Basicaly there are 2 optimal shot rotations that maximize damage: 1:1 and 1:1.5.
1:1 is standard BM rotation. It can be used with MM or Surv too with 2.4 speed weapon, just endgame do not have such weapons past [Consortium Blaster]. (BBL is to fast for 1:1.5, but to slow to be optimal for this rotation too for not BM)
1:1.5 rotation is invented to pack maximum amount of shots with slower weapons while just minimally interfering with auto shot. It is minmaxed rotation to include 3 specials over 2 autshots without lowering auto shot dps. We can not do more special shots,even instants, over 2 auto shots because of GCD and because steady have cast time that need to be timed correctly between autoshots. Basic 1:1.5 rotation : auto/steady/(instant)/auto/steady.
The group comp in the above WWS are 3 hunters + 2 casters. No GoA or LotP. Ugly IC kill (1.1 million damage done, oy).
These 2 are a bit over a month old, thought I believe my gear was virtually identical to what I wear now. Also, I believe I had GoA and LotP for most/all of these.
It seems 1.7-1.9k is excellent for stand-and-deliver fights like Rage and GF. 1.1-1.4k for Shahraz, depending on mana drains, pot use and ports. 1.3-1.5k for BB depending on rages. Note that long fights like Azgalor and IC favour TotH builds by permitting full and/or upranked multishot rotations with hawk running for longer periods. Hell, with a ret paladin, mana spring and BoW, I don't have to pot at all on IC while burning mana as fast as possible.
The 2nd Kill Command in the macro I posted is Lightning Breath - I do not have Kill Command written to go off 2x in the macro, I typed it improperly on this thread.
This doesn't change how your macro behaves. I didn't even count second KC in your macro since it would do nothing.
I had 80 Auto Shots, 79 Steady Shots (Close to 1:1) and then I had 37 Arcane Shots and 15 Multi-Shots that is a total of 52 Arcane/Multi-Shots while holding onto a 1:1 Rotation.
Auto/Steady part is OK. Really its 1:1.
Whats wrong is 52 Arcane/Multi-Shots. Such large number of specials indicate MUCH clipping of auto shot.
*Whoa looked WWS you stated only normal shots and forgot about crits! /bonk
Ideal (0 lag, 0 reflex...) 1:1.5 rotation has 100 Auto Shots and 150 specials.
100 Auto Shots, 100 Steady shots and 50 other specials (arcane/multi and in your macro half of KCs also).
Due movement, mend pet, HM refresh, Scorpid Sting, getting parasite, placing trap, switching targets, getting heroism, popping rapid fire... and human reactions+lag number of specials per auto shot drops.
80 normal + 64 crits = 144 auto shots
79 normal + 53 crits = 132 steady shots
37 normal + 27 crits = 64 arcane shots
15 normal + 21 crits = 36 multi-shots
144:232 = 1:1:61 rotation
This ratio alone tells me that you clip(delay) auto shot. Glaurong I believe has special parser for this.
Here this is from your Ilidian log. 29 seconds of fight, 7 autoshots. That's 4.2 "speed" on your bow... after quiver and possible hastes gained.
You have Arcane and Mulit-Shots before Steady casts, that's big loss already. And pet was alive in this period and KC I'm sure delayed some of these shots too.
05:52'41.139 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1864
181 Kurkis's Arcane Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 852 Arcane damage
05:52'44.149 Kurkis's Steady Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 840
05:52'47.392 Kurkis's Multi-Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 938
05:52'49.446 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2126
05:52'50.088 Kurkis's Arcane Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1912 Arcane damage
900 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1896
05:52'53.102 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1945
931 Kurkis's Auto Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 812
05:52'55.588 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2107
05:52'56.424 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 1892
424 Kurkis's Arcane Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2027 Arcane damage
05:52'58.899 Kurkis's Steady Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 950
05:53'00.165 Kurkis's Multi-Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 1061
314 Kurkis's Auto Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 90005:53'03.446 Kurkis's Auto Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 898
05:53'05.243 Kurkis's Steady Shot hits Illidan Stormrage for 844
05:53'06.009 Kurkis's Auto Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2095
009 Kurkis's Arcane Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2110 Arcane damage
05:53'08.792 Kurkis's Steady Shot crits Illidan Stormrage for 2164
In same time with proper (well perfect) 1:1.5 rotation person would shot not 20 but 30 shots. In reality person can do 26-28 shots in that time. This table has 200ms lag already counted in. And with 3.0 weapon.
