• Tibor

I picked up [Bow-stitched Leggings] last night, and I think I made a mistake socketing it with 3 Spinels. Looking ahead, I'm not seeing a whole lot of blue sockets in my future, and once I finally upgrade from my ancient and obsolete [Ebon Netherscale Breastplate], I'm going to have a tough time making the RED's gem requirement.

Where do you guys typically put your non-red gems?

 

QuiggyB

Here is how I have been looking at it. More shots fired in the same period of time will produce more dps in the end. Im not really comparing the dps number as much as the shots fired number. In all 3 of the cases spamming auto and steady only the number of specials fired is consistent and very close to the max possible with the gcd - 62 shots. As the amount of haste increases the number of auto shots fired in the period increases from 27 to 34 to 39 and those are all free mana shots. total shots went from 89 to 96 to 102.

Now with the 1:1.5 rotation 32 autos and 48 specials were fired in the same time period. Thats 10 less shots fired than the unhasted case and cost significantly more mana going oom 25 seconds earlier. So the auto steady spam is giving max possible specials and 5 less autos. Adding in haste the number of autos scales where the 1:1.5 macro breaks.

 

QuiggyB

Popping two greens into Bow-stitched leggings would have been a good move since they would cover your meta requirements, make your set bonus and you wouldnt be upgrading those any time soon. Everything else could be +10 agi reguardless of socket color.

For now you could pop a green in your helm and bracer, or two in your belt of deep shadow to make the meta requirements.

 

• Tibor

You know, damn, I completely didn't think of green gems. Talk about shameful! =)

 

Trohck

You'll eventually have a blue and a yellow socket in [Gronnstalker's Spaulders], pretty easy to put two greens in that or in [Gronnstalker's Chestguard], or mix and match.

 

QuiggyB

Back on the shot rotation thing, one item I misstated was additional shots per time period. The /castsequence macro ran for 10 seconds less because of the extra mana consumption so its not fair to say it produced 10 fewer shots. It produced the same number of shots per second as the unhasted auto / steady spam but cost 9 mana / sec more doing so.

Here is a spreadsheet using average hit values for auto, steady, arcane, multi taken from a wws of a fully raid buffed MM spec hunter against Morogrim Tidewalker. Arcane actually gets a boost here. tdps is calculated as shot count * shot dmg / time. From this it seems in an unhasted situation auto / steady spam does the same dps as a 1:1.5 rotation while consuming less mana. Adding in haste, the auto / steady spam scales past the /castsequence without changing its mana / sec consumption because the number of specials were already close to being capped.

For reference these are the five macros being compared:

/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot

---

/cast !auto shot
/castrandom arcane shot, steady shot

---

/cast !auto shot
/castrandom multi-shot, arcane shot, steady shot

---

/castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, steady shot

---

/castsequence reset=3 !auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, !auto shot, steady shot, !auto shot, steady shot, multi-shot, !auto shot, steady shot




edit: added more tests, also found a case where multi/arcane/steady spam produced even more dps but cost 50% more mana.

 

Gurth

I tried this macro and didn't work good at all... i don't know but had autoshot firing every 3-4 steadys on avarage, it may have to do with latency, i'm usually at 250-300. I did noticed that popping raid fire help on auto going on more frequently, so this could actually mean you are back on manual timing steady...

Still looking at it, waiting for more feedback

 

SomeRandomIdiot

Don't waste your time with green gems as survival. You're slightly better off actually using 2 yellows and 2 blues instead.

Assuming all BT gems:
2x 5crit 7stam gems
2x 10agi gems

[top] 20agi, 10crit, 14stam

2x 5hit 5agi gems
2x 5agi 7stam gems

20agi 10 hit 14 stam

Seeing as top end gear lacks hit anyways, you might as well save your guild the spinels and go with the other gems.

 

Trohck

Green gems allow you to cover your meta requirements in once piece of gear, giving you more flexibility in other pieces of gear.

 

QuiggyB

Updated the post above to include more tests

 

Gearknight

But at the same time, Oranges+Purples may let you pick up more socket bonuses. Blizzard gave us choices!

 

Gearknight

I just did a little reasoning about the value of master tactician relative to barrage, and I'm wondering if someone can check all of my logic and math.

