I just did a little reasoning about the value of master tactician relative to barrage, and I'm wondering if someone can check all of my logic and math.
1 point of barrage increases multi-shot's damage by 4%
1 point of MT increases 2% of your shots' damage by ~137-144% (depending on slaying) when it's up, which is roughly 35% of the time
{{ Sub-proof 1 - MT uptime: MT lasts 8 seconds. Whenever a shot is fired, there will usually have been 7 shots fired in the last 8 seconds. The probability that MT will be up is therefore 1 - 0.94^7 = 35.1% Or does MT have a hidden cooldown? }}
For a 1:1.5 rotation against a single target, multi-shot is 10% of your shots, but it does high damage, so we'll say it's 12% of a hunter's damage, before barrage.
Total damage with barrage / Total damage without barrage = 0.88 + 0.12 * 1.04 = 1.0048.
MT is up 35% of the time, and 1 point turns 2% of your shots from non-crits to crits when it's up. 0.35*0.02 = 0.007. So MT turns 0.007 of your shots from non-crits to crits, increasing their damage by a factor of 2.37 (non-slaying) to 2.44 (slaying).
Let's say that your crit percentage is X (a number between 0 and 1) before master tactician
Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = [(X+0.007) * Y + (1-X-0.007)] / [XY + 1-X] where Y is either 2.37 or 2.44, depending on slaying.
For a typical X = 0.45 and a middle value of Y = 2.4, then:
Total damage with MT / Total damage without MT = 1.0049
So the value of 1 point of master tactician is (within a margin of error) the same as the value of 1 point of barrage. However this does not take into account the fact that extra crits from MT give your pet focus, save some mana via TotH, and keep EW up.
Have I screwed up somewhere, or should I stay convinced that 0/20/41 is the way to go, and not 0/24/37?
your math does not seem incorrect. I don't know if you've taken a look at Cheeky's spreadsheets which confirm that MT, since the crit affects all shots, results in a higher overall dps.
When I was doing some math of my own, I considered the following:
Say you run a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9 speed bow and 200ms latency. With quiver, this results in a 10 shots taking about 10 seconds. So say in 100 shots, 6% of those proc MT (ignoring that MT might proc again before its duration is over). That's 6 shots, lasting 8 seconds each, for a grand total of 48 seconds of say, 8% extra crit (4/5 MT).
Lets assume your base crit is 35%, so for 48 seconds, you have 43% crit. Since you're shooting 1 shot/second, this amounts to 48 shots * 43%, or 21 shots that crit. The other 52 shots are your normal 35% crit, so 52 shots * 35% = 18 shots.
In total, 18 + 21 = 39 critted shots for a grand total average of 4% extra crit over what you have originally. Since I'm doing this all with whole numbers and some rounding, the actual number is closer to 3%. Once you have the "effective added crit rate" from MT, you can compare the extra damage to barrage, where 1/10 shots in your rotation will have 12% more damage. It's rather late at night, so I can't do that calculation right now.
But like you said, the extra crits give pet focus, Thrill mana back, and EW. IMO, 0/20/41 is better than 0/24/37
I'm looking for some type of calculation to help determine how much raid dps you get from 1 agi. I know I can use Cheeky's to determine how much personal dps I get from an item, I'm trying to find something to compare the raid dps and personal dps of an item. Assume that there are ~3 hunters, 3 rogues, 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 prot warriors.
Are you looking for information regarding raid buffs' affect on you damage? If so, the spreadsheet does have a "buff" tab in which just about every buff/debuff configuration can be added.
Are you looking for information regarding raid buffs' affect on you damage? If so, the spreadsheet does have a "buff" tab in which just about every buff/debuff configuration can be added.
No, I'm trying to make sure that I'm not making bad loot choices and picking up pure agi items and losing so much personal dps that the dps that my EW gives the raid doesn't make up for it.
Right now alot of my gear is mostly for personal dps... I just made the switch from BM and I'm looking to start working on SV gear.
@Quig - I'm searching through now to take a look, thx.
Reasonably close estimations for this have been provided further back in this thread. Try searching for posts by Lactose specifically.
I found it on page 12. Thanks.
Originally Posted by Lactose
"Hi, whenever my Expose Weakness is up, every ranged / melee attacker against that target gains [Agility]/4 Attack Power. Most ranged / melee attackers gain somewhere between 0.2 and 0.3 effective DPS per Attack Power (dependant of class / spec, most are closer to 0.3).
