As far as ToTH, this talent is amazing, I seriously don't understand how you are raiding without it. Over the course of our 4 Azgalor attempts last night I received over 40k Mana from ToTH (including trash & boss).
The closest we got to killing Azgalor was 40% (our first night of attempts) and during that fight ToTH returned over 3k mana.
Trash doesn't count. You can drink in between trash, so who cares. But, I've never seen 6k in mana returned even on long fights. My highest that I remember was around 4.5k. Average was closer to 2k. I prefer Wyvern Sting and 3/3 EW instead of mana. I am usually grouped with a shadow priest, so that could bias my preference a bit.
Trash doesn't count. You can drink in between trash, so who cares. But, I've never seen 6k in mana returned even on long fights. My highest that I remember was around 4.5k. Average was closer to 2k. I prefer Wyvern Sting and 3/3 EW instead of mana. I am usually grouped with a shadow priest, so that could bias my preference a bit.
I would say trash does count in Hyjal where you are fighting continuously and the less downtime you have the more time you have to get in position for MDs or CC for the next wave. Not to mention all the money saved from not blowing mana pots every CD.
I agree though, If I knew I had a shadow priest each and every raid I would switch to 2/3 ToTH and 3/3 Expose instead of vice versa.
Edit:
Looking at your spec I'm wondering why you did not take monster slaying, and getting 5/5 MT and taking WS over Readiness seems strange to me, I have previously raided as 24/37 and have never found a use for WS in raids.
Hi,
im a 0/20/41 surv build, i use the Steelhawk Crossbow, Damage Speed 2.80
i also use a Quiver of a Thousand Feathers, ranged attack speed by 15%
the 1 trinket i use Abacus of Violent Odds every (2 Min Cooldown)
Use: Increases haste rating by 260 (16.49% @ L70) for 10 sec.
let me know what you think or how to improve on what i have...thanks
I can't comment on the macros, I've always been a big advocate of a manually timed 1:1.5 rotation.
As far as gear goes you have some really nice pieces but have fallen into a bit a of a trap on a few of them as well.
Mulgar's Warhelm is a really bad piece, especially for survival, the SMV quest reward is better [Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight] socketed with 3 +8 agility gems, until you can pick up the T4 helm.
As long as you are using a helm without a Meta gem socket ALL your sockets with +8 agility. Forget about those weak socket bonuses.
Get on an arena team! even if its a just a crappy 5v5 to get points each week and start building up for some gear, some arena pieces are really great for PVE, the S3 helm is better than T6 helm. S2 Shoulders > T5 Shoulders.
Obviously prince bow would be an upgrade, 2.8 is not a good speed for Survival. Even better would be Season 1 Crossbow which can you buy with honor.
Again your belt is not a good survival piece, if you can [Girdle of Treachery] from kara is an nice edition, I also believe there is a blue belt from heroic UB that is leather but i can't remember the name. I've always thought the belt slot is a great place for a leather item, if you're doing well in SSC then spending dkp on [Pattern: Belt of Deep Shadow] is a good idea, which I believe is much better than the mail belt [Pattern: Belt of the Black Eagle]
Gloves - Gruul gloves are nice but upgrade to [Gauntlets of Sniping] if you get the chance, they are slightly better than T5.
Spec - I would make the BM hunters in your guild spec into improved mark, they should be the ones getting that and not the SV hunter. Put points into GftT, and go 5/5 Efficiency. Drop Deflection, pick up Survival Instincts and Deterrence.
I would argue that a 0/20/41 build using 1:1.5 rotation with a multi, arcane priority will be higher dps than one which uses 5/5 improved arcane shot + 3/5 RWS but does not include multi. Taking ToTH in this situation allows you to use multi which ultimately yields higher dps.
As far as ToTH, this talent is amazing, I seriously don't understand how you are raiding without it. Over the course of our 4 Azgalor attempts last night I received over 40k Mana from ToTH (including trash & boss).
The closest we got to killing Azgalor was 40% (our first night of attempts) and during that fight ToTH returned over 3k mana.
I find that 6K is not an uncommon return for most boss fights, the longer ones yielding even more return.