As you can see in this rotation special shots are not fired immediately when available, but when they are able to be fired after steady shot. (you can see 11 seconds between 2 multi-shots, 10seconds between 2 arcanes...)
ah seems you corrected your last "theoric" sequence ... because just when I wanted to post, the autoshot speed was 2.1, which means a 2.9 weapon in a BM hands :p
what's the weapon base speed now ? 3.0 ?
otherwise, your data would be wrong again, because 2.9 base + quiver don't give a 2.9 autoshot cycle
ah seems you corrected your last "theoric" sequence ... because just when I wanted to post, the autoshot speed was 2.1, which means a 2.9 weapon in a BM hands :p
what's the weapon base speed now ? 3.0 ?
otherwise, your data would be wrong again, because 2.9 base + quiver don't give a 2.9 autoshot cycle
Fixed to 3.0 base speed now. I owned Legionkiller in the past and didn't update spreadsheet.
Edit: And survival rotation.
Does anyone care to go over what are good/bad DPS numbers for a T6 SV Hunter?
I consider myself pretty decent dps for a survival hunter, feel free to check out my guild WWS at Wow Web Stats
I'm at 954 agility unbuffed now, pretty much need only an Illidan/Archimonde bow and a Madness of the Betrayer to finish off my gearset (as well as a few more spinels... damn those things).
Note: Saggies (new hunter to the guild) is comparatively undergeared compared to Boduar (BM hunter) and myself, our primary hunters. This'll explain his apparent lack of dps, even though he is BM.
I'm a 0/28/33 build using an Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady rotation.
I am a new poster on these forums and appreciate all of the good information in this thread. Please keep it coming...
Although I have not yet been able to read every reply in this thread (have read about 70%), one item that I have noticed is the continual debate over which build is optimal for a Survival hunter. Some hunters have indicated that a IAtH/FF build is optimal, while others have stated that a MT/Readiness build is better, and yet others have stated that a barrage build is best.
After seeing all this discussion and having done extensive analysis using my character and tools like Cheeky's spreadsheet, I have arrived at the answer to the ultimate hunter question, and that answer is:
IT DEPENDS
I realize that this answer may be obvious to many, but it does not seem obvious to all as can be seen from the intense discussions. Hence, I just wanted to point this out and provide some rationale for it.
Which build is optimal depends on many factors, such as:
- Which is more important to you, maximizing personal DPS, maximizing your EW contributions to the raid, or a balance of both? Some builds will provide better personal DPS but at the cost of your average EW contributions, while other builds may have the opposite effect. I personally prefer trying to find a balance between the two.
- What gear you currently are wearing. I know that most people are already aware that build and gear are interdependent. Most people realize that what build you are influences your gear choices to maximize that build. However, what I have noticed that people often do not realize is that the interdependency goes both ways. What gear you currently have available also influences which builds are more effective for you. For instance, if you are wearing 4 arena pieces with the 1s reduced cooldown for multishot with one of the pieces being the arena 3 gloves with the 5% damage bonus for multishot, a barrage build may be better for you with that gear. Other gear choices such as whether your best ranged weapon is relatively fast or slow influences the optimal Survival build as well. In addition, the mana pool and regen capability of your gear influences whether you need to forgo some talents that would directly improve your DPS and/or EW contributions for talents that increase your time to OOM, which allows you to maintain your more effective rotations longer and, thus, indirectly improving your DPS and/or EW contributions. I personally have found that as my gear has changed that a different build is sometimes more effective than the one I had been using.
Thus, the moral is to not take anyone else's word on which build is best. What build is best for them, may not be the ideal build for your character at the current time. Listen to their insights, but explore for yourself what builds work best for you.
