And, although it's expensive and probably won't be available from your guild for awhile: [Belt of Deep Shadow] (Nether Vortex craftable BoE)
I stopped using macros after 2.2. They became increasingly unreliable. I've been tempted to try the 2:1 trick, but I suspect I don't have the gear and groups for that. I don't actively raid anymore, so take this with a grain of salt.
@orsraunia
What was speed of weapon you used for test ?
I provided this information in a previous post of mine, but forgot to include it in the last one, sorry.
The weapon speed was 3.0. Before people jump to conclusions, the following is a part of a recent post of mine
"Depending on gear and raid setup, each one of us can test and see what works best for him. I mention this, because most of the people that get involved in such discussions (which rotation is better) support one or another view, having in mind their gear and their guild's usual raid setup."
I am not saying what i do is the best thing and all should do the same, i am saying that i work with what i have for the best result possible and all this, in my humble opinion.
What i have at the moment is a 3.0 speed weapon and a SP in my group, so i try to make the best out of this by
using DST, Ashtongue talisman and the steady shot abuse, that people mention as a 2:1 rotation. But it's not a rotation and it produces an about 1,6:1 ratio (this ratio varies).
Last edited by orsraunia : 01/31/08 at 5:28 AM.
Reason: grammar
Very interesting discussion. Right now, our guild progressing in ssc, hydros and lurker down, we are going fot the other bosses. Moro hopefully down in the reset. I just providing this info, so others can see where we are. Beacuse i have not got T6 4/6, i use 1:1.5 rotation. In teh last 2 raids i tried 2 shot rotation.
1 (tk 3/4 farm) with the usual old /castsequence, and i have imp. arcane shot. I didn't got ench. shammy or feral druid.
You can test the 2:1, you don't need T6 to get the mana efficiency out of the rotation, and it will still be within the ballpark of 1.5:1 damage wise. That said, Trohck and myself both have found that the macro that allowed for 2:1 appears to have been broken, with testing I was able to shoot 5-8 steadies before an auto would fire using mousewheel macro spam. I'm sure you could make it 2:1 by timing it manually and allowing the auto to fire, but that defeats the purpose of having a macro in the first place as you are bringing human reaction time back into the mix. For now we've both went back to 1.5:1 as it is just as serviceable as 2:1, we just have to keep a closer eye on the mana bar now.
I saw the 2.1 macro as well, i also only have 4/5 T4 pieces, i only wear 2, the helm and the legs.
The gloves i wear are from Gruul and the shoulders i wear are from KZ.
I tried the 2.1 macro and it worked for me.
It didnt seem to ever clip and or cause problems, i will keep on testing it and now i want to try yours out, thanks.
You can test the 2:1, you don't need T6 to get the mana efficiency out of the rotation, and it will still be within the ballpark of 1.5:1 damage wise. That said, Trohck and myself both have found that the macro that allowed for 2:1 appears to have been broken, with testing I was able to shoot 5-8 steadies before an auto would fire using mousewheel macro spam. I'm sure you could make it 2:1 by timing it manually and allowing the auto to fire, but that defeats the purpose of having a macro in the first place as you are bringing human reaction time back into the mix. For now we've both went back to 1.5:1 as it is just as serviceable as 2:1, we just have to keep a closer eye on the mana bar now.
Thannks for the answer. Well, mana is always a thing which is never enough In the last few fights i'm using [Recipe: Fel Mana Potion] and luckilly i can manage mana load most of the time. OF course it's not cheap, and i usully waiting - likefor the Saviour - for the potion cooldown at the end of the time, but it's ok
The second macro did work for me, it seemed to clip some in Gruuls. I will stick with the first macro and manually weave: Arcane Shot, Multi-shot in as needed.
You can test the 2:1, you don't need T6 to get the mana efficiency out of the rotation, and it will still be within the ballpark of 1.5:1 damage wise. That said, Trohck and myself both have found that the macro that allowed for 2:1 appears to have been broken, with testing I was able to shoot 5-8 steadies before an auto would fire using mousewheel macro spam. I'm sure you could make it 2:1 by timing it manually and allowing the auto to fire, but that defeats the purpose of having a macro in the first place as you are bringing human reaction time back into the mix. For now we've both went back to 1.5:1 as it is just as serviceable as 2:1, we just have to keep a closer eye on the mana bar now.