Interestingly enough, back probably 15 pages ago we did the math on such a comparison, and it turned out that the dps from the two was approximately equal. I'd have to look back and see, but the theorycraft is definitely there. The argument that really convinced me to use the 5/5 imp arcane shot rotation was its simplicity. Unfortunately, I'm leaving town in an hour or so and don't have the time to find it. I'll tell you that you're incorrect to assume that the multishot rotation is obviously higher dps though.
As far as ToTH goes, I believe there are 2 types of fights: bosses your guild has on easy farm, and bosses they don't. For an easy farm boss, the slight dps loss from aspect of the viper isn't going to make a difference in whether you kill the boss or not (which, let's face it, is the only final goal). For a boss that's not easy farm, I'm going to be doing my full out dps at all times, popping pots on cooldown, etc. In this case my mana effeciency is irrelevant- a fel mana potion on cooldown will keep me going for as long as I need it to. In both cases, mana effeciency isn't a worry- one because you can use viper, the other because you're chain popping pots.
Despite all the worries about mana, I have neither Thrill of the Hunt nor Effeciency and still have no mana issues in raids.
Interestingly enough, back probably 15 pages ago we did the math on such a comparison, and it turned out that the dps from the two was approximately equal. I'd have to look back and see, but the theorycraft is definitely there. The argument that really convinced me to use the 5/5 imp arcane shot rotation was its simplicity. Unfortunately, I'm leaving town in an hour or so and don't have the time to find it. I'll tell you that you're incorrect to assume that the multishot rotation is obviously higher dps though.
As far as ToTH goes, I believe there are 2 types of fights: bosses your guild has on easy farm, and bosses they don't. For an easy farm boss, the slight dps loss from aspect of the viper isn't going to make a difference in whether you kill the boss or not (which, let's face it, is the only final goal). For a boss that's not easy farm, I'm going to be doing my full out dps at all times, popping pots on cooldown, etc. In this case my mana effeciency is irrelevant- a fel mana potion on cooldown will keep me going for as long as I need it to. In both cases, mana effeciency isn't a worry- one because you can use viper, the other because you're chain popping pots.
Despite all the worries about mana, I have neither Thrill of the Hunt nor Effeciency and still have no mana issues in raids.
Using Cheeky's Spreadsheet v39 with my gear.
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 EW, 3/3 ToTH)
Rotation: 1:1.5 (Arcane + Multi) (No KC)
DPS: 1339.99
Time to OOM: 162.64
Spec: 0/28/33 (Swaped Improved Mark for Efficiency)
Rotation: 1:1.5 (Arcane only) (No KC)
DPS: 1323.97
Time to OOM: 134.11
As you can see from the spreadsheet you get both higher dps and more time to OOM using 0/20/41 as opposed to 0/28/33 plus the bonus of readiness which has a lot of value as I previously mentioned. While I realize this is all theorycraft I usually stick to the spreadsheet
Maybe I'm just too competitive but I will never use Viper on a boss, regardless if it is Prince in Kara, I'd rather burn pots than Gimp by DPS. Switching to Viper from Hawk drops my dps by 40 in the spreadsheet, a huge drop.
IMO save yourself the extreme cost of using fel mana pots and spec ToTH, while I have some fel mana pots to use when absolutely necessary, with ToTH its almost never an issue to use super mana. Once my gear gets better I'll probably swap and go 3/3 EW and 2/3 ToTH, but then again having 3/3 ToTH still might be better because it allows you to drop Intel to wear leather pieces which result in higher overall DPS.
If you have time, try this experiment with your gear since it is much better than mine, the value of MT with T6 gear is likely diminished from some of the weak-sauce items I'm wearing
Thanks for the tune up info, yes there are several pieces i need to toss to the side.
Everytime i go to KZ , Legacy never drops for me, and the same thing goes for the T4 helm and bow from prince...
It's kinda funny 90% of the guys in my guild who have hunter alts, they have T4 helm and bow....lucky i guess.
I will scan over the whole fourm again and see what i missed, i did that before and spent time on stuff that changed with the patches, so...i will check it out again.