====================
As an example to how gear affects your optimal build, here is an example using my hunter. Prior to the availability of the ZA and T6 equivalent arena and PvP gear, I had found from previous analysis that a 7/20/34 (5/5 IAtH, 2/2 FF, standard 20 in MM to get 5/5 Mortal Shots, and then 3/3 EW and 1/3 TotH) was the most effective for my Survival hunter with the gear he had and my desire for a balance between personal DPS and EW contribution maximizing. After the availability of the new gear and acquiring of much of it, I redid my build analysis. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, I tried out about 11 different builds and 5 different shot rotations for each to see which build/shot rotations were most effective for my hunter with his current gear. The different builds all had at least 20 points in MM talents to have 5/5 Mortal Shots and at least 32 points in Survival talents to have 2/3 EW with experimenting with various IAtH, MT, barrage, and RWS builds for the remaining 9 points. From this analysis, I discovered that the currently optimal build for my hunter was 0/20/41 with 2/3 TotH, 3/3 EW, 5/5 MT, and Readiness.
I'm new to posting like many, but avid reader, I was wondering about my spec. I'm SV right now, I've done a lot of reading, but I'm just not sure my gear is ready for it. I have about 825Agil unbuffed. I have a good guild, i run with 2 other hunters, 2 rogues and 1 enhan. Shammy. I was wondering if anyone could give me a little advice as to what i should do to maybe pick up the slack a tad. I really enjoy being an SV hunter, but not sure if my EW is really helping the raid. I do normally rank in the top 1-5 of our runs, but our casters are not that smart or care. So i would like to challenge myself like i always do. Thank you for your time.
825 agility unbuffed is plenty for starting out survival. If you're competitive with damage with a survival build, you're doing fine. Most of the talents to pick up are fairly obvious, and only a few are subjective to play style or preference.
So as SV I gave up my Saberclaw Talisman for the latest PVP neck and popped in the 10 crit gem.....I feel like I've broken a tenant rule of survival giving up so much agility.
Whitefyst, interesting post and I agree with what you say. I've mainly gone the MT route but I'll be testing the IAotH/FF soon because it is a significant dps increase according to cheeky's spreadsheet. I'm certain that one reason it is a larger dps increase now is that when I first made the decision to go to MT I was using a 2.70 speed bow. I just aquired a 3.0 speed bow and Haste would work better for me now because there will be less clipping. I really hope that a ret pally makes most of my raids or i'll be chugging pots.
So as SV I gave up my Saberclaw Talisman for the latest PVP neck and popped in the 10 crit gem.....I feel like I've broken a tenant rule of survival giving up so much agility.
The problem is, however, that there's nothing better than [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] for Survival, and yet every class in the game can pay insane DKP for it, only to replace it halfway through BT/MH. And as for the second best, I feel I need to disagree. I mean, it depends if EW takes priority, or if EW is just a perk for going the high crit % route for you. But one has to look after his own damage output as well, after all... Forgoing Saberclaw you gave up around 28 raidbuffed agility (quick mental math, stick with me), which is 7 less AP for the raid, gaining quite a few personal dps.
In the big picture, a single item isn't worth that much, but personally, I've been tempted to replace [Saberclaw Talisman] myself, but I just don't see the PVP one as an upgrade...
EDIT: fixed the AP estimate
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
As for the second best, I feel I need to disagree. I mean, it depends if EW takes priority, or if EW is just a perk for going the high crit % route for you. But one has to look after his own damage output as well, after all...
Subtracting 21 Agi and 20 Stam off each item, it's 3 hit plus socket contents vs 13 stam plus 46 AP.
Socket contents for me are 16 Agi = 22 Agi after LR+Kings. So I lose 24 AP to make EW 5.5 AP stronger. If there are at least 5 physical DPS in the raid (including myself), which there always are, then that's more total AP for the whole raid, plus I get half a percent of crit from those 22 Agility. The 13 stam and 3 hit are both pretty minor, so the difference in their contributions to neckpiece attractiveness is negligible. Use BT gems and Necklace of the Deep looks even better.
