Im back, we went to KZ last week and i got 3 upgrades, i bought a new trinket, and swapped out my shoulders.
0/20/41 Surv Spec still, i did re-spec and moved a few things around.
I now have 694 Agi and a 36% Crit, and 88 Hit, it was 93. Is 93 Hit all we need with 3/3 surefooted?
My bow is 2.90, my quiver is 15%

The macros i use:

First is CC and then No CC

/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot

/castsequence reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcance Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot

I was using these 2 and now they quit working for me:
First is CC and then No CC

#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot


#showtooltip Auto Shot
/cast reset=10 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot

Please let me know what you think about my gear, my spec, and my macros...THANKS

A few weeks ago I was in the same group with a Feral Druid and Enhancement Shaman with the same amount of drums going off as I am now but using a 1:1.5 rotation like anyone else that plays a Survival Hunter.

Frankly, 1:1.5 of any form reached its peak DPS. People are going support how great it is until the end because you have several threads and tons of people saying it is the optimal way to play your hunter. Despite all of the evidence supporting the 1:1.5 rotation you did not see 2k+ Survival Hunters.

Gonktarget from Elitist Jerks without any doubt (whom looks to use a 1:1.5 rotation) is the Survival hunter that anyone who is playing Survival should be trying to aspire to based off his gear choices, gem choices and his history of DPS in WWS Logs. There is another Survival hunter whom his guild slips my mind and I am sure somebody will be quick to add that to his name but a hunter named Monco has also posted what is considered very good Survival numbers. With saying that I have not seen (aside from Teron) either of those players break 2k dps, let alone 2100 dps on any fight.

This information comes from just looking through various BT/Hyjal top 60 WWS log fights. This is not to say either of those players at some point in time did not post those numbers using a 1:1.5 rotation during a non-record setting boss kill.

The general attitude among the hunter community is and pardon me for saying it, "Hey, my damage may suck compared to that BM hunter in my raid but I give the raid Expose Weakness which is the best DPS buff in the game and because I am a team player (unlike my BM hunter buddy who wasn't willing to go Survival) I did it to help my guild."

I would be really suprised if the majority of you tell me you haven't said it yourself or heard somebody say that before.

It seems pretty apparent (because nobody did it) that a 1:1.5 rotation whether you are spec'd 0/20/41 or 0/28/31 wasn't gonna cut it and the vibe I got from reading these forums was, "Welp, it is what it is, we buff the raid anyways".

I pursue'd several top 50 guild Survival/MM hunters in some attempt to discuss what everyone was doing and try to tweak or add to it. I tried to find Howitzer many times but he has apparently quit and I've also tried to find Gonktarget but with how everyone raids anymore (2 days a week) it is difficult to find anyone. Good thing Doomhammer is a pro server and we also have an exceptionally good Horde guild named Juggernaut. I went over and spoke to their main hunter (Crat) and we both came to a conclusion that the only way a Survival hunter would be considered a solid DPS spec would be to keep yourself hasted as much as possible and run a 1:1 rotation.

I ran with it and spec'd 7/20/34 and tested it using a 1:1.5 rotation during slow times. Doing this I again, still had the Druid and Shaman that I do now with drums. The damage was definately better but having DST, Quick Shots, Drums, Heroisms, Rapid Fires, Haste pots all going in different combinations it made it virtually impossible to keep-up an optimal shot rotation.

I went to 0/20/41 (the spec I am now) and tested it and found the Master Tact gave better results then having Quick Shots and FF. I've done both, I like 0/20/41 myself so I will keep that for now. Other people are chiming in and also partial to having Master Tact over Quick Shots.

Talk about this new 2:1 rotation and using /cast !Auto Shot and /cast Steady Shot and how the scaling of Steady Shot works with your gear and the obvious benefits of 4 piece T6 bonus I went ahead and tried it out for myself. I ran with it, made some adjustments and I am where I am with it.

I'm not here to preach to anyone that what I am doing is the end all way to do things. I posted what has thus far been some of the highest Survival numbers ever seen before to show that a Survival hunter can actually do a considerable amount of DPS and that your slot in the raid isn't to just put Expose Weakness up and collect all of the mail loot your Enhancement Shamans already own.

