On paper at least the dps gain from going from a 20/41 build with expose weakness, MT and Readiness to a build with expose weakness and 3/5 RWS is 11dps (1069 vs 1080 against a lvl 73 monster with 6200 armor raid buffed in my gear). If you go with 3/3 TotH and 2/3 Expose weakness it becomes 16dps. At that level of dps 16 points is a pretty good tradeoff for 3/3 TotH and Readiness which has plenty of utility IMO. You certainly wont perceive the difference in a raid. And if you ever did run out of mana, TotH will get you back more than 16dps. It gives me back about 6k mana on 8-10 min fights. Readiness has plenty of uses the least of which is getting another shot at FD when it gets resisted early in a fight or after an agro dump (Hydross).

Here's a WWS showing 1050-1150dps, 80-85% dps time and ~6k mana per fight from TotH

Hydross/Lurker/Tidewalker

Hi guys and gals. The question that I have is in regards to Expose Weakness in raids. I was just wanting to find out if anyone knows of a mod or a way to find out exactly how much damage exspose weakness is adding to other melee classes in your raid.

Ive used Cheeky's Datasheet to work out what ap I would be contributing to the raid but what I wouldnt mind knowing is the actual damage output and dps it is providing to that individual with that increase to there ap so it could give me a rough idea as to the effect it is having on the raid as a whole.

Our guild uses the WWS report on each run and I have looked at myself and the other melee types and there is nothing there in the way as to show how much exspose weakness has added to there damage or mine.

If this was possible we could then compare out BM/MM damage with that of SV to see how much of a difference there is. Even though you might slightly be decreasing your own personal dps you may be increasing it elsewhere with others and wouldnt mind knowing how much more

Just something that I have been thinking about and wanted to see if anyone else could help me and others out

Cheers Blinard

have a look at page 16 of this thread

First post, this thread: The Hunter Lounge - Theorycraft Within

Based on this, the DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as
(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3

Psysical DPS=hunters (including yourself i guess)?? rogues. And what more ? We normally have one 2h warr and one dual wield warr. and 2 tanks and 2 druid tanks. Should have of thee druids/warriors be a part of the [Physical DPS in Raid ?

Yes, you count as physical DPS for that equation, since you benefit from EW just as much as any other physical damage dealer. Also, this includes hunter pets and felguards, if for some reason you have one. And last but not least, this includes tanks, either feral or warriors, (who, more importantly, gain tps increase via the extra AP).

I don't suppose it will do that much for paladins tanks, since they gain threat through spelldamage more, unless i'm mistaken.

dude you are hitcapped ! only need 90 hit rating as surv! cuzz you get 3 % from talents!

I've been a Survival hunter for about two months now, and have had no problem maintaining a consistent hit rating cap (right now I'm over the cap ceiling), and have been able to pick out a few pieces of equipment that do not have hit rating on them to help bolster some other stats (namely my critical strike rating). What I was curious about; is it a feasible thought to NOT take Surefooted as a Survival Talent and place it in other area's of the Survival Tree? With 3/3 in Surefooted, 3% to Hit Chance is nice, however can be compensated for with the appropriate gear (however, would it hurt other stats, named agility and critical strike rating?) I'm also not sure if a 15% increased resist rate to ensnaring effects is viable in a raid setting (considering that my current spec uses 3/3 Hawkeye, so I am quite far from the actual fight).

Any thoughts, or any prior experience NOT taking Surefooted, as well as the pro's and con's of it? Right now I'm neutral on the idea, and would theorize that the idea behind not taking Surefooted directly correlates to the amount of gear you have available (More gear choices can lend more versatility).

Well, i've been thinking about that for a while, since, with no gear change whatsoever, after changing from MM and BM to SV, i 've been stuck with lots of +hit rating that are taking up stat points from my gear.

However, i decided against it. Why? because you probably want to go for EW, LR and TOTH higher in the tree, and you will basically need those points there. Sure, you can invest them somewhere else, if it pleases you, but the really low tier survival talents are pretty much crap for raiding (except Hawk Eye and the 2 Slaying talents). You will not need any of the following EVER for raids: Savage Strikes, Improved Wing Clip, Deflection or anything more than 1 point in Trap mastery.