This means that, whenever Expose Weakness is up, the raid's DPS increases by [Ranged + Melee on target]*[Attack Power gained from Expose Weakness]*0.3.
Additionally, the tank is able to produce more threat, possibly allowing for more damage to be dealt by e.g. our casters, who do not benefit directly from Expose Weakness."
For example, with 900 Agility and 7 Melee & Ranged attackers on target, 225 AP gained, 67.5 DPS gained per attacker (roughly), ~470 DPS gained for raid.
So with the setup I listed about 3 hunter, 3 rogues, 1 fury war, 2 prot war, 1 feral druid, counting all 3 tanks as 1 for dps. I came up with 8(dpsers)*.25(the amount of ap from 1 agi)*.3(dps per 1ap) = .6 dps. So to answer my own question 1agi=~.6dps with my raid makeup.
I just did a little reasoning about the value of master tactician relative to barrage, and I'm wondering if someone can check all of my logic and math.
The answer to whether MT or Barrage is better, is IT DEPENDS. It depends on what gear you are currently wearing (e.g, do you have 5% bonus to multishot damage and 1 s less cooldown from arena gear), how you have allocated your other talent points, your mana situation, etc.
Thus, I would not suggest trying to determine an answer with simple math comparing the two skills directly since it is imprecise and ignores many factors. I would suggest using available tools, like Cheeky's Hunter's Spreadsheet, where pretty much all of the variables are accounted.
After the 2.3 patch and my acquisition of some new gear, I did an analysis where I tried various gear combinations (for items current owned), specs (11 different), and rotations to evaluate which was currently best for me. At that time, the MT build worked out best for me across all rotations. Since I was wearing 4 arena pieces, a Barrage build with RWS actually produced more DPS (by about 11 on a 1:5 rotation) but went through mana much more quickly (time to OOM was 18s less at 99 s even with using mana oils) and had a slightly lower average EW proc (by about 5 AP). Since I knew that I would be replacing some of the arena 3 pieces soon (which I have) to lose the multishot bonuses, was having mana problems, and was providing a better average EW buff to the raid, I chose the MT build. (Yes, I realize that when comparing the DPS loss against the raid DPS gain from the EW proc that there is a net loss, but that is made up by time when I am mana deficient and not operating at full throttle. When using a 1:1 rotation to conserve mana, both rotations had almost identical DPS, within 1, but the MT build has 36s more time to OOM and still more average EW proc.)
Thus, in short, I suggest using something like Cheeky's awesome spreadheet with your current gear to evaluate which spec is currently best for you.
QUOTE=giameetj;606461]ISo with the setup I listed about 3 hunter, 3 rogues, 1 fury war, 2 prot war, 1 feral druid, counting all 3 tanks as 1 for dps. I came up with 8(dpsers)*.25(the amount of ap from 1 agi)*.3(dps per 1ap) = .6 dps. So to answer my own question 1agi=~.6dps with my raid makeup.[/quote]
You almost got it. Your calculation is a good estimate with 100% EW uptime. If your uptime is close to 100%, then it is still a suitable estimate, but if it is much lower (such as not having all 3 ranks in EW or a high crit rate), then your estimate is a little high and should be scaled by your EW uptime.
In addition, do not forget the pets for the hunters as well. They also receive the AP boost if they are attacking their targets, which provides a good raid DPS benefit as well.
What I do to evaluate gear choices is I use Cheeky's Spreadsheet. For my current gear selection, I write down the DPS, Time to OOM, EW uptime, and average EW proc. Those are my main factors for evaluation, although I do keep an eye on survivability stats, such as armor, health, and dodge, just to make sure that I maintain acceptable amounts. Then when I try out new pieces of gear, I try to optimize its DPS and EW proc benefits by gem selection and any other gear swapping to get optimal HR or set bonuses. Once I am happy with that optimization, I compare the deltas for the 4 main categories I track and do a tradeoff analysis to choose which is better. I do this analysis for any possible upgrades available to me so that I already know whether I want it or not, and how badly, when it drops.