I believe at this point I am on to something and I would like to improve upon that which is why I read these boards like anyone else. I will be blunt and say a simple 1:1.5 rotation alone is not the answer, it will not work, period. If you want to tell me that it does then I ask that you post your WWS logs showing that standing there unhasted (because there are posts of people in this very thread telling people to not even use any types of haste because it isn't as good as a 2.61 speed 1:1.5 using RWS...) is getting you 2k DPS consistantly.

For those of you who have been keeping up with this thread over the last few days and make sense of what it is I am trying to explain in these walls of text and plan on either trying it out for yourselves or trying some variation of it in hopes to improve upon it, I invite you to post those results so that we can see them. It works best for you to post Hyjal and BT boss kills because it allows us to use the same mobs for comparison. Even if you are in a guild that is new in the T6 content and you try this out and find that your DPS went up from what it usually is, then post the log and explain what you did.

Fortunately, my hunter was not leveled by the Chinese recently and I have been around long enough to understand everything that comes with a 1:1.5 rotation. Obviously, had I been convinced that it was the very best way to play a Survival hunter I wouldn't be showing you the logs I have.

I can't speak for the others who have posted in this thread, but you still have yet to address the issue I've brought forward in a previous post, with respect to the behavior of auto shot since the last major patch. The shot rotation visualization that I copy and pasted a few pages back has been the bible by which most of the current day hunter shot mechanics have been built on. Now suddenly that's inaccurate, and you can get 2 steady shots off prior to an auto shot with little to no clipping, meanwhile this game breaking change goes undocumented by Blizzard. Doesn't that raise a flag?

The point I've been trying to make to you is that you're current non-hasted shot rotation is the result of an auto shot bug. When 2.4 hits, we should revisit what you've built up to be the ultimate survival shot rotation when non-hasted.

Thats some very nice info, i had to flip back a few pages as well to get the whole story.
I can out damage some BM hunters, when i have a SP and a Sham in the group, if im stuck in a group with others my DPS is gonna fall below the BM hunter 9 of 10 times, i am the only surv hunter in my guild, that i know of.
I think my role as a Surv hunter does help the guild, we each have a role to play in the raid.
4/5 T4 pieces i wear 3 of them, i have the chest from Hydross, gloves from Gruul and my dps is not that bad, well i hope it isn't. My play style favors SV/MM and i have never tried the BM end of it.


Well thats my Story... see you guys soon

So I scanned through the numerous pages that are listed in the Survival Hunter's Mechanics thread and didnt really find anything as to whats a good amount of agility to have. I know it is ultimately going to depend on the level of progression the guild has reached, but my guild is about to start doing Hyjal and BT. We just killed Kael two weeks ago and Rage last week. I currently have about 828 agi in pve gear unbuffed. Is that a good number to be at?

I then also got into the discussion about balance between stacking as much agi as possible and losing a ton of ap. I mean the survival build is focused on buffing the raid right. So buffed with 1000 agi is right at 250 ap for phsyical damage and with that much agility the crit rating with buffs is going to be relatively high and assuming that the hunter has the 3/3 Expose Weakness (EW) it should be up for most of the fight on single target bosses. So I guess my real question is if you have really low ap but super high agility your dps will be much lower. So once you've reached a certain amount of agility at what point do you start trying to up your attack power? And what is the amount of agility you want to be at unbuffed?

You are missing the boat here CSM.

Yes, I use this macro for my 2:1 rotation and what I have tried to explain to you in a post is that it doesn't matter. Right now if you use

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

You can get 2 Steady Shots and it pushes your Auto shot back by .5 seconds.

Using just the Steady Shot button right out of your spellbook you get the same results.

For some people doing this they do less DPS then using a tradional castsequence macro and a 1:1.5 rotation because their gear does NOT support the increased use of Steady Shot.

Blizzard hotfixed the 'bug' that was happening with our macros a couple of weeks ago. They re-addressed hunter macros with a fix to the /castsequence in patch 2.3.3 -

And for the sake of argument we can use the traditional 1:1.5 rotation inplace of the 2:1.

