[top]> 37 + 30 + 4

And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%

Vasilii · 11/27/07, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by Lumphoof

After some extensive work with Cheeky's Spreadsheet, the S3 Helm gave me the most bang for my Arena point buck, so to speak, that will be my first upgrade.

For a DPS-per-Arena Point ratio, the S3 Bow was exactly as good as the S3 Helm, just takes twice the points - and a 1850 Raiting. The ZA Bow actually came out on top, even over the S3 bow, so I will track my guild's progression in ZA - if the ZA bow is in reach, I'll find other places to spend my Arena points.

Oddly enough, the S3 pants and gloves were downgrades in DPS, based on the spreadsheet. The S3 Chest and Shoulders were upgrades, but I doubt my casual team will earn a 2K ranking anytime soon.

Glad to know I can stick with my 1:1.5 shot rotation. I had worried that I was leaving DPS on the table, since I was finishing Gruul with quite a bit of mana on my bar - I may just cast Mend Pet more often, instead of having my pet at 50-75% health, and risking an early death from a cave-in.

Thanks for the help all!

That's Strange...

For my 0/20/41 Survival Build the Season 3 Bow comes out as a gain of 25 dps while the ZA Bow is only a gain of 9 (currently using the Prince Bow)... its interesting to note that the season 3 bow is even better than the vashj bow which came out as a gain of 20 dps

You are correct to say that the helm is by far the biggest upgrade in terms of dps for the season 3 armor.... the rest is very moderate in terms of dps gains over the season 2 or equivalent gear.

Trohck · 11/27/07, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html. Seemed a better idea than posting a new reply, and not being able to find it again 4 weeks later. Enjoy.

Nice post. Here are a few (relevant) T6 pieces you're missing:
1h melee : 21 [Messenger of Fate]
Head : 64 : 42+22 [Forest Prowler's Helm]
Waist : 38 [Boneweave Girdle]
Wrist : 19 [Wraps of Precise Flight]
Wrist : 35 : 25+10 [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Bow-stitched Leggings]

And one from Kazzak:
Legs : 71 41+34 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]

The leg slots increase the total (pre-buffs) by 5.

Lumphoof · 11/27/07, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Alumatine

QFT. The point of the 4/5 iAS build is to time your 1:1.5 SS/AS macro so that its perfect down to a few milliseconds without using multishot. If you are going to use multishot anyway then you have 8 seconds or so between arcaneshots so a reduced cooldown is not necessary. That means you never need to change your macro for CC fights to avoid breaking sheep and you have better mana efficiency for single target dps. Also I'd say that the macro given in post 597 would be better if it started with steadyshot, generally it gives a better tighter rotation. To be honest you're better just not using multishot and sticking to the 5 shot 1:1.5 macro.

It does equal or more dps (from personal expirience and others that have posted WWS).
Has better mana efficiency.
Is a generally shorter macro which means you can complete a full rotation in less time allowing more mobility.

I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this I can't think why anyone would do it any other way.

/castsequence reset=5 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Is this a better macro then? I'm not sure if I should put an Auto Shot after the last Steady Shot.

Trohck · 11/27/07, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Alumatine

I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this [improved arcane 5-shot macro] I can't think why anyone would do it any other way.

I've moved to doing it manually since 2.3. The 5-shot macro consistently fails and delays shots - particularly if you aren't hitting the macro at the moment of an autoshot. I can't possibly be the only person experiencing this. Yes, this macro was wonderful in 2.2 and I used it to great effect. Should it actually work I agree with you.

Zurgat · 11/28/07, 3:25 AM

Originally Posted by Trohck

Nice post. Here are a few (relevant) T6 pieces you're missing:
1h melee : 21 [Messenger of Fate]
Head : 64 : 42+22 [Forest Prowler's Helm]
Waist : 38 [Boneweave Girdle]
Wrist : 19 [Wraps of Precise Flight]
Wrist : 35 : 25+10 [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Bow-stitched Leggings]

And one from Kazzak:
Legs : 71 41+34 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]

The leg slots increase the total (pre-buffs) by 5.

