Cheeky's does model different rotations for Quick Shots and DST, you can set them to be 1:1 instead of 3:2. I don't think it models Rapid Fire at all, though.

I think if you look back at Whytefist's posts, you'll see that the 1.5/1.4 rotation is actually better dps for you (in ideal/spreadsheet conditions). In fact... I'm not going back to re-read at the moment, but... I believe the 1.5/1.4 rotation is actually better even if you do have 4piece t6. The reason you see the awesome dps numbers being output by hunters using the /cast /cast macro and a 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation is because a) they didn't know this at the time as Whytefists calculations are relatively recent and b) it is roughly 1 billion times easier to use the /cast /cast macro than it is to somehow make a 1.5 work when accounting for latency, changing haste speeds, etc. This is especially true if you have anything else to do during the raid (leading, moving, etc.)

Myself, I've switched to the /cast /cast macro even though I don't have the 4 piece, and no DST, and I've seen an increase in DPS. Considering that my latency jumps from 140 to 350 ms, that for some reason I chain steadies without bound, and that a 1.5 is actually impossible to use when CC is around, I have seen a real-world dps increase by downgrading to some haste gear to stop chaining steadies and just spamming the macro.

This probably makes me a bad hunter for not being able to hand-weave. Oh well.

Edit/Addition: If the castrandom macro is working for you, you are the luckiest hunter in the world. I see nothing but shots going off in the wrong order (therefor clipping), chaining steadies, and general assmuppetry when I use that sort of macro.

As I mentioned in my original post, it was 2am and I was tired as hell so I very well may have been clipping and who knows what else with the castrandom macro. The only thing that seemed to register in my head was the dps number on recount being higher with the castrandom. I suppose I'll just have to go into my next raid with the /cast and the /castrandom macros and swap them out to get some real-time feedback. I was hoping someone here had already tried this and could tell me if I was assbackwards.

assmuppetry - I'm going to be using this whenever the opportunity presents itself now. ha ha

The thing I don't quite understand is...if a 3:2 is worse DPS than 1.5/1.4:1 for Survival under ideal conditions, wouldn't it mean that for BM it's worse then a 1.5/1.4:1 as well? Since BM doesn't actually gain any direct damage benefits to Steady Shot?

So are we basically saying that, with a 3.0 speed weapon, unless you have enough haste for a 1:1 ratio (which would be easier for a BM to reach) that a 1.5/1.4:1 ratio is your best bet?

Seems to go against everything.

Kraven - You have to remeber that at Dr. Boom your multishot will almost always hit 3 targets, while at a boss fight there is usually just one. So you can't compare those dps numbers properly.

Don't forget that the mana usage when using arcane/multi is insane.

Kk, thanks for the info!

I tested Manito's vs /castsequence on Dr Boom with my setup.
0/20/41, AotH, no Hunter's Mark, not popping any trinkets etc, using Blackflight arrows
Sunfury bow, 2.52 drawspeed
Around 150 ms ping
average of 10 series with each macro, running until OOM.
Manual weaving Arc, Multi.

1:1 /castsequence macro:
DPS-------Damage------Time to OOM---Mana/s-----Mana/1k Damage
930,5-----105910,2------108,75 s--------55,38-------56,87

3:2 Manito macro:
DPS-------Damage------Time to OOM---Mana/s-----Mana/1k Damage
947,66----98494---------101,2 s---------59,52-------61,15

With the /castsequence I was doing 1:1.5 rotation.
However, with the 3:2 macro, I found it impossible (for me ofc, not saying that it's completely impossible) to avoid chaining 2 steadies every 3rd round.
So the sequence ended up as not a traditional 1:1.5. Instead it was SS-auto-SS-Arcane-auto-SS-auto-SS-SS-auto-SS-multi-auto. This actually had one benefit... (see conclusion below)
Chaining 3 SS happened rarely (1 occurence about every 2 or 3 series I ran).

Observations/conclusions for myself:
I was trying for a long time to execute the Manito macro in such a way as to not get 2 chained SS every 3rd round, but never managed to. Might not be possible with 2.9 bow? So for the measurements, I abandoned this approach, and "semi-spammed" like I usually do (spamming in bursts around the end of steady cast and after every weave of a special).

Running with the 1:1 macro with my setup will sustain DPS for a longer time, and I will continue to run this for any fights where I don't have additional Mana regen support.
However, I will try with the 3:2 in the next raid I happen to get a shammy/sp, as it does consistently put out higher DPS for me on Dr Boom, see if it works out to more damage also in raid.