To make it clear a 1:1 rotation under the ideal circumstances (hasted) is with no question the very best means of producing DPS.

You have most fights running 2.5 - 3 minutes. Right now the best I've figured out is to keep myself hasted for 1.5 minutes of the fight. For atleast 1/2 of the fight I am in what is considered to be an ideal weapon speed to properly execute a 1:1 rotation. In short you've now just become a BM hunter but instead of having a buffed pet you have more AP from LR/SI then your BM counterpart and you are going to have a crit rating that is (to keep round numbers) 10% better then your BM counterpart. Common sense will tell you that the Survival Hunter is going to out DPS the BM hunter in those conditions because you in your own round about way just obtained one of the key strengths of the BM Spec which is speed.

After that, all you need to do is sustain what you have created.

So the questions here is what is the best way to keep yourself doing a 1:1 rotation? What is the best way to sustain the damage once the 1:1 rotation is over? Which spec best supports this style of play? Can Teron's gun play a major role in our DPS.

Whether you are using 2:1 or 1:1.5 rotation it doesn't matter. If executed properly and with 1-2 DST procs there is no reason either of those rotations will not be sufficient enough to make it till the end of the fight after that 1.5 minutes of haste is over.

CSM-EH if you are playing your spec the way you have created it by having Imp Arcane, Barrage then you should have no real interest at all about keeping yourself hasted for any lengthy period of time because it would then cause you to not utilize the purpose of your spec. What I am saying to you is that a slow and old 1:1.5 rotation at 2.61 weapon speed no matter how you spec for it will not give you the results that you are trying to achieve.

If they did, somebody would have posted their logs or pointed all of us in the direction of the logs that show the guy using this type of spec and rotation producing those numbers. This would have been done long ago and all of us including myself would be following what that person is doing.

I want a 1:1 rotation as much as possible - When I can't have what I want I use a 2:1 rotation and if for some reason a 2:1 rotation is not available I use a 1:1.5 rotation and I am confident the results will be very similar because the amount of time I am ever having to use a 2:1 or 1:1.5 rotation is so limited the DPS difference between the two for that short amount of time is minimal when it is factored into the entire course of the fight.

I thought yesterday I was able to clear this up with you. Hopefully after addressing this for a second time I have.

From my limited experience with being close to you in progression (we are working on Kael currently and should have him soon), 828 agi seems like a good amount for where you are at. As a comparison, I believe that unbuffed with just AoH on, I have 864 agi, 2174 AP, 35.81% crit (these may be a little off since I couldn't use the armory since it was hosed for my character) in my PvE gear.

As far as knowing how to balance agility, crit, and AP, I find it to be a difficult task to perform in your head or on the back of a napkin. I suggest using some type of tool, such as Cheeky's hunter spreadheet (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t9816-hu...-_development/), to help you see the potential pluses and minuses of gear and gem choices. My method is that I record, my DPS, time to OOM, EW uptime, and average EW proc for my different choices and make the appropriate tradeoff analysis to determine which item to use. As a general rule, I usually choose more agi than anything else since it increases your crit and AP and unlike crit and AP, it scales with both LR and BoK.

To Kurkis:

I agree with you, on the point that acquiring haste to permit a 1:1 rotation with 4 piece T6 leads to the best possible survival dps. This is why I hope Blizzard puts a ~2.2 speed weapon into Sunwell (not holding my breath).

As to the 1:1.5 rotation supposedly being "poor" for dps, I'd disagree. It's obviously not quite as optimal as a perfect 1:1, but I hardly think 1972 dps (WWS) is poor. I wish I had more to link, but I tend to sit out much of Hyjal and early BT for our other hunters as of late. Note that I'm still using BB + Hourglass and not BC + MotB and I still need another Dagger of Bad Mojo. I use Mysterious Arrows over Timeless (for farm content I'm a cheap bastard), and I don't bother using any extra consumables over Major Agility and Warp Burgers. My ping is roughly 300 MS average, with random spikes (wireless ftl) and I use nary a macro and consequently clip the occasional shot when my latency changes. Not to mention I rarely get the optimal group of Feral/Shaman/BM/BM/Myself. If I went balls-to-the-walls with optimal gear, consumables, ammunition and group comp, I'm pretty sure 2.1k dps with a primarily 1:1.5 rotation is entirely reasonable.