1 point of barrage increases multi-shot's damage by 4%
1 point of MT increases 2% of your shots' damage by ~137-144% (depending on slaying) when it's up, which is roughly 35% of the time

{{ Sub-proof 1 - MT uptime: MT lasts 8 seconds. Whenever a shot is fired, there will usually have been 7 shots fired in the last 8 seconds. The probability that MT will be up is therefore 1 - 0.94^7 = 35.1% Or does MT have a hidden cooldown? }}

For a 1:1.5 rotation against a single target, multi-shot is 10% of your shots, but it does high damage, so we'll say it's 12% of a hunter's damage, before barrage.

Total damage with barrage / Total damage without barrage = 0.88 + 0.12 * 1.04 = 1.0048.

MT is up 35% of the time, and 1 point turns 2% of your shots from non-crits to crits when it's up. 0.35*0.02 = 0.007. So MT turns 0.007 of your shots from non-crits to crits, increasing their damage by a factor of 2.37 (non-slaying) to 2.44 (slaying).

Let's say that your crit percentage is X (a number between 0 and 1) before master tactician

Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = [(X+0.007) * Y + (1-X-0.007)] / [XY + 1-X] where Y is either 2.37 or 2.44, depending on slaying.

For a typical X = 0.45 and a middle value of Y = 2.4, then:

Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = 1.0049

So the value of 1 point of master tactician is (within a margin of error) the same as the value of 1 point of barrage. However this does not take into account the fact that extra crits from MT give your pet focus, save some mana via TotH, and keep EW up.

Have I screwed up somewhere, or should I stay convinced that 0/20/41 is the way to go, and not 0/24/37?

 

Threepi

The 5agi/7stam gem is actually a purple gem, not blue.

 

QuiggyB

Purple = blue + red. It fits in a blue or red socket and is a blue gem just as much as a red gem for all practical purposes.

 

QuiggyB

@ Gearknight, some people are experiencing identical or superior single target dps never firing a single multi-shot. You can get a 1:1.5 rotation with imp arcane shot and a better than 1:1.5 rotation spamming auto / steady. See several posts up (#831) for some data on that. Once you decide you arent going to be shooting multi then you can put those 6 points in barrage / imp barrage anywhere you like - its all a gain at that point.

Specifically on MT, people have said elsewhere in this thread that it works out to about 3% additional crit.

 

Wunlastri

Last night after killing Supremus I decided I'd take the leather chest because I didn't feel like seeing it sharded. Upon recieving and gemming it, I noticed an issue. I have way too much hit how. Like 40.266 too much, aka 2.57%. This leads me to decide to drop surefooted.....but I don't know what to replace it with, or how to get that remaining .43% or 6.7 (7) hit rating.

The increase is marginal (nor have I gemmed or enchanted it yet, because it's so marginal) and that leads me to wonder if I should switch my setup or wait until I get a more tangible upgrade to burn gems/enchants on. The only reason I'm not just going for eeking out the last bit of dps is because doing this is going to shake up my talents a retarded amount.

Not an avid pvper, I'm shaky on what to put my possibly free talent points in.

Ok. By marginal I mean 10.~ on the spreadsheet.

This is odd. By the spreadsheet going over the cap doesn't cap the DPS. With my talent tree not changing it's 17 dps. But I'm capped. A flaw in the sheet?

 

Enova

Keep surefooted for now, and check the hit rating on your 4 pieces of tier 5 compared to 4 pieces of tier 6. If you plan on getting them any time soon, surefooted stays for good, with or without the leather chest. Otherwise 2/2 Clever traps + 1/2 Trap mastery might replace it, and it's handy for kiting trash in Hyjal.

EDIT: I'd still advise against dropping surefooted from a survival build; somehow, it feels wrong.

Guilty as charged ^

 

Cheeky

Maybe. If you can provide a bit more information (or even better, track the way hit factors into damage per shot on the 'Calculations' tab) we might be able to figure it out.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Rivkah

I've been getting frustrated waiting for the Al'ar gun to drop for my hunter (we haven't seen it once and now that we're killing Kael I'm worried I may never get it), and I really prefer not to use bows. My current weapon is the wolfslayer which combined with lag issues creates a big problem for me maintaining a proper rotation. I've been looking at the tuskbreaker since it's 2.9 speed as a possible alternative (assuming it drops) and I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how much weapon speed the 18 haste rating will translate to on a 2.9 speed gun. I know it's supposed to be 1.14% haste, but I'm not sure when that gets applied (before or after ammo pouch) and what sort of shoot speed I'll be looking at (I know my 2.7 speed gun shows up as 2.3 speed on Quartz before haste effects proc). Can anyone tell me?