My best DPS on Kaz'Rogal as any spec is in that Hyjal log. Fair Teron DPS for Survival at 2078, decent Council DPS at almost 1900.
I'm 0/20/41 - I use the new Steady Shot rotation of 2:1 in a non-hasted state (and I will thread in arcane/multis when I can while in a non-hasted state) and I let the rotation macro drop me to 1:1 when it allows me to do so.
I am with a Druid and an Enchancement Shaman twsting GoA. We usually have 3 drums in the group. I go with Heroism then Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, then take a Haste pot. This keeps me hasted for over a minute of a fight afterwhich I go to the 2:1 rotation, switching back to 1:1 when DST procs.
I use Master Tact because I'm a firm believer that crits win DPS. My main purpose of Readiness is to allow myself to control when I am hasted as much as possible.
I don't use Kill Command simply because I have a problem when I use it, I lose up to 2 Auto Shots doing so.
This is how I do it and these are my results. I look at many WWS logs to see what other Survival hunters are doing and these numbers seem to be very competitive.
The guy above me runs the 0/27/34 build. I'd be curious to see what numbers those are putting up. I often wonder about a 7/20/34 for the extra haste now using the 2:1 steady macro
I can read this thread until I am blue in the face of people testing on Boom and punching numbers into their calculators and why specific ways are better. Can we have some guys continue off of this post and get some WWS logs of their battles showing solid DPS numbers, giving us a general idea of how they play their character in a raid as opposed to a vague 1:1.5 rotation answer.
Sunwell is around the corner and I would like to get the most DPS I can out of my build for it, so somebody else running through BT/Hyjal get some logs up here and tell us what it is you do.
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I have a questions, how does DST rate as a trinket for a Survival hunter?
It depends on the rotation you try to pull off. If you /castsequence a 1:1.5 rotation then its pretty useless comparatively as is IAotH. Having it and IAotH makes doing the 2:1 auto / steady spam work pretty darn well.
My best DPS on Kaz'Rogal as any spec is in that Hyjal log. Fair Teron DPS for Survival at 2078, decent Council DPS at almost 1900.
I'm 0/20/41 - I use the new Steady Shot rotation of 2:1 in a non-hasted state (and I will thread in arcane/multis when I can while in a non-hasted state) and I let the rotation macro drop me to 1:1 when it allows me to do so.
I am with a Druid and an Enchancement Shaman twsting GoA. We usually have 3 drums in the group. I go with Heroism then Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, then take a Haste pot. This keeps me hasted for over a minute of a fight afterwhich I go to the 2:1 rotation, switching back to 1:1 when DST procs.
I use Master Tact because I'm a firm believer that crits win DPS. My main purpose of Readiness is to allow myself to control when I am hasted as much as possible.
I don't use Kill Command simply because I have a problem when I use it, I lose up to 2 Auto Shots doing so.
This is how I do it and these are my results. I look at many WWS logs to see what other Survival hunters are doing and these numbers seem to be very competitive.
The guy above me runs the 0/27/34 build. I'd be curious to see what numbers those are putting up. I often wonder about a 7/20/34 for the extra haste now using the 2:1 steady macro
I can read this thread until I am blue in the face of people testing on Boom and punching numbers into their calculators and why specific ways are better. Can we have some guys continue off of this post and get some WWS logs of their battles showing solid DPS numbers, giving us a general idea of how they play their character in a raid as opposed to a vague 1:1.5 rotation answer.
Sunwell is around the corner and I would like to get the most DPS I can out of my build for it, so somebody else running through BT/Hyjal get some logs up here and tell us what it is you do.
With that macro spam, why bother with ToTH and beyond? I don't understand why you would spend more than 33 points in the Surv tree, especially when you can spend those points in Imp Hawk and FF.
It depends on the rotation you try to pull off. If you /castsequence a 1:1.5 rotation then its pretty useless comparatively as is IAotH. Having it and IAotH makes doing the 2:1 auto / steady spam work pretty darn well.
Well i use a 1:1.5 rotation but i do it by hand bar using a macro for steady shot. My generally rule of thumb is that if i am under 2sec attack speed due to haste i switch to 1:1 rotation due to the GCD will course my auto shot to clip.