But, damnit, I still want a 2.1-2.3 speed ranged weapon.

Poor is going to be viewed differently by different people. Sure for a Survival hunter 1972 is good and you could perhaps push that to 2100 with a 1:1.5 rotation. I haven't seen it done yet but I do not doubt it is possible.

You could then respec the following week to BM and using a 1:1 rotation beat your personal best as a Survival with no problem.

It looks to me like the 1:1.5 rotation will not really ever compete with a BM hunter of equal gear/experience running a 1:1 rotation on any sort of a consistant basis. Hence the word poor. It is a poor rotation for trying to compete with BM hunter DPS. I'm obviously trying to compete with BM dps here, not what is considered good Survival DPS. Some of those fights I posted definately compete and in some cases surpass most BM hunter dps. This tells me that the Survival spec has a chance to be a superior DPS spec like the BM spec is as opposed to a "good" DPS spec.

When I say if there are guys out there running a 1:1.5 rotation and posting good numbers, I mean good numbers in relation to what your BM hunters run. Which on Gorefiend most of your BM hunters are running 2100-2300 dps with exceptions. There are always exceptions so when I say something like the general attitude about hunters just means most people are this way, not all.

My Teron DPS was 2078 and that is poor to me when trying to compete with BM hunters and I need to do better and will see if that happens tonight. I think it is possible to hit 2200-2300 on Teron simply because I was able to break 2100s on the Hyjal fights.

Hope that clears things up - I'm not saying anyone with a 1:1.5 shot rotation sucks, is doing it wrong, can't play WoW I am just saying that I it is my opinion that rotation will never be able to hang with the well played BM hunters in our world.

About the highest DPS I saw with a 1.5:1 on a boss fight that did not have an ability that boosted my damage was around 1900, that being Teron Gorefiend/Rage Winterchill. I've been using the 2:1 rotation for the last month or so, and while I don't see a huge damage increase (some but not a ton), I have a much better mana efficiency for basically the same damage. Last Winterchill I pulled 1850 dps with a scorpid pet I was leveling loyalty for PvP purposes and didn't use Kill Command. Next time I'll have my Wind Serpent with me and would expect to pull around 2k, and lord help us all if we ever get a feral druid in the hunter group.


I had posted this in an obscure thread on the WoW hunter forums in regards to 1.5:1 and 2:1 comparisons, maybe here would have been a better place:

"My best source to compare was Azgalor as I had the exact same buffs and did not get doomed this week or last week.

Using my 1.5:1 rotation with multi/arcane weaving, last week I netted 1402dps on the fight, thats with a shadow priest, at no time was I forced to interrupt my rotation or ran out of mana.

Using my 2:1 rotation of steady/auto this week I netted 1421dps on the fight. We didn't have a shadow priest this time, a warlock instead, so other than Blood pact, no extra or new buffs, and much less mana regen. I used only one major mana pot the entire fight and never ran out of mana.

While this is only one comparison, being that many of the variables were controlled, I can at least draw from this that the DPS is about the same, but the DPM is much better in 2:1 when its just steady spam vs arcane/multi.

A side effect from this, is with more raid testing to back up these conclusions, is that the BT hunter trinket becomes infinitely better than it originally appeared to be using 2:1. With a 15% proc rate and 40 Steadys per minute, it will have an average of 6 procs per minute. While an ideal situation they wouldn't overwrite, in reality they do, just like EW, ImpAoTH, etc. The ideal situation would provide 48s of uptime every 60s. That won't be the case except for the rare times that you get extremely lucky. I would (without doing all the number punching that it would take) expect 30s or so of uptime over 60s. That effectively averages out to be 137.5 ap.

