunter] Haste Rating analysis for end-game builds

 

◊ Lactose

I haven't done any kind of math on this for ages, so I don't know if this is still valid or not anymore, with actual itemization, rotations, etc, being what they are.

For some weapons / rotations, the better option used to be clipping the Auto Shot, firing the special as soon as possible instead. For other setups, this was suboptimal.
I used to brute-force it in my spreadsheet, the calculations were easy enough for me to simply calculate both permutations, then compare them and see which one had the highest DPS.

With all the changes our shot mechanics have seen since then, as well as more proc-based effects, etc, this isn't as easy to compare as it was back then.
I would reccommend using Cheeky's spreadsheet, and comparing the various options in that. It is, as far as I know, one of the most accurate measures of DPS based on gear, etc, we have.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

rudedog

I don't think you're 'clobering' auto anymore than you would normaly do under a 1:1.5 rotation - your just clobbering the extra haste for the parts of the rotation that are auto,special,special - the rest of the rotation(auto,special) gets the full benefit of haste which is why I would expect to see a dps increase.

In the short term, I would expect a 1:1.5 rotation to also increase an unhasted BM specs dps, perhaps not by a lot - at what point mana would become a limiting factor would depend entirely on the length of fight, group compositon, available consumeables and I suppose to a lesser extent, gear choices.