I found the 3:2 macro easier to weave with, here's why: With 1:1 macro, every 2nd or 3rd time Multi was up, the CD would finish so late that I'd either delay the next auto, or even fail and get the Multi in after the auto, delaying my next steady with a fair amount. With Manito's, I'd get more time on the cd:s, because there is a round of SS-SS-auto inbetween. This makes the CD of Multi end in better time for the next cast, and I'd never clip the next auto, or miss the Multi and accidentaly put it after the auto.

I'll run another test once I get my hands on the badge xbow and see what the increased speed does for me (will have enough badges next week i think).

Hey guys,

I have got a tiny question. I am thinking about the Brutallus encounter and asking myself when is the best moment to pop up cooldowns ( trinkets, haste potions, rapid fire ) ? Should I wait until sunder armor is stacked up 5 times + curse of recklessness or should I pull them out right from the beginning ?

Your first step in considering cooldowns on Brutallus is, of course, that you use them as many times as possible over the course of the fight. 2 minute CDs can be used 3 times, 3- and 5-minute ones twice, etc. Next, yes, they should be used when as many debuffs are up as you can reasonably expect that increase your damage (FF, CoR, imp JoC if you get it, sunders... what else am I missing? ). Waiting for these to be put up should never prevent you from using your cooldowns the maximum number of times in a fight, if they do the people responsible for them are being slowasses. AP trinkets should be popped in conjunction with a hasted state whenever possible, and I don't mean merely drums. Using multiple haste-inducing cooldowns at once is trickier... I can't say for sure when it is or isn't a good idea unfortunately, maybe someone else can.

Side note: Trolls, get in a soaking group and wait until that 3rd slash to pop berserking.

Well of course I am considering to use the cooldowns as often as possible.

I was working a bit on it and I think this should work out well:
6:00 - pull
5:30 - trinket + rapid fire + drums + flame cap
5:15 - haste potion
5:00 - everything on cooldown
.
.
.
.
.
.
3:15 - trinket + haste potion + drums
.
.
.
.
1:15 - drums + haste potion + trinket
1:00 - rapid fire + flame cap
0:00 - Brutallus deceased

flame cap? i dont quite understand the use for it, may someone please so kind as to elaborate on that please. At least for the hunter PoV.

Looks right, only thing that might be missing is a heroism, if your guild gives you those. Note that your drums are not every 2 minutes exactly, which is fine if there are only 1-2 drummers in your group; with more you will probably have to be regular about them or risk overlap. Try to feign death only while not using cooldowns, threat permitting. I assume you know all this, but eh.

Unfortunately I don't get a heroism and I am the only leatherworker in my group. I abandoned engineering for leatherworking in order to get the drums because my raid has got only 4 leatherworkers I think

Make sure that you are using your haste effects when your not taking the slash, since it pushes back steady shot.

Rather than possibly using a non-optimal haste routine based around slash damage, I think you're better off doing this if you are SV using the 2:1/3:2/1:1 cycle:

Whenever he is slashing your side, just watch his cast bar. The moment it starts, release macro. Begin macro again once an autoshot has happened after slash. Fill the empty time with a HM, Multishot, etc. That way you avoid the steady-chaining.

Random trivia, if people are curious why it steady-chains (ie, loss of one or more autoshots) on slash or any incoming pushback damage:

GCD: 1.5 seconds.
Steady: ~1.2
Time needed for an auto to fire: ~0.2 (thanks to whichever patch it was). Note: I dont mean the "0.5 second" autoshot cast, as that can now begin during a steady. There still is however, a time required with no action for an auto to go through.

So with a steady every GCD, the autos spit out whenever the swing timer lets them (be it 2:1, 3:2, or 1:1 frequency based on current swing speed from haste) inside the 1.5 - 1.2 gap between Steady finishing and the next Steady starting (when GCD is up). When the pushback on steady happens, the ~0.3 gap where autoshot would of been spat out is now gone, as steadyshot got pushed into that area, and the next one started right away as GCD was up. Then due to serverside queuing and GCD-lax, future autoshots can also be skipped during the funky compensation that the client/server/UI dance does (hence "steady-chains" of up to ~4 steadies without an auto).

Simply casting a multishot on slash, or waiting a split second, will prevent any loss of autoshots.

Oh and while I'm on the topic, the reason why haste makes this whole thing smoother is because it both shortens the cast of Steadyshot (meaning for larger steady-gcd gap), and also potentially reduces auto cast time. Then it also has the benefit of reaching the well known haste break points where autoshot frequency changes under various procs. Latency plays into this during the serverside queuing of steady shot, and it also more noticable during non-GCD capped times (ie, pushback), the the corrensponding casts afterwards. KC between the two steadies where an auto is due to fire also makes the steady<->gcd gap smaller, potentially skipping an autoshot without enough passive haste.

Rambling is fun, and it's been ~20 pages since I repeated the /cast/cast theory.