I also have maintained a gear list for survival hunters for some time now and I figured I might ask here if people want to look it over and see if I'm missing any items that should be on the list. I tried to update it recently to catch the new 2.3 items I'd forgotten about but I may have missed a few things. It's at:

Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Gear Guide

 

Gurth

All haste effect are multiplicative, so it doesn't matter if you apply it before or after.

 

nutteh

So to sum up the post a few up. Its fair to say that 1:1 is actually better then a 1:1.5 rotation.
I guess its also a good advantage if you go 1:1 is that you can stack a bit of haste, and not clip your as.

Ill give it atry tonight in Hyjal

 

Vasilii

This is incorrect, if you're attempting to do 1:1.5 with a cast sequence macro you will not be executing the 1:1.5 rotation well at all, I would suggest using a steady shot macro and manually weaving in arcane and multi. You will see much better dps using a 1:1.5 than a 1:1.

 

Kurkis

As far how to gem for T6:

10agi Helm
12 agi/3 crit damage Helm

10agi Shoulders
10agi Shoulders

10agi Chest
5crit/7sta Chest
5crit/7sta Chest

10agi Bracers of the Pathfinder

10agi Gloves

10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Bow-Stitched
10agi Bow-Stitched

10agi Quickstriders
5agi Quicksiders


QuiggyB -

I've been doing this 2:1 rotation myself and I find it to perform better then a 1:1.5 - I've also looked at just spamming in Multi, Arcane when it refreshes and that also seems to move more DPS then the 2:1 - My thing on that though is since the 2:1 scales as you increase your haste - Heroism, Rapid Fires, Haste Pot, DST, Drums and then if you wanted to drop Master Tact for Quick Shots, it would seem to me just running the 2:1 Steady/Auto is best.

My problem and perhaps you are running into this as well. Kill Command is botching the cycle. I use a G15 and I have my Steady/Auto spam set to just push/hold the button down and it will spam 1. Whether I macro in KC, or manually drop it in it seems to cut off the next Auto Shot forcing me to go 3 Steady Shots in a row without an Auto Shot.

I wonder if because Steady Shot is always starting with .5 left on Auto that when Kill Command goes go through I am eating up the chance for Auto and have to wait until a new Steady Shot cycle for the Auto to go back into sequence.

Using the macro of -

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot

On Illidari Council I ran close to 1700 DPS with 192 Steady Shots, 77 Auto Shots and 58 Kill Commands.

This totally munched my Auto Shots and ultimately my DPS - Right now I'm running around using a 2:1 spam without KC. This bothers me though because not using Arcane or Multi with this, I want to get that 12-15k of KC damage.

Anyone with suggestions on how to resolve that? I raid with a ping under 200.

Really seems to me this rotation is optimal for MM/Survival - The only things I am trying to figure out is how to get KC into this rotation without it killing my Auto Shots, is Improved Hawk and Focused Fire better to get then ultimately Master Tactician and while spamming Multi/Arcane/Steady with !Auto Shot yields more DPS in an unhasted state is it just better to run 2:1 Steady spam only when you are running with 4 Drums, Haste Pots, DST, Rapid Fires, Quick Shots and Heroisms.

 

Gruknok

Where are the multishots in the castseq 1.5 macro statistics?

Been also wondering, how can you know the dps of /castrandom if you dont know the time you were doing the shots?

Havent been playing for a while so i prolly missed something in the latest patch. Though i werent using "!" In my macro after 2.3 and it worked the same as before. Maybe the problem is the "!".

And what about comparing manual 1:1.5 multi /arcane rotation vs /castrandom macro?
Id say you should also test imp arcane 1:1.5 rotation with /castsequence auto shot, steady shot, arcane shot, auto shot, steady shot if theres something wrong with multi shots.

 

QuiggyB

Multi-shots - not sure what you mean. It was at the front of the cast sequence. Shot count wise its under the ms column.

dps - used recount to count the number of shots of each type.

1:1.5 castsequence with imp arcane - its in there, right above the ones with multi-shot.

For other types of timing - just go to dr boom and do whatever. use recount to record your shot counts. If you find something that consistently produces more shots in the same time period than are listed in the sheet then you have found an improvement.