I saw the same thing last night with the marco. It would continue to clipp autoshot for sometimes up to 10 secs. I hadnt used that marco in awhile but before it was doing exactly 2 SS: 1 Auto. i can still do it manually but what a pain compared to just using my macro.
Just as we seamed to have got a perfect SV macro in the works it seams to have changed its mechanics somehow. Some random testing on Boom revealed some interesting bits and piesces.
Using just AotH as a buff, quartz and recount.
1) Just random buttton//key mashing produced missed autos and sometimes 3 SS in a row with no autos, as a couple of others have observed. 5 tests to OOM resulted in 75% SS to 25% AS (or 3 : 1) due to the "missed" autos
2) Concentrating button spam at the end of the SS cast however completely negated this quirk and I got back to a more or less expected 65% 35% SS AS with a DPS increase in the order of 150
Now the next observation could well be a godsend to all you Ausies Kiwis etc who consistently play at 300 ish latency. Whilst virus checker ran my latency dropped to +/- 300 and quartz duly showed me a dirty great portion of red as intended. What was very interesting is that I now didn't need to mash buttons at all, a simple click at any point along the last 1/3 of a SS cast ensured the next auto cast properly. DPS did drop a tad but hey should be good for latency players.
should be a great boost to SV raiding, using 4 x T6 and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] is superb synergy to the 2 : 1 macro, if we could iron out the AS casting quirk...
Basically turning the second /cast into aa /castsequence of one thing. This has been working pretty much perfectly and does a better job of dropping itself down to 1:1 while I am hasted. It also works fine with a kill command on top of everything,
In my experience i have found that, Tsunami Talisman + Hourglass of the Unraveller, are by far the best combo.
I hear people talking about Bloodlust Broach, for me it seems quite clear why Hourglass is better.
Bloodlust = Passive AP + AP boost, once per 2 mins.
Hourglass = Passive crit + AP boost, once per min on average. ( 45 sec hidden CD and 10 sec duration) so often it is exactly once per min and sometimes it is once per 63 secs or so.
The same goes for Tsunami Talisman, but i don't think it is in question really.
Due to the high proc rate of both the Hourglass and Tsunami, they often proc at the same time. mmmmmmmm nice!
So i am wondering, is there something i am missing when thinking that Hourglass + Tsunami are the best combo?
Because to me it seems quite clear that 2 x trinkets with passive crit, that proc once per min (on average ), is better than 1 or 2 x trinkets that have passive AP and a 2 min CD.
In my experience i have found that, Tsunami Talisman + Hourglass of the Unraveller, are by far the best combo.
I hear people talking about Bloodlust Broach, for me it seems quite clear why Hourglass is better.
I find it difficult to definitely state which trinket is better. It depends on too many factors, such as your other gear, your spec, your raid group/buffs, rotation, and your personal goals (often tradeoff between personal DPS and higher EW proc). For instant, if you have a relatively low crit rate compared to your AP, the 2 crit trinkets may be better, but if you have a relatively high crit rate, they may not. Also, do not forget [Berserker's Call] from ZA, which is a direct upgrade over [Bloodlust Brooch], while [Tsunami Talisman] is meant to be a direct upgrade of [Hourglass of the Unraveller].
Now with just looking at the trinkets in your question and to attempt to provide a direct comparison amongst them, it may be true that the crit trinkets proc about 1 per min while the AP trinket is usable every 2 mins, but that does not mean that the crit trinkets are twice as good. They only have a 10s duration, while the AP trinket’s duration is 20s. Thus, with assuming using the AP trinket every time it is available, the duration of the crit trinket is roughly that of the AP trinket. Thus, we can roughly compare the actual proc benefits:
As can be seen, [Bloodlust Brooch] does provide less AP proc than the 2 crit trinkets, but that is only part of the story. The other part is the passive benefits. As a rough rule of thumb for simple comparison (of course, we all know it's more complicated than this), 40 AP = 1% crit. Thus, the passive 72 AP from [Bloodlust Brooch] is roughly equal to 1.80% crit, which is greater than the 1.45% crit from [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and 1.72% crit from [Tsunami Talisman]. This benefit in passive stats [Bloodlust Brooch] helps to make up, and in some cases overcome, the proc benefits of the crit trinkets. Furthermore, not only does [Berserker's Call] have a “better” AP proc, its passive 90 AP, which is roughly equivalent to 2.25% crit, is by far the best trinket of the 4. Below, I convert the benefits of the trinkets into total AP benefit per second as a basis of comparison to show the personal DPS benefit of each.