For example, I currently have the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix. With it, my main stats from Cheeky's spreadsheet assuming full raid buffs are:
DPS: 1198.76
Time to OOM: 160.81s
EW Uptime: 98.77%
Average EW proc: 284.25 AP
Now since we just killed Vashj for the first time last night, our other hunters are foaming at the mount for the Serpent Spine Longbow; however, I do not plan to try to out bid our BMs for it, since it is not an ideal upgrade for a Survival hunter but is a huge upgrade for our BMs. Plugging it into Cheeky's provides the following deltas for me:
DPS: +13.3
Time to OOM: +2.4s
EW Uptime: -0.05%
Average EW proc: -6.08 AP
Hence, although it is a big upgrade for me in personal DPS, it is a downgrade in my total raid DPS contribution as long as there are at least 7 physical DPS on the target, which there usually are. Don't get me wrong, I would still like it for soloing and small groups, but it will help the raid for me to let our BM hunters get it first and it would save me a lot of DKP for items that are better for my raid contribution. If it drops a third time, I will probably take it for cheap.
Until I can get Legionkiller from Supremus, which IMO is the best range weapon currently available for a Survival hunter, I am content with getting the Arcanite Steam Pistol from A'lar if it drops since it is the only other ranged weapon left besides Legionkiller that increases both my DPS and my EW proc and since I should be able to get it for cheap since none of the other hunters want it.
Now since we just killed Vashj for the first time last night, our other hunters are foaming at the mount for the Serpent Spine Longbow; however, I do not plan to try to out bid our BMs for it
Please let your BM Hunters know that's a bad idea. I have a [Serpent Spine Longbow], and it's great for PvP. When I zone into a raid instance I'm packing the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle]. (And I'm a Troll with +1% crit with the bow, the gun's speed is just that much more of an advantage.)
Multi-shots - not sure what you mean. It was at the front of the cast sequence. Shot count wise its under the ms column.
dps - used recount to count the number of shots of each type.
1:1.5 castsequence with imp arcane - its in there, right above the ones with multi-shot.
For other types of timing - just go to dr boom and do whatever. use recount to record your shot counts. If you find something that consistently produces more shots in the same time period than are listed in the sheet then you have found an improvement.
The ammount of multishots of 1:1.5 /castsequence macro and /castrandom macro duration are shown as "?" in your chart so i was wondering how accurate is the dps there then?
Your 1:1.5 arcane rotation is also missing one autoshot after arcane, But its probably mistake in the post. 4/5 or 5/5 imp arcane rotation with 2.9 weapon has the highest shooting rate for a survival in my experience. Dont know how can you get higher since it uses the global cooldown close to 100% anbd has close to 0 autoshot clipping. But multishot damage is higher than arcane so the dps diference betwean 1:1.5 arcane and 1:1.5 arcae+multi depends on machine, connection and Curse of Shadows.
I'm looking for some type of calculation to help determine how much raid dps you get from 1 agi. I know I can use Cheeky's to determine how much personal dps I get from an item, I'm trying to find something to compare the raid dps and personal dps of an item. Assume that there are ~3 hunters, 3 rogues, 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 prot warriors.
I count it this way:
1*1.15(LR)*1.10(BoK) = ~1.27 Agi
1.27 agi will be roughly equal 2.5 AP for you so 2.5 * 0.3 = 0.75 Personal DPS with 0.3 beeing the constant for calculating average dps of a physical dps class that is gained from ap. Can find more about it somewhere her on the forum.
1.27 / 4 = 0.32 AP via expose weakness, raid with 8 other physical dps classes will gain 8*0.35*0.3=0.77 DPS from expose weakness. 2 prot warr dps would be roughly 2*0.32*0.1(~3 times less than a physical dps class)=0.06 DPS
So the raid dps gained from 1 agi will be roughly 0.75+0.77+0.06=1.6 DPS.
1.4 agi will be roughly equal 2.8 AP for you so 2.8 * 0.3 = 0.84 Personal DPS with 0.3 beeing the constant for calculating average dps of a physical dps class that is gained from ap. Can find more about it somewhere her on the forum.
1.4 / 4 = 0.35 AP via expose weakness, raid with 8 other physical dps classes will gain 8*0.35*0.3=0.84 DPS from expose weakness. 2 prot warr dps would be roughly 2*0.35*0.1(~3 times less than a physical dps class)=0.07 DPS
So the raid dps gained from 1 agi will be roughly 0.84+0.84+0.07=1.75 DPS.