I honestly haven't tried much in the way of 7/20/34 builds.
That was before 2.3.2 and I was clipping too many shots because my weapon speed was bouncing from 2.61 down to under 1.40. I just personally found this build to not be as ideal as a 0/20/41 build.
Friday night Hyjal - Wow Web Stats 2100+ on both Rage and Anetheron.
As I've posted before I'd love to see other Survival hunters with different build styles post some WWS and explain how they got those numbers.
I have Thrill and I use Illidan's bow to reduce the need to use my potion cool down for mana but rather to use my potion cooldowns for haste pots. Quick shots is great but not as great when you have Drums, DST and another form of haste up like Rapid Fire, Heroism or a Haste pot. To me Master Tact is the way to go and to get there I get some points in thrill.
I fail FD a fair amount and I have improved FD. If any of you have failed your first feign on Teron while your guild is trying to push DPS records then you know where I am coming from when I say it sucks. Readiness is useful for those situations and believe me they happen more then some people think.
Im pretty much new to the survival tree and only have kara level agi gear for the build. I was wondering if my wolfslayer rifle would be okay with the 1.1.5 shot rotation.
Im pretty much new to the survival tree and only have kara level agi gear for the build. I was wondering if my wolfslayer rifle would be okay with the 1.1.5 shot rotation.
Wolfslayer is rather fast and you WILL clip shots unless using a macro, or skip other specials. It's usable, but upgrade to 2.9 or 3.0 as fast as you can.
Originally Posted by Fenz
So is a macro totally out of the question for a Survival build? If not wich macro do you use?
Macros aren't really good for any shot rotation, but if you really have trouble clipping, use
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot; !Auto shot
and time Arcane and Multi manually
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Wolfslayer is rather fast and you WILL clip shots unless using a macro, or skip other specials. It's usable, but upgrade to 2.9 or 3.0 as fast as you can.
Macros aren't really good for any shot rotation, but if you really have trouble clipping, use
and time Arcane and Multi manually
Thanks, on earlier pages I found this macro: /castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1)
Is that the way to include AS or is manual still better?
It's probably better to shoot them manually, because if you need to reset the shot sequence for some reason (out of range, stuns, FD), the macro will wait until the cooldowns are up, or the reset time has passed, wasting a few seconds in between.
It also lowers your dps if you insist on using the macro under the effects of Rapid Fire or Quick Shots if you fire specials...
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Use that macro and many times on the 2nd steady shot you will have plenty of time to lay an Arcane or Multi out of it before it goes off. You choose to shoot more Steady Shots then Auto Shots with this macro but the DPS simply is better.
Also, to Whytefyst, I don't generally have the mageblood potion or the shaman in group with me for mana spring, (I'm usually stuck in the leftover group, as lilwolfe put it,) but do you really drop efficiency completely and not go 3/3 on Thrill? That just seems, I dunno, painful to me somehow.
My build is 0/20/41.
In the MM talents, I have the 20 to get the full 5 ranks in Mortal Shots with 5 points spent at every level. At level 2, I have 5/5 IHM instead of 5/5 Efficiency. I am the only hunter in the guild with IHM, so it is important that I have it since it is a good buff to our usually large melee raid make up.
In Survival talents, I have all the way up to Readiness. Yes, I realize that there are talents that I could spend the Readiness point on that would provide me with better DPS, but I roll with Readiness since it helps us out in many situations. One of the reasons being allowing me to use MD more often on pulls since we prefer for me to do the pulls for the following reasons:
1) I have the longer range, making many pulls less dangerous.
2) I do far more damage over the 3 shots of MD than our BM hunters do on average. So me performing the MD, usually provides much higher initial threat for the tank.
3) The 3 MD shots of the pull almost guarantees that EW is on the target by when everyone else starts attacking it.
Yes, it can be debated whether Readiness is worth the point over a another point in TotH or something else like Scatter Shot or Barrage, but it is what I have chosen to do to help our raids move more quickly and efficiently. Plus, it helps in other situations, such as allowing more MDs to the kiters of the striders during Vashj fights, etc.