On the other hand, Survivalist is decent, but, personally, i found that the times i DO die during a raid is during wipes or disconnects.

So, as it stands right now, i'm basically waiting for the alternative SV items i want to finally drop so i can cut some of that excess hit rating.

Chance to miss on a level 73 mob is 9%. So after surefooted, you need 6% to hit. 96 would be the cap.

Physical DPS = Hunters, Rogues, Warriors, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamen.

Basically, anything that isn't magic or poison.

fwiw I dont think those 5 points in IAotH are getting you anything. If you modify your shot rotation to take advantage of it you will lose dps, and if you dont its not really doing much. Putting 3 points in Humanoid Slaying would get you more than 2% from focused fire on most of the fights too. Even though its not the most broadly loved talent putting those points into MT would actually net you a DPS increase while IAotH doesnt.

As deep as you are in SV you might consider freeing up one point from any of a number of places and getting Readiness. Extra MD, FD, Rapid Fire, Deterrence, Trap. Nice little get out of jail free card on several levels. Even more so in an arena.

I have tried a spec with Readiness, and for sure, it was nice to have around. I overlooked it when respecing last time, but i'm really considering losing a point in Entrapment for it.
However, i doubt i'll go anywhere near an arena any time soon; i've set my mind on PVEing with PVE gear exclusively - sort of a matter of pride for me.

OKay might be me being a bit tired but.
We have this full geared T5 rogue and a full t5 TANK. they both get a 200 exstra ap. The rogue is gonna do way more dps, but the tank is tank he wont do as much more as the rogue or am i wrong?

You are right; the tank will still do a lot less damage than the rogue. BUT, and i capitalized that on purpose, 200 AP also increases the threat the warrior generates. In fights where threat is an issue, that makes quite a difference, helping the tank keep up with that overaggroing warlock

And, as a side note, if you're reffering to Expose Weakness, it's not a flat 200 AP, it's 25% of the hunter's total buffed agility.

Its not the dps you should compare, TPS. Rogues extra TPS will be less than 100% DPS gained from extra ap even without salvation i believe, while extra TPS of warr/Bear will be way over 100% of the DPS gained from same ammount of extra AP.

Question is whats the diference in TPS gains from the buff. Would be nice if someone smart made some reasonable tests on warriors/druids to find the formula to count tps gained from AP, Windfury, Inspiration etc.

Longtime reader first post

If I want to keep 3/3 EW and TotH for now, what would provide the best DPS boost with the last 5 points other than MT and IatH?

(edit: I'm BM till I get home was doing arena)

MT. With a 1:1.5 rotation you will drop dps switching to a 1:1 rotation when IAotH is up, and if you dont swap rotations you will not see a dps gain from IAotH. Either way MT is a 30 dps upgrade if you dont swap rotations and a 50dps upgrade if you do. On top of that you can have readiness for 1 point after you get MT. FWIW once you get around 35% crit unbuffed you only really need 2 points in EW.

Depending on the speed of your weapon, you could also just put a point or two into Imp Hawk. Just enough so that you won't start clipping on your 1:1.5 rotation when it proc's.

You bring up a good point. I'm thinking that at some point 3/3 Barrage and 2/5 IAotH would be better than MT.

I believe with Quiver I'm at ~2.46 weapon speed from 2.9. 6% haste would bring me down to just above 2.3 correct? That would still be enough time for a 1:1.5 rotation with less wasted time.

According to the spreadsheet of love from Cheeky, 3/3 barrage + 3/5 IAotH using a 1:1.5 rotation all the way through (raid buffed) is still a 17dps drop vs 5/5 MT and you have to give up readiness and can have at most 1 point in surefooted or imp feign. Each point you stick in quick shots adds about 2dps over the previous point. These are extremely small gains for each talent point.

The max dps spec seems to be 3/5 RWS and 3/3 Expose Weakness (16 dps more than 5/5 MT). To get that you completely lose Thrill of the Hunt though. Either way we are debating +/- 20 dps on a number that is around 1200. I'd pick the talents that give you close to max dps + the utility you like to have. For me right now its 5/5 MT with readiness and with the impending troll weapon skill nerf the freedom to put 3 points in surefooted. I also get 2 points in TotH, 2 in EW, and a point left over for wyvern sting to avoid pvp respecs.