Rather than retype a conversation ill just repost what has been discussed between Zek and I via a private messege as it has now become relevant to the thread.
Originally Posted by Sapa
Originally Posted by Sympa
I have seen a few times now that the calculation for raid benefit is
( [(total agility)/4]*(Number of Phsycial DPS) ) * .4
Am I wrong?
Well yes and no.
Upper formula with * .3 or .4 should give you rough estimate of EW contribution if you had 100% uptime.
Lets say you have 1000agi.
1. That's 250 AP EW.
2. Rogue spreadsheet says 250ap bonus = 100dps@T6 gear (made up the number)
3. You have 2 rogues. One doing 2000 and one 1500 dps, same spec, equal gear.
4. You must move allot and your uptime suffers (80% uptime).
Did you contribute 200 dps out of that 3500? No, uptime is not 100%.
Was it 160 (80%)? No again, those rogues are not robots from spreadsheet.
What needs to be done is finding % of dps increase for each Physical class by EW. And calculate raid gain for each from there to be precise.
For me constant (250ap) EW would be 75dps increase in spreadsheet, that equals to 4,42% of my (personal, no pet) dps. And if I'm doing 1200 personal dps (instead 1700 from spreadsheet) ... that 75dps lowers to 53dps gain from EW.
QUOTE=giameetj;606461]Until I can get Legionkiller from Supremus, which IMO is the best range weapon currently available for a Survival hunter, I am content with getting the Arcanite Steam Pistol from A'lar if it drops since it is the only other ranged weapon left besides Legionkiller that increases both my DPS and my EW proc and since I should be able to get it for cheap since none of the other hunters want it.
I disagree with you.
I currently use Legionkiller, but I believe that Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker is the best survival ranged weapon at the moment.
Not only is it s fast weapon, which survival hunters need, it can potentially have 32-36 agility, which is of huge benefit to a raid. Just plugging in the weapon compared to Legionkiller gave me around 60-80 dps more.
Fast weapon and survival hunters doesn't work. Barrel blade long rifle has a lot of agi indeed, but would force you to a 1:1 rotation or major clipping.
The ammount of multishots of 1:1.5 /castsequence macro and /castrandom macro duration are shown as "?" in your chart so i was wondering how accurate is the dps there then?
Your 1:1.5 arcane rotation is also missing one autoshot after arcane, But its probably mistake in the post. 4/5 or 5/5 imp arcane rotation with 2.9 weapon has the highest shooting rate for a survival in my experience. Dont know how can you get higher since it uses the global cooldown close to 100% anbd has close to 0 autoshot clipping. But multishot damage is higher than arcane so the dps diference betwean 1:1.5 arcane and 1:1.5 arcae+multi depends on machine, connection and Curse of Shadows.
I dont see any "?" on the chart. The value for multishots for the two sets of tests that used them were 6 and 7 respectively.
A 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.9ish speed weapon has some unused gcd in it that adds up. Over 90 seconds its about 12 missed specials - 120dps if you could get them all in there.
With the "new" mechanics of Steady and Autoshot, my WWS parses are showing Steady-Steady-Auto taking about 3.2 seconds to fire on average, and Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto about 5.55 seconds to fire on average. Since the shots-per second are about the same, and Steady does better per-shot damage, that means the Ashtongue Talisman is now uber, even for Survival hunters.
At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 8 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%.
So the Talisman is worth about 184 AP, making it equal to or better than any other trinket.
Last edited by Trohck : 01/24/08 at 3:01 AM.
Reason: Typo
Please let your BM Hunters know that's a bad idea. I have a [Serpent Spine Longbow], and it's great for PvP. When I zone into a raid instance I'm packing the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle]. (And I'm a Troll with +1% crit with the bow, the gun's speed is just that much more of an advantage.)
Believe me I have already done so with telling them that it is the optimal BM weapon with the best weapon speed for BMs 1:1 rotation. Plus, it is a much simpler rotation to perform than trying to do a 1:3 or 1:5 with a slower weapon and trying to switch back to a 1:1 rotation during temporary haste times (Rapid Fire, Quick Shots, Drums, etc.).
I currently use Legionkiller, but I believe that Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker is the best survival ranged weapon at the moment.
Not only is it s fast weapon, which survival hunters need, it can potentially have 32-36 agility, which is of huge benefit to a raid. Just plugging in the weapon compared to Legionkiller gave me around 60-80 dps more.