Cheers, added and updated.
A few values seem to be different from the tooltip, i presume the tooltip is the correct value?

Trohck · 11/28/07, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

A few values seem to be different from the tooltip, i presume the tooltip is the correct value?

Yeah, sorry, was from memory.

Muarf · 11/28/07, 4:09 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

Cheers, added and updated.
A few values seem to be different from the tooltip, i presume the tooltip is the correct value?

There are a few errors like these two:

Legs : 71 : 41+30+4 [Bow-stitched Leggings] => 42 + 30
Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]

[top]> 37 + 30 + 4

And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%

x1.25, not 1.1 * 1.15 = x1.265 but I might be wrong

Zurgat · 11/28/07, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by Muarf

There are a few errors like these two:

Legs : 71 : 41+30+4 [Bow-stitched Leggings] => 42 + 30
Legs : 72 : 42+30 [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman]

[top]> 37 + 30 + 4

And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%

x1.25, not 1.1 * 1.15 = x1.265 but I might be wrong

Fixed the items, looks like i swapped them somehow.

I have no way to check stacking at this time as my hunter is BM specced.
It's quite possible i'm wrong though. Perhaps somebody could verify this?

Thalestris · 11/28/07, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

Fixed the items, looks like i swapped them somehow.

I have no way to check stacking at this time as my hunter is BM specced.
It's quite possible i'm wrong though. Perhaps somebody could verify this?

According to Cheeky's Spreadsheet, the correct formulae is (agi * 1.10 * 1.15)

I supposed it was confirmed

ugla · 11/28/07, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Thalestris

According to Cheeky's Spreadsheet, the correct formulae is (agi * 1.10 * 1.15)

I supposed it was confirmed

Cheeky is correct. The percentage increases are multiplicative.

Muarf · 11/28/07, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by ugla

Cheeky is correct. The percentage increases are multiplicative.

Ok, my bad
thanks for the clarification

Wunlastri · 11/28/07, 1:56 PM

In a stream of biasness, I've never looked at Arena bows as all that great. Currently I am using the barrel bladed longrifle as BM and am looking into what I can obtain outside of raiding that brings allows me to switch back over to SV. Seeing as I don't pvp much/ever, how many weeks of 2 hour pvp/ 3-4 days a week would the S1 or S3 bow take? And how much of an improvement would the S1 or S3 bow be over my current?

Also, why don't pvp bows/guns ever have agi?

Gruknok · 11/28/07, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lumphoof

/castsequence reset=5 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Is this a better macro then? I'm not sure if I should put an Auto Shot after the last Steady Shot.

Pretty sure KC will delay the shots, its even has too low DPM to be used as MM / Survival. I only use it with rapid fire+trinket and BM macro in encounters where i can afford the mana wasting.

Gruknok · 11/28/07, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Alumatine

QFT. The point of the 4/5 iAS build is to time your 1:1.5 SS/AS macro so that its perfect down to a few milliseconds without using multishot. If you are going to use multishot anyway then you have 8 seconds or so between arcaneshots so a reduced cooldown is not necessary. That means you never need to change your macro for CC fights to avoid breaking sheep and you have better mana efficiency for single target dps. Also I'd say that the macro given in post 597 would be better if it started with steadyshot, generally it gives a better tighter rotation. To be honest you're better just not using multishot and sticking to the 5 shot 1:1.5 macro.

It does equal or more dps (from personal expirience and others that have posted WWS).
Has better mana efficiency.
Is a generally shorter macro which means you can complete a full rotation in less time allowing more mobility.

I used to use a full multishot, arcane, steady, auto macro but since I've used this I can't think why anyone would do it any other way.