As an example using my hunter with his current armory and typical raid buffs, as expected from the above table, the 2 crit trinkets together perform a little worse than the [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman]. The latter combination results in +4.53 personal DPS with a -0.39 AP for average EW proc (due to the loss in crit). Since there cannot be 39 (4.53/(0.39*0.3)) other physical in a 25-man raid, the latter combination provides overall better raid DPS. Now of course, this assumes that I am using [Bloodlust Brooch] everytime it is available. If I am not, then the former combination may prevail. Personally, until I can get some of the better proc trinkets, I prefer one use trinket to control when I get the AP boost. I pull a lot, and it is nice to have the AP boost to improve the benefits of MD, and I also like to use the trinket when doing a Rapid Fire when both are available.
For completeness though, note that for a Survival hunter’s overall DPS contribution to the raid, that using the 2 AP trinkets is not better than using the [Tsunami Talisman] and [Berserker's Call]. As the table above implies, the 2 AP trinkets should not generally provide better personal DPS, but due to my gear and spec, they do provide slightly better DPS (about 0.29); however, the loss in crit results in –0.56 AP on EW proc. Thus, as long as there are at least 2 (0.29/(0.56+.3)) other physical DPS in the raid, the [Tsunami Talisman] and [Berserker's Call] combination is better.
I had planned to also do the comparison on your gear and spec with assuming certain raid buffs, but the armory went down after I had only looked at a few of your items. Since you are also 0/20/41 specced, I assume that we have pretty similar talents, and although you are a little further along than me in gear, I would expect that the results I see with my character will roughly hold for yours as well.
Last edited by Whitefyst : 02/03/08 at 4:23 PM.
Reason: Fixed mispelling in Berserker's Call
I'm no expert theorycrafter, but in light of this 2:1 rotation that I've been reading about here, I have a question:
Does this mean that there is a different optimal bow/gun speed for hunters using this 2:1 rotation? Kurkis, I know you mentioned using many consumables to hasten your speed down to a 1:1 rotation, but do you plan your weapon speed around this, or is it just a complete non-factor for you?
We only regularly raid with 1 shaman in our guild, who is usually put in the caster DPS group, and with a shortage of leatherworkers on my server (I'm thinking about dropping a profession to pick it up) and bad luck with trinket drops, I find myself limited right now on haste options.
Therefore, for hunters like me who have to give increased weight to the unhastened part of each fight, should I try to get a slow weapon to get as close as possible to a pure 2:1 rotation without clipping, should I shoot for a 1:1 rotation, or does it not matter much at all in the long run?
Our raid leader and main tank has had computer problems lately, so I will probably be in my PVP spec/gear for much of this week, but for reference, I'm specced 0/20/41 with a mix of SSC/TK/Kara gear.
Just as we seamed to have got a perfect SV macro in the works it seams to have changed its mechanics somehow. Some random testing on Boom revealed some interesting bits and piesces.
Using just AotH as a buff, quartz and recount.
1) Just random buttton//key mashing produced missed autos and sometimes 3 SS in a row with no autos, as a couple of others have observed. 5 tests to OOM resulted in 75% SS to 25% AS (or 3 : 1) due to the "missed" autos
2) Concentrating button spam at the end of the SS cast however completely negated this quirk and I got back to a more or less expected 65% 35% SS AS with a DPS increase in the order of 150
Tib, contribute to the hunter debates on .gany, God Damnit!
On topic;
After being a macro-spammer until around the time of our first Illidan kill (early December), I've been practicing my timing for near-perfect 1.5:1 rotations, so I've not experimented with the 2:1 cycle. If the macro is prone to chaining steadies, is it really worth working on adjusting to a manual 2:1 (baring in mind that Illidan hates me and has yet to give up my chest for 4piece t6), or rather to keep to maintaining the 1.5:1 until the bugs and inconsistencies in /cast !Autoshot are ironed out?