Couple things:
1) My guild is not big enough to kill Doomwalker by ourselves. Early on we killed him a couple of times with other guilds, but I do not believe that we have plans anytime soon to kill him again since we are focused on getting into T6 content and then trying to get through it. So I believe that my chances of acquiring [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] as being very slim, so I really do not consider it as an option.
2) Even if it was an option, I still believe that [Legionkiller] is better for me for overall raid DPS, at least at my current gearing. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, the best DPS rotation using [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] was still the 1:5 with 1231.33 DPS, 119.58s to OOM, 99.19% EW uptime, and 289.55 AP average on EW proc. In comparison, the 1:5 rotation using [Legionkiller] resulted in 1289.58 DPS, 119.62s to OOM, 99.13% EW uptime, and 285.92 AP average on EW proc.
From this analysis, [Legionkiller] is clearly superior, since time to OOM is about identical and the 58.25 personal DPS gain is greater than the 3.63 AP average gain on EW proc from [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] since it would require 54 (58.25/(3.63*.3)=53.49) physical DPS to be in the raid and on the same target as me to make up for the personal DPS gain from [Legionkiller]. Since that is clearly impossible in 25 man raid groups, which typically have around 7-15 physical DPS with pets, [Legionkiller] wins.
Now, if I add on some haste gear, the [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] may become better than [Legionkiller]. However, all of my current haste gear lowers my DPS instead of increasing it.
With the "new" mechanics of Steady and Autoshot, my WWS parses are showing Steady-Steady-Auto taking about 3.2 seconds to fire on average, and Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady-Auto about 5.55 seconds to fire on average. Since the shots-per second are about the same, and Steady does better per-shot damage, that means the Ashtongue Talisman is now uber, even for Survival hunters.
At this rate of fire you have exactly 5 Steady Shots every 5 seconds, which means your uptime is about 67%.
So the Talisman is worth about 184 AP, making it equal to or better than any other trinket.
Sorry if this is clear for all other readers, but could you elaborate on the "new" mechanics? And similarly, what cycle is it that uses Steady-Steady-Auto?
1) My guild is not big enough to kill Doomwalker by ourselves. Early on we killed him a couple of times with other guilds, but I do not believe that we have plans anytime soon to kill him again since we are focused on getting into T6 content and then trying to get through it. So I believe that my chances of acquiring [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] as being very slim, so I really do not consider it as an option.
2) Even if it was an option, I still believe that [Legionkiller] is better for me for overall raid DPS, at least at my current gearing. Using Cheeky's spreadsheet, the best DPS rotation using [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] was still the 1:5 with 1231.33 DPS, 119.58s to OOM, 99.19% EW uptime, and 289.55 AP average on EW proc. In comparison, the 1:5 rotation using [Legionkiller] resulted in 1289.58 DPS, 119.62s to OOM, 99.13% EW uptime, and 285.92 AP average on EW proc.
From this analysis, [Legionkiller] is clearly superior, since time to OOM is about identical and the 58.25 personal DPS gain is greater than the 3.63 AP average gain on EW proc from [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] since it would require 54 (58.25/(3.63*.3)=53.49) physical DPS to be in the raid and on the same target as me to make up for the personal DPS gain from [Legionkiller]. Since that is clearly impossible in 25 man raid groups, which typically have around 7-15 physical DPS with pets, [Legionkiller] wins.
Now, if I add on some haste gear, the [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] may become better than [Legionkiller]. However, all of my current haste gear lowers my DPS instead of increasing it.
1. If you guys are sitting outside BT waiting for the raid group to form up, there is no reason not to kill doomwalker while he is up.
2. Yes, it varies greatly depending on your gear, and your race. For dwarves that extra 1% crit from using a gun, can make a difference.
On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect.
On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect.
Expose weakness procs off a crit. You dont crit when you miss. Id say it has some affect on it.
On a seperate note, what does everyone think about hit rating vs agility? Is it worth dropping hit rating for more agility. After all in terms of keeping up expose weakness, hit rating has no affect.
At my point in progression, only 3/6 SSC, 1/4 TK, its almost impossible to drop far enough below hit cap for it to matter, especially with 3/3 surefooted. I'm actually a little over right now, but I went 3/3 surefooted so that I wouldn't have to juggle specs while swapping out gear.
01/18/08, 4:02 AM
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