Id say starting macro with autoshot is better. At the moments when youve moved or did something else and the macro is reset youd start with auto then imediately start casting steady, this way youd just get a free autoshot everytime macro is reset by the timer or at the start of the fight. With steady as an opener you wasted the time casting steady and multi/arcane while you could use that time for autoshot cooldown.

Tsook · 11/28/07, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

I've edited post #17 in this thread to make a list of available gear.
http://elitistjerks.com/368534-post17.html

Seemed a better idea than posting a new reply, and not being able to find it again 4 weeks later. Enjoy.

Nice list. You're missing a few max agi items, though. They're not really relevant for dps purposes, and relatively difficult to get, but I believe if you're going to take things to extremes, you should go all the way. >.>

[Illidari Cloak] of Agility - 33
[Lurker's Belt] of Agility - 55
[Arcane Loop] of Agility - 33

Together they give 6 more agi from gear than the current max value.

EDIT: And [Umbral Shiv] for 32=12+10+10, 4 more than the Blade of Infamy in offhand. [Rage], at 30=20+10 is of note, but not a new maximum.

Muarf · 11/29/07, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by Gruknok

Pretty sure KC will delay the shots, its even has too low DPM to be used as MM / Survival. I only use it with rapid fire+trinket and BM macro in encounters where i can afford the mana wasting.

With a 3.00 speed bow (bristleblitz), I noticed that if I put a KC just after a steady/arcane it delays the next auto by ~500ms. it's maybe more after a steady/multi since multi shot has a small hidden cast time
otherwise with auto steady kc auto there is no delay

Zurgat · 11/29/07, 3:08 AM

Originally Posted by Tsook

Nice list. You're missing a few max agi items, though. They're not really relevant for dps purposes, and relatively difficult to get, but I believe if you're going to take things to extremes, you should go all the way. >.>

[Illidari Cloak] of Agility - 33
[Lurker's Belt] of Agility - 55
[Arcane Loop] of Agility - 33

Together they give 6 more agi from gear than the current max value.

EDIT: And [Umbral Shiv] for 32=12+10+10, 4 more than the Blade of Infamy in offhand. [Rage], at 30=20+10 is of note, but not a new maximum.

Added, also I think there are probably more of these "of agility" items, a few notorious ones would be :
[Ravager's Bands] of Agility
[Glider's Sabatons] of Agility
And several blue items that could be added more for the sake of completion than actual max agility listing.

The illidari cloak is only lvl 66, so if there is a lvl 70 version it would give more agility.
Same goes for the arcane loop.

Edit : Added a number of such random suffix items. Haven't been able to find the exact values for all of them however.

Also added : http://www.wowwiki.com/Sayge%27s_Fortunes
For another 10% buff, though this is only possible during a short time each month.
I presume this buff stacks in the same manner as the talent and Blessing of Kings?

Cleaned up the buff section, and added some zone and other buffs. ~1700 max agility now.

minoshei · 11/29/07, 5:11 AM

If you wanted to see the highest agility possible, wouldn't you consider double mongoose on weapon instead of 20+20. I know that its not a thing you use since its melee, and its totally useless in raid but for a highest agility, those are 200 more agility than 20+20 enchant.

ugla · 11/29/07, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by minoshei

If you wanted to see the highest agility possible, wouldn't you consider double mongoose on weapon instead of 20+20. I know that its not a thing you use since its melee, and its totally useless in raid but for a highest agility, those are 200 more agility than 20+20 enchant.

The only reason to consider maximizing agility for a survival hunter is for the expose weakness debuff. Running into melee range until you get 2x mongoose procs and then running out to shoot would almost always lower your direct and secondary damage contribution to the raid. You'd be doing far less damage in melee range than you would from ranged while attempting to get the proc while not keeping up expose weakness, then once you get expose weakness up with your mongoose proc you'd have a time once your procs wore off where you couldn't refresh expose.
So I imagine mongoose enchants aren't included very purposefully.

minoshei · 11/29/07, 5:33 AM

that is why i stated as only if you wanted to see the highest agility

Zurgat · 11/29/07, 6:14 AM

Originally Posted by minoshei

If you wanted to see the highest agility possible, wouldn't you consider double mongoose on weapon instead of 20+20. I know that its not a thing you use since its melee, and its totally useless in raid but for a highest agility, those are 200 more agility than 20+20 enchant.