Edit:
Ok, this has been piquing my interest for a while, so finally some tests were called for. I tried the macro posted earlier on this page:
Worked a treat, near perfect numbers in a short series of tests (button bashing rather then mouse-wheel, since mine's broken...). After trying that, I swapped back to manual 1.5:1. The first thing I noticed was a near instant 10% gain in DPS, but my mana shot down much faster. Rather then running to OOM, I ran 2-minute tests (using Hunters Mark as a starting move, and feigning when it expired). With 2:1, I was hovering around 55% mana. 1.5:1, and I was all but OOM at the end of the 2-minute period.
Basic conclusions? I need 4piece T6 ASAP (got the DKP for a guaranteed win on the next drop, though). With that, 2:1 will be interesting to try, and will let me use Hawk for much longer with my usual mana regen and potting setups. I'm not convinced that that +10% steady shot damage will increase my DPS to outmatch my 1.5:1 cycle. If I get a 10% boost going manual over a macro, then the set bonus boosts my 2:1 rotations DPS by 6.66%. But in turn, it boosts my manual cycle's DPS, so it's not quite making up the damage numbers in my mind. Still, going to be interesting to try it when we're back in BT this week. At the very least, the chance to spend more time with Hawk could boost my DPS above manual timing, if 1.5:1 forces me into Viper. I'll come back with some observations.
Has anyone looked at the benefits of EW with GoA compared to Windfury for fury warriors?
Typically my guild runs with a melee specific group. The makeup is typically Enhance, Feral, Rogue, Rogue, Fury with shaman's rotated in for Bloodlusts. Unfortunately that's our only group that has a chance at getting GoA and if we have another feral it's typically in the Tank group as an OT. Thus I usually end up in a group with all casters and have little to no group synergy.
I've spec'd surv for raid benefits and I'm just trying to allay my suspicions that the raid is losing dps by me not having GOA and/or a Feral druid.
My Armory probably isnt showign my dps gear as I typically wear my ghetto pvp/farming gear most of the time. (Note: Yes I know real PvP gear is easy to get but RL interferes with gaming time that I could use for getting it.) So here's a quick run down of my current raiding set:
Feral druid isn't going to make much difference for you since your uptime is already so high. If you look at the difference in AGI you're talking about adding 25ap to the melee group (and adding to your own DPS), which is miniscule compared to Windfury. With the uptime increase you're talking maybe 30ap benefit overall.
Has anyone looked at the benefits of EW with GoA compared to Windfury for fury warriors?
Typically my guild runs with a melee specific group. The makeup is typically Enhance, Feral, Rogue, Rogue, Fury with shaman's rotated in for Bloodlusts. Unfortunately that's our only group that has a chance at getting GoA and if we have another feral it's typically in the Tank group as an OT. Thus I usually end up in a group with all casters and have little to no group synergy.
Raid buffed without GoA/LotP I'm at 959 agility with 40.32% crit with 96.22% EW uptime. With GoA/LotP it's 1056 and 47.73% crit with 98.37% EW uptime.
I do not know much about fury warriors and their buffs, so I cannot really answer that side of the question. However, from someone with similar progression as you for comparison, I know that losing LotP and GoA is very impactive on my personal DPS and overall raid contribution to DPS.
My guild has not killed Kael yet. Without both LotP and shaman totems, my calculated DPS is 1188.75, with 1042 agi, 44.33% crit, 97.95% EW uptime, and 255.25 average EW proc.
As Trohck stated, LotP does not help our EW too much at our high crit levels if we have 3/3 ranks in EW. However, it does have a noticeable impact on our personal DPS since both the hunter and the pet receives the buff. With LotP, my hunter has 1243.14 DPS (+54.39), same agi, 49.31% crit (+4.98), 98.90% EW uptime (+0.95%), and 257.72 average EW proc (+2.47 AP). Assuming 8 other physical in the raid including pets, my overall raid DPS contribution improvement with getting LotP is 60.32 DPS (54.39 + (2.47*0.3*8) ) but only 5.93 DPS is from my EW contribution to other raid members. So if it is just a matter of whether I get LotP or the melee groups gets the buff from the fury warrior and the fury warrior gets LotP, it is probably better for the raid for the fury warrior to be in that group.