Of course, we're free to simply disagree. I feel like I strike a fairly good balance between personal DPS and EW strength (my current unbuffed [+hawk] stats are 846 Agi, 2044 AP, 35.7% crit, and my guild is 1/6 SSC, 1/4 TK). I'm also not really running Kara anymore, and Saberclaw never dropped.
here is a link of wws report from my guilds karathress try and kill. Wow Web Stats
i am playing 0/20/41 with readyness using the standard atuo>steady>multi>auto>steady>auto>steady>arcane
when under 2 second attack speed (eg from haste) i switch to just auto>steady.
my gear isnt the best for survival having only respec to it today, to much hit rating.
having feral druid 2 shaman 1 bm hunter in my group (shaman add tank group)
my question is this at my gear level is my dps where it should be and also is there anyway i can improve my dps throught changing spec or gear?
Is it not utterly retarded to anyone else that Necklace of the Deep is one of the best in slot for ...the entire game up to this point?
Since we don't really do TK much anymore, I'm torn between replacing it with said blue. Even the neck gorefiend drops isn't better? Seriously. I can plug it in the spreadsheet if need be, but hearing such assuredness is disconcerting.
Sidenote; The other hunters in my guild are historically better than me, however I've noticed that I as SV can overtake them now. I know it's because I use a windserpent on boss unfriendly fights with LB in the macro and consumables (dual elixirs, sometimes mageblood, pot away) and expensive ammo, but still the goal is to max out truth? Anyways, everytime I try to enlighten them just a little bit they wall up and change topics or something. Granted their dps isn't ass, but they outgear me and I don't expect to be able to catch up/overtake them in fights they have more experience on.
EJ, how can I get them to let go of their old ways and step their game up?
Subtracting 21 Agi and 20 Stam off each item, it's 3 hit plus socket contents vs 13 stam plus 46 AP.
Socket contents for me are 16 Agi = 22 Agi after LR+Kings. So I lose 24 AP to make EW 5.5 AP stronger. If there are at least 5 physical DPS in the raid (including myself), which there always are, then that's more total AP for the whole raid, plus I get half a percent of crit from those 22 Agility. The 13 stam and 3 hit are both pretty minor, so the difference in their contributions to neckpiece attractiveness is negligible. Use BT gems and Necklace of the Deep looks even better.
Of course, we're free to simply disagree. I feel like I strike a fairly good balance between personal DPS and EW strength (my current unbuffed [+hawk] stats are 846 Agi, 2044 AP, 35.7% crit, and my guild is 1/6 SSC, 1/4 TK). I'm also not really running Kara anymore, and Saberclaw never dropped.
My argument would be wear [Choker of Vile Intent] For the nice stats plus the hit rating. Until you can replace with the neck off Kael, it doesn't seem the trade off is worth it. If you have maxed hit rating else where, I would argue that giving up [Fiend Slayer Boots] in order to wear the vashj or solorain boots would be better than freeing up the neck spot to wear necklace of the deep.
I've been tempted to replace [Saberclaw Talisman] myself, but I just don't see the PVP one as an upgrade...
EDIT: fixed the AP estimate
Until the post concerning the Necklace of the Deep, I would definitely have to agree with you. I have done evaluations of most of the end-game necks (didn't evaluate Necklace of the Deep though), and until I get Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem, Saberclaw Talisman came out to be the best option if I do not need additional hit rating to stay at or near the cap, which I currently do not. If I do need additional hit rating, then the Choker of Vile Intent is what I currently throw on.
However, I need to add Necklace of the Deep to the analysis, but from Gearknights quick analysis, it appears to be a possible option.
I've long since realized I'm never going to see a telonicus neck, and I will proudly wear my necklace of the deep into sunwell (*hopefully* not beyond though). The two things I pray for in sunwell are a usable gun, and an agility necklace. Anyways, not sure if armory's working yet (it's been up and down), but I'd love a critique of my gear- aside from telonicus neck and madness of the betrayer, I *think* I'm done with gear. Anyone see things I'm missing?
Okay, I am sold on [Necklace of the Deep]. I have done the analysis, and for my current gear and talents versus the Saberclaw Necklace, it provides a little more DPS, about 0.5, and a significant more EW AP proc, 5.2, when fully raid buffed at a cost of only 143 health.
Looks like I will be contacting my JC to make me one (luckily, I have the mats already).
01/04/08, 12:42 AM
looked WWS you stated only normal shots and forgot about crits! /bonk
Similar Threads