When compared to Berserker's Call, the static 90ap + (360ap x 20s uptime /120s cooldown) averages out to be 150ap if the activate is used when its up every time. So in comparison to raw numbers, Berserker's Call still edges it out, but keep in mind that while that AP averages out, its more bursty, vs the BT trinket which will be a more consistent increase. The advantage this gives to Berserker's call is that timed up with rapid fire it can be a very nice damage increase over a short duration. The advantage this gives to the BT trinket is that it doesn't get screwed over in the event you have to move/interrupt/stop damage for something, which could hamper the effectiveness of the activated Berserker's Call. "


I would not say that 1.5:1 is poor dps given that top 5 dps along with providing the raid (including the BM hunters and pets) 300ap from EW is pretty damn good, but I enjoy doing all that and not being mana starved by using the 2:1.

Anyone able to help me out, I seem to have the AGI but I dont have the Crit that all of you are getting. Thoughts?

Your hit rating is way over the top. Surefooted, and 128 hit rating is too much. I would personally aim to pick up more agility gear. Your ring, and regemming your gear for agility gems. Change your scope to a crit scope.

Aye, it's a given that optimal BM > optimal SV. My EW more than makes up the difference in raid dps, though, so that's perfectly fine. Sort of how Blizzard doesn't want PvE hemo to surpass PvE combat for personal dps, but allows the hemo debuff to give a single hemo rogue more overall raid dps.

Blizzard itemization of ranged weapons into a very narrow range is the main aggravation factor.

I can't really comment on the macros, everyone seems to have a different idea on what macros work and what does not as far as 1:1.5 goes. IMO you cannot easily macro the rotation and it is better to do it manually. I use a steady shot macro and then manually weave in arcane and multi.


As fear as gear goes you're gear is looking pretty good, there are some upgrades you could make though.

Trinekts --> Really try to get a bloodlust brooch, I believe its only 50 badges which you can acquire very quickly with the occasional kara/ZA run. You could also replace the silver cross with the Hourglass until you can pick up Berserker's Call from ZA or [Tsunami Talisman] from SSC.

Belt / Bracers --> This is area where you need to change those pieces as a survival hunter, gear with no agility on it is not ideal especially when they're are several pieces you can pick up. For bracers I'd go with [Steadying Bracers] from badges or just wait until [Bands of the Celestial Archer] drop from SSC/TK trash.

A belt upgrade you can grab [Girdle of Treachery] from Kara or [Dunewind Sash] from heroic UB.

Other than that your gear is looking pretty good expect for some gemming choices. You will almost always want to ignore socket bonuses and just go for +8 agility gems. You should have 2 yellow gems, 2 blue gems to meet your meta requirement and the rest +8 agility gems. For yellow put either +4 agility/+4 hit, or +8 AP/+4 Crit. For blue always use +4 agility/+6 stam. For your current gear set you are slightly below the hit cap of 96, so I would replace 2 yellow sockets with +4 agility +4 hit.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the gear upgrade pointers.
I hope to see the Bands of the Celestial Archer and the Tsunami Talisman soon.
We have Hydross on farm and we are working on Lurker, i hope we get him this week.

I will start saving my badges again, the last trinket i bought cost 75. So i need to go back to KZ/ZA.

Do you use this macro?

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I think i will give it a try and see what happens tonight in SSC.
Thanks Again

Depending on gear and raid setup, each one of us can test and see what works best for him. I mention this, because most of the people that get involved in such discussions (which rotation is better) support one or another view, having in mind their gear and their guild's usual raid setup.

To make it specific, in our raids we usually use 1 hunter and in his group there is a SP, so mana efficiency is not an issue. During the last months i am BM (i switch between BM and survival every few months, depending on needs) and i have been using the so called 2:1 rotation, although i don't like calling it 2:1.

It produced very good results for me, using DST and Ashtongue talisman of Swiftness. During being hasted, even by just IAotH, it was being transformed to a 1-1 rotation.

The "philosophy" behind this is obvious and simple. It's trying to be hasted as much possible (Drums, DST, e.t.c.) and utilize your steady shot as much possible (due to T6 4set bonus and due to increased trinkets procs). I want to keep my post short and to the point, so i'll not give lists of numbers, but just some general conclusions/remarks i noticed during testing (note that i am talking about a BM hunter with a 3.0 speed ranged weapon)

a. using the 2:1 you take better advantage of haste effects like (DST) procs
b. Ashtongue talisman procs a lot more

The difference is not huge, but it's good.