Hi everyone, I have been reading this thread, probably about 30 pages or so now, and I have seen alot of really great stuff, I noticed that most of the theory in the past 15-20 pages though is primarily Hyjal/BT related. I was curious (perhaps I missed it somewhere) if there is some theory crafting on sunwell content/gear level, reason being is that most hyjal and BT fights are fairly short in comparison (or maybe im just used to them being shorter not sure its been a while) but most sunwell bosses are 6 minute fights, so unless I have a very mana helpful group there is a definite challenge at keeping mana up without using fel manas (meaning cant use haste pots most of the time)

I'm still playing with specs myself right now, as I havent really settled down with one yet (I might be BM on the armory atm cause I respeced for a fight)

So kinda curious, what was your group make-up? And looks like you did a 2:1->3:2->1:1 rotation so that's pretty damn good.

You seem to have exactly the gear I am aiming for on my wishlist so it's nice to see those results from it.

Just out of curiosity were you using Manito's or the Standard BM Macro? I have found that Manito's seems to lock Autoshot more frequently than the standard /cast /cast BM macro for some reason.

I have been getting some lag though recently and that probably explains it in my case...creating a little panic when you are spamming FD and it will not cast

Not only viable but the best thing you could do if your guild doesn't have an SV Hunter yet, which frankly kind of surprises me in light of your progres. Your gear looks great ofc, so there's no limitation there. As far as rotation goes. Check the last few posts by Whitefyst mainly. There has been a very interesting discussion here on most viable rotations for a SV Hunter the last few pages.

Basically - rough translation - there are two stances.
One is to use ~80 Hasterating minimum, 4xT6 bonus, DST preferably and Manito's Macro for 2:1, 3:2 and 1:1 rotations under varying amounts of active haste. With this you'l want to use a specc with 5 points in ImpAspo/tHawk for Quick Shots. Using this option I think you can roll with weapons in the 2.8-3.0 range.

The other (Whitefysts?) stance is that even at the endgame with all the gear available, a 1:1,5 rotation which switches to 1:1,4 (skip an interval waiting for Multi CD) under some haste and 1:1 under more haste is still best damage. I think this option relies on having a 2.9-3.0 speed weapon (I think 2.8 would be too fast - but I may wel be wrong). With this rotation you'll want a basic 0-20-41 specc with Readiness for more Rapid Fires and Utility. Too much passive haste may hurt this build and ArP would be much better.

It depends on preference and gear (4xT6 and DST) for some part I think. Just try both and see which you like more. (Im myself am only in BT atm and have no 4xT6 or DST but I can tell you Im going to prefer the 1:1,5 and 0-20-41 variant greatly, but thats just taste I think.)

Whitefyst and others will be able to respond in much more detail then I have I think, but I thought you might like a fast answer.

Salatrel, the standard 7/20/34 spec for you will probably work, but the big issue is that to make that go smoothly you ideally are going to want around 80 passive haste to allow you to slide into a 3:2 with quick shots and drums. Best options for that usually are from something like the Brutallus neck, the shivering felspine or the 1h haste dagger from Kalecgos I believe, the haste ring, or the cloak from ZA. Some combination of those if you have them available should get you to the sweet spot for using the heavy steady rotation (3:2 style macro for BM but it will be 2:1 when not under sufficient haste effects). Also if you have a DST that's a big help, I'm guessing you don't since it'd probably be better than the other trinkets you're using.

As Cilithan said above, you may want to read the earlier discussion with regards to 3.0 weapon speeds and the 0/20/41 spec. If you don't have sufficient haste available to you to pull off 7/20/34 that may merit serious consideration, although there are differing opinions on the topic and you will have to see what works best for you.

For more general information on survival raiding you can read my guide:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics

i have none of the above mentioned items with passive haste nor have i had the opportunity to loot DST. since sunwell has resetted today it gives me a chance to maybe get some haste items although im low on dkp atm.

since i will most likely try the survival spec on sunday raid i will have a chance to run zul'aman also.

thanks for the tips and swift replies will keep an eye on this thread hoping for some more good advice.

Grats on your personal best.

I think you will probably find righteous weapon coating more beneficial than the blessed, as the mana regen effect procs only off spell casts, such as mend pet and kill command (I think rapid fire and aspect changes too, though I'm not sure). Additionally, with JoW up you could probably pop haste potions instead of the two mana potions you took. Also, if you do need to use mana potions, use fel mana instead of super mana. If mana is still an issue because of a poor group comp on certain nights, use standard mana oil, not the blessed weapon coating. 2167 is nice, but you could be pushing 2.3k

Edit: I made the (probably poor) assumption that the shaman was in your group the whole fight, no totems will hurt a bit. Still, with JoW you should probably be fine on mana, don't necessarily try to stay at full the whole fight. You don't get any bonus for leftover.