Since I have a complete readiness build, that means that I only have 5 points possible that I can use on the TotH/WS/EW level. I chose 2 TotH and 3 EW because of the increased raid DPS. If I went 3 TotH and 2 EW, I would only gain 12.2 seconds until OOM but would lose 4.6 personal DPS with my EW uptime dropping from 99.13% by 5.75% to 93.38%. It may not seem like that 5.75% difference would mean much, but that is a change in my average EW proc from 285.27 AP fully buffed to 268.73 AP. This loss of 16.54 AP equates to about 5 DPS per physical DPS in the raid on that target. Since they are many ways that my mana situation can be improved in raids, it was decided to maximum the EW proc benefit.
Because of the sacrifices I have in personal mana regen as well as for increasing the EW proc, that is why I am usually placed in a group with both a druid with LotP and a shaman with Mana Spring and Improved GoA and SoE (for my pet and the melee). Doing this is also very helpful to the raid. Without these buffs, I personally lose 134 DPS, which means that my MDs will be a little less effective. In addition, I also lose about 2% on my mana regen from TotH and 1.4% on my EW uptime from the loss of crit. Finally, my average EW proc loses 31.3 AP, which is about 9.3 DPS per physical DPS on the target. If there are 8 other physcial DPS in the raid, including pets, not having me in a group with these buffs cost about 208 DPS for the raid, which would be hard to make up by putting a BM in this group instead.
So yes, my spec is a little painful mana wise since I need to use 2 mana oils, but as long as I have mana spring, I usually do not need the mageblood potion and do not have to use 4-5 mana pots per boss fight. But if I am without mana spring, then I need to use mageblood potions and more mana pots. Is this ideal for me personally? Probably not, but it is what I feel I need to do to be a better contributor to the raids, and our RLs usually understand that and take it into group considerations.
In fact, a large number of us do not, but for different reasons than the ones you list. I've found that while Thrill of the Hunt is a nice talent to grab, there are better DPS talents. I currently have no mana issues (using mainly the free mana pots from Skettis daily), and if I do I just pop a fel mana pot or two and keep going. If you look at my gear, I run almost no mp/5. The one caveat to this is that we run a full time ret pally, who keeps Judgement of Wisdom up on the boss at all times. I suppose that might be why I'm not having issues...? In any case, 3/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization is a much better choice of talents (in my humble opinion) than 3/3 Thrill of the Hunt. Mana can be obtained from other sources, 3% more damage cannot.
Master Tactician isn't worth it either. Not only do you have to spend points in Thrill of the Hunt (or something even more useless in raids) but you then spend 5 points for a ~3% crit increase. I don't know about you guys, but I currently run ~52% crit fully buffed in raid situations. That crit certainly isn't adding to my EW uptime significantly, and 3% crit is still inferior to 3% ranged damage.
Tradeoffs: Thrill of the Hunt, Master Tactician, and Readiness vs Scattershot, 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot (valuable for the tight 1:1.5 rotation I use), and 3/5 Ranged Weapon Specialization. Readiness is nice, but the only serious uses I found for it were resetting a FD when it resisted (easily fixed by planning ahead and feigning early), resetting Deterrence (aside from gimmick fights like Bloodboil or Essence of Souls, if the tank doesn't have it off you before Deterrence is down your raid is screwed already... and on Bloodboil/Souls unless you're absurdly short on rogues and have slow healers you shouldn't need it), and resetting Rapid Fire for a slight DPS buff. I'm sure there are differing opinions on this, but I prefer my current spec after spending time as all of the primary survival specs.
I seriously checked out your build and many others a little while ago, and for my current gear levels and raid buffs I recieve, the 0/20/41 build provides the greatest DPS/mana capability/EW benefit for me. Many of the other builds, such as yours, are still very good and may be better for me once I get different gear or different sets of raid buffs, but for now, 0/20/41 seems best for ME, and will keep it until analysis shows me that another build has become better for ME.
I actually ran with the 7/20/34 build for a while, and it was very good for me at that time. However, after the season 3 gear came out and I acquired a lot of new gear, I reevaluated the optimal build for my gear and typical raids buffs, and it lost out to 0/20/41 at that time.
01/25/08, 12:37 PM
Similar Threads