Note that i am not trying to prove anything, i am just giving my view and experience on something i am doing for some time now. You can try yourselves (if you have a SP in your party) and see if it works for you too. Of course take in mind that i am talking about having 4set bonus T6 and using the Ashtongue trinket.

So, my experience says that the 2-1 is good for BM hunters too, under the circumstances i have explained above.

No - you'll be constrained by GCD and your haste procs will have no impact if you're firing 2 Steadies per 1 Auto.

Trohck is exactly right. You shouldn't be trying to compete directly with a BM hunter, we will smoke you while giving ourselves carpel tunnel.

EW (and sometimes improved hunters mark) is your main asset.

With our typical raid makeup Monco or Trohck by far has the highest overall damage contribution.

2 Rogues (both doing 2k+ dps)
1 Feral druid (1500+ dps)
1 DPS Warrior (1500+ dps)
1 Enhancement Shaman (1500+ dps)
3 Hunters
2 Prot warriors
1 Prot/Ret Shaman

His EW means 200 extra AP for everyone there (2800 total). That is a huge bump to our DPS as well as tank threat.

When haste is up, the 2:1 becomes a 1-1 (as i have said in my previous post). Now you'll wonder why i say that with 2:1 you take a better advantage of haste effects, even when it becomes a 1:1 under haste.

I am not sure, all i know is that i took a lot of Dr.Boom 2min logs (using DST on half of them and not using it on other half). From these 2mins i was keeping 1,5min of log file, making sure that if DST had proced during the end of the first 1,5min of the test, to include all the time that proc lasted. I did this, so as not to appear that i had X number of DST procs in the log and a portion of the last proc's time to be left out.

This "small scale experiment" revealed to me that in 1,5min and with the same amount of DST procs, the 2:1 rotation was producing more shots than the 1:1 rotation and additionally, with the 2:1 rotation, each DST proc was producing more extra shots.

With the 1:1 rotation the gain was 1xsteady and 1x auto (=2 shots) and with the 2:1 rotation the gain was 4x autos (=4 shots). (By "gain" i mean the difference between using DST and not using it)

Comparing the shots the 2 rotations could produce (using DST) i got the following numbers: in 1,5min using the 1:1 and getting 3x DST procs my steady-auto ratio was 43-43=86 shots ( or 0,95 shots/sec). While with the 2:1 and 3x DST procs i had 58-36=94 shots (or 1,04 shots/sec). By the way, 58-36 is not 2:1 and this is why i said in my previous post that i don't like the term "2:1" for this style of shots, as it's not really a strict rotation.

Maybe we miss something about our mechanics at the moment, so we can't explain why i got that results in my tests, or maybe my data got somehow corrupted or i did some random error and the numbers i present are not correct. My opinion is to respect the things about our mechanics that we already know, but still also test in practice.

I am not interested to go back and test again, because i'd use this free style abuse of steady anyway, due to steady's superior damage (due to the T6 4pc bonus) and the increased proc chance of the Ashtongue talisman. So, if anyone is interested to support my numbers (by his own tests) or prove them wrong, you know where the Doctor is. I'd be interested to know.

A 1.5 minute test for the DST isn't nearly long enough. You need a test with thousands of shots.

What is the bonus from that macro compared to just Steady Shot from your spellbook besides the removing of the errorcrap?
I tried it tonight and I could do the 2:1 with 0,6-0,8sec clipping (bigtrouble), but if I just spammed it I was chaining Steady Shots over 5 seconds sometimes. To me this macro doesn't seem to add anything over just /cast Steady Shot.

@orsraunia
What was speed of weapon you used for test ?

@Soulcow
Macro is different from plain steady. When I did used plain steady I got just long string of steadies sometimes up to 6 in row without autos. Macro produce 2:1 much more consistently, though I can get 3:1 too. To do 2:1 consistently make small 0.2 sec pause after every second steady, but hit macro again when auto is still not completed to start next cycle as early as possible.
This behaviour can change any time, but for 2:1 use macro instead of plain steady from book.

I am still using 1:1.5 as it gives better results for me.