As ugla stated, there's indeed no point in adding mongoose for raiding purpose.
The main intention to the list is to give you a list which can help you provide as high an agility bonus as possible in order to apply a reliable debuff.
Having to run into melee, wait until 2x mongoose is active, then running out is pretty pointless.

It's a nice idea to get an extra which could give you an extra ~300 agility in total, and i'd absolutely love to see somebody make a screenshot of them having 2000 agility on their paperdoll. Not to mention the huge crit chance they'd then have.

I don't think their personal DPS would actually suffer all that much with good gear.
2000 agi = 2000 AP and over 50% crit.
Plus an extra 500 AP due to the debuff, and 400 AP when hunter's mark is active.
You'd lack immense amounts of stamina and int though, so you would be pretty squishy and useless in raids.

Still, would be interesting to see it actually done at least once.

Trohck · 11/29/07, 1:01 PM

You might consider removing most of the "X item of agility" items (basically all of the green and blue ones) if you're aiming this at raiding purposes. The blow to your personal DPS from wearing items that have only agility doesn't outweigh the gain to raid DPS from a slightly stronger EW. There are dungeon blues that are better for raiding than any green or blue "of Agility" item.

ugla · 11/29/07, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Trohck

You might consider removing most of the "X item of agility" items (basically all of the green and blue ones) if you're aiming this at raiding purposes. The blow to your personal DPS from wearing items that have only agility doesn't outweigh the gain to raid DPS from a slightly stronger EW. There are dungeon blues that are better for raiding than any green or blue "of Agility" item.

Those items are still useful to raiders, I think. I, for instance, have had awful luck with rings. Currently in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, the only instances my guild does with any sort of regularity, there is exactly 1 ring that drops that has a high amount of agility. It has dropped twice, and I let it go because both were within our first few kills of Shade of Akama. It now hasn't dropped in about 3 months and I'm kicking myself. I'm also starting to eye up of agility greens in the auction house to use during raids until I actually get another decent ring.
Like Zurgat stated, if you used the highest agility items in every slot you'd be squishy and not worth a whole lot to a raid. If you have a couple pieces of gear lingering with no agility from your filthy BM days, though, this list will help you find a placeholder while you wait for a raid drop.

Trohck · 11/29/07, 1:32 PM

There may be some minor exceptions, but it seems to me they will be incredibly rare. It's okay to wear a piece without Agility on it so long as the other stats make up for it, and there are dungeon blues and 5-man quest rewards that exceed the BoE's - in your case [Slayer's Mark of the Redemption], [Ravenclaw Band], and others.

I'm not saying there is universally no situation where "of Agility" items can be used for a net positive, I'm suggesting those situations will be so rare that adding them just clutters the list. If you have items "of Agility", you may as well add items "of the Bandit", because they're nearly as good.

Gruknok · 11/29/07, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Muarf

With a 3.00 speed bow (bristleblitz), I noticed that if I put a KC just after a steady/arcane it delays the next auto by ~500ms. it's maybe more after a steady/multi since multi shot has a small hidden cast time
otherwise with auto steady kc auto there is no delay

Ofc there is no delay in a 1:1 rotation, but there is delay in the auto->steady->KC part of 1:1.5 rotation because the steady is pushed due to GCD.

[top]> 37 + 30 + 4 And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%

[top]> 37 + 30 + 4 And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%

[top]> 37 + 30 + 4

And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%

[top]> 37 + 30 + 4

And I thought that BoK and Lightning Reflexes give 10% + 15%