Now a shaman may be a different matter, and this is not only due to GoA. GoA is the most important buff a survival hunter gets from a shaman, but we also get mana spring to help with managing our mana pool and keeping up our max rotations and both GoA and SoE to our pet to improve its performance as well. With being in the same group as our enhancement shaman with his improved totems, my hunter has 1268.69 DPS (+79.94), 1154 agi (+112), 47.11% crit (+2.78%), 98.54% EW uptime (+0.59%), and 284.21 average EW proc (+28.96 AP). Assuming 8 other physical in the raid including pets, my overall raid DPS contribution improvement with getting the totems is 149.44 DPS (79.94+ (28.96*0.3*8) ) with 69.5 DPS being from my EW contribution to other raid members. This is a very significant improvement to raid DPS, which I would think would be difficult to surmount with the fury warrior's benefit to that group, but as I said, I do not know for sure. Note though that the DPS numbers did not account for the possible DPS benefits from mana spring that could prevent or reduce having to use AoV or drop down to a mana conserving rotation so that I can keep up my personal DPS and EW benefits better.
Getting both the shaman totems and LotP, my hunter has 1325.10 DPS (+136.35), 1154 agi (+112), 52.09% crit (+7.76%), 99.24% EW uptime (+1.29%), and 286.24 average EW proc (+30.99 AP). Assuming 8 other physical in the raid including pets, my overall raid DPS contribution improvement with getting the totems is 210.73 DPS (136.35 + (30.99*0.3*8) ) with 74.38 DPS being from my EW contribution to other raid members. This is a significant increase.
Also note that with gear improvements that the DPS differences between having the buffs or not will become greater. The EW benefits will mostly stay the same, but the personal DPS gains should increase as each shot does more damage.
Can anyone quantify the benefit of having the fury warrior in these groups instead?
Sorry if i ask again, but im confused right now. Iam SV Hunter since 2-3 Month. At last time i spend much more time to increase my damage output. I use all haste procs (DST & Bloodlust, IAotH, Rapid Fire) i can get, and so i keep my dmg up.
At the Moment i use the following macro for a 2:1 shot rotation
As an example using my hunter with his current armory and typical raid buffs, as expected from the above table, the 2 crit trinkets together perform a little worse than the [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Tsunami Talisman]. The latter combination results in +4.53 personal DPS with a -0.39 AP for average EW proc (due to the loss in crit). Since there cannot be 39 (4.53/(0.39*0.3)) other physical in a 25-man raid, the latter combination provides overall better raid DPS. Now of course, this assumes that I am using [Bloodlust Brooch] everytime it is available. If I am not, then the former combination may prevail. Personally, until I can get some of the better proc trinkets, I prefer one use trinket to control when I get the AP boost. I pull a lot, and it is nice to have the AP boost to improve the benefits of MD, and I also like to use the trinket when doing a Rapid Fire when both are available.
They actually perform worse than you think. Hourglass and Tsunami share the same hidden cooldown of 45s. If one procs, it resets the cooldown of both, they are not independent. It is possible to proc them both at the same time but that is a very low percentage of the time. With that information you basically get 1.45*40 = 58 AP for Hourglass in best case scenario every time (the procs compete so sometimes you'd be getting the lower AP proc), which won't be the case. I'd highly recommend not using them at the same time, you would be better off using Tsunami Talisman and the BG crit trinket since all you are really doing at that point is stacking a little more crit.
They actually perform worse than you think. Hourglass and Tsunami share the same hidden cooldown of 45s. If one procs, it resets the cooldown of both, they are not independent. It is possible to proc them both at the same time but that is a very low percentage of the time. With that information you basically get 1.45*40 = 58 AP for Hourglass in best case scenario every time (the procs compete so sometimes you'd be getting the lower AP proc), which won't be the case. I'd highly recommend not using them at the same time, you would be better off using Tsunami Talisman and the BG crit trinket since all you are really doing at that point is stacking a little more crit.
This is not correct. They do not share cooldowns at all. I have both trinkets, and have had them proc at the same time. Which is enough proof that they do not share cooldowns.
This is not correct. They do not share cooldowns at all. I have both trinkets, and have had them proc at the same time. Which is enough proof that they do not share cooldowns.
That was the point he tried to make. If they share cooldowns, they can proc at the same time, but if one procs, the other can't for the next 45 seconds.
01/30/08, 8:25 PM
In the last few fights i'm using [Recipe: Fel Mana Potion] and luckilly i can manage mana load most of the time. OF course it's not cheap, and i usully waiting - likefor the Saviour - for the potion cooldown at the end of the time, but it's ok
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