Hi Kurkis

just for clarification some questions:


by new steadyshot macro do you mean a

?

and since i dont like manual weaving (been doing it for years ) and prefer using my g15 macro repeat keys nowadays

would a weaving macro be
would those work for you?

cheers

Sun

last night I tried using a 2:1 rotation

Wow Web Stats

I have 4pc t6 bonus as well as Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness. My spec is also 0/20/41

I used this macro

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath

I found that I really had to watch and make sure I did not do 3 steady shots in a row with this macro.
If you browse through my combat log you can see that I did clip a few autos in this way. So there is
potential to improve on my rotation.

Mana efficiency = Excellent!

I'm unsure if there is a substantial dps increase. I compared this kill to some of our previous kills and I was hitting a lot harder (even though my gear has not changed) so there must be more raid buffs than previously.

This certainly proves that SV hunters are more than just a "raid buff" though.

I'm pretty sure this was proven to be wrong. A few months ago someone posted a screen shot of both trinkets active with different durations of the buff remaining.

I'm 99% sure that you're right about that Cheeky.

Here is the original post. The picture shows a 3 second difference in durations remaining, which couldn't be accounted for even by latency.

I'm still very skeptical over this whole two steady shots, followed by one auto shot rotation. Is there any math behind why your seeing an increase in dps? Does this only work if you have 4 pieces of Tier 6?

Is the mana consumption more or less than a more traditional rotation?

So, I can't remember where I found it, but there was a post explaining why more than one point in Trap Mastery is useless. I don't have the talent, and have no intention of getting it, but I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a quick explanation, or a link to the post...

Thanks in advance.

First, obviously mana consumption is less than other typical rotations. Steady shot costs substantially less mana than any other shot you have (except auto). You are replacing an arcane shot and a multi-shot every 10ish seconds with steady shots so mana consumption goes way down.

For DPS, it increases because total shots fired goes up. This is especially true once haste comes into play. Your number of special shots will approach the theeoretical max and your auto shot will no olonger be capped by the GCD which it effectively is when you weave shouts bound to the GCD between autos.

I put up a spreadsheet several pages back that showed this data here

Look at the total specials vvs max specials and compare total shots fired. That was done as MM but you get the same relaative results as SV. On dr boom doing 2:1 with haste proccing here and there (and rapid fire) I go exactly 120 seconds on a full bar of mana with no extra regen.

I dont recall where the post is but it goes something like this. 1% is all that is required to get you the max possible resist chance against any mob in the game you can trap anyway. i.e. mobs high enough level to benefit from 2% are all untrappable anyway.

@ Mercy XXVI
Taken from Lactose's Hunter Thread

Trap mastery
Equal level: 4% chance to resist.
+1 level: 5% chance to resist.
+2 levels: 6% chance to resist.
+3 levels: [Mob] 17% chance to resist / [Player] 13% chance to resist.

Traps always have 1% to be resisted, regardless of your hit chance.
Resist checks happen both on initial application and on heartbeat ticks.

What this means in terms of talent point allocation:
Unless you're trying to trap something that's 3+ levels above you, 2 points in Trap Mastery is useless. Even against a target 2 levels above you, adding a second point does not provide any boost in trap success rate or longevity

Adding to that, there are no level 73 mobs currently in the game that you can trap.

I can confirm they are absolutly indipendant, i even have a screenshot with both buffs with different duration. I've posted it a while ago in the spreadsheet thread.

Dont think it applies but even if it did would you spend a whole talent point to pop a boss with your leet explosive trap? The adds on fights arent level 73 elites.

Gentlemen,

I stepped aside from Wow for 3 monthes and as I'm coming back, my guild farming H/BT, I feel disoriented with the new mechanics. I've read with pleasure the latest pages of this thread and am wondering how this theorycraft can be of any use for me.

I am a survival hunter, used to perform a 1:1.15 rotation, using for that the pre2.3 macro. I manualy wave in AS and MS. My pet is a ravager, as I found difficult to handle the "move-in move-out" movement of a windserpent casting Lightning breath. My gear is well balanced, with 4/5 T5, and offering me almost 8K mana.

My weapon is Legionkiller.
All of this can be reviewed on the armory (The World of Warcraft Armory), but I sum it up here for ease.

My latency is 200ms.
My current build is not meant for raiding and it will be modified in 0/20/41 in the next days.


I've got several questions in order to optimize my dps :

1. Haste
My raid will in no occasion provide me with haste effect other than an accidental Bloodlust. I am leatherworker and can use Drums of battle (and would be the only one in my raid).

1.a So is it interesting for me, considering my current gear, to try to stick to a 1:1 rotation ?
1.b Should I try to get more haste rating on my gear ?

2. Rotation 2.1

2.a Would a 2:1 rotation be useful, considering my 4/5 T5 bonus (pro) and my latency of 200ms (con) ?
2.b If so, is this macro the one to spam ?

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

3. Rotation 1:1.15

3.a What is the best 1:1.15 macro now (considering I will manualy wave in multi and AS) ?
3.b Is this one accurate ?

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

3.c In what kind of occasion a 1:1.15 rotation would be of better use than a 2:1 rotation ?

4. Weapon and speed

4.a Is my weapon speed important ?
4.b Should I try to get the Illidan or Archimonde Bow ?

5. Pet
What pet would be the best dps oriented choice for me ?

6. Trinkets
I don't have DST. I currently raid with Tsunami Talisman and Bloodlust Brooch. Would it be wise to replace the BB by the Hourglass of the Unraveler, as it has been recently stated it didn't share its cooldown with the Tsunami Talisman ?

7. Stats

7.a How to rate Armor penetration in comparison for standard stats as ap, crit, hr, haste ? is it worthwhile ?
7.b Is there a cap in crit rating that is silly to go over ?

8. Gear
What change would you make ? What piece of gear would you replace absolutely ?



I thank you in advance for your answers, as they will be really valuable to me.

Haste - No you should only be using a 1:1 while hasted, other than that use the 1:1.5 or 2:1, I believe there is any definitive data to prove that one is better than the other, I personal will not mess around with the 2:1.

Rotation - As far as rotation goes, you are going to have to test which does better for you, a 2:1 or 1:1.5. I've said many times that there is no good way to macro a 1:1.5, I use a cast sequence steady shot macro and manually weave in arcane/multi.

Weapon speed - is important, you will want a 3.0 speed weapon. The Archi Bow is ideal but the Vashj bow or S3 bow are also upgrades over Legionkiller. 3.0 speed allows you to perform 1:1.5 (or 2:1 i guess?) with less clipping.

Pet - Get a Windserpent and macro lightning breath to steady shot, arcane shot, and multi shot rather than having it auto cast.

Trinkets - Keep using BB & TT... BB is a much better trinket than the hourglass. Upgrades are - Berserker's Call from ZA and/or Madness of the Betrayer from BT.

Stats - You'll want to download cheeky's spreadsheet. You can plug in your gear/rotation/spec and see your estimated dps. Then you can plug in upgrades to see what will benefit you. You'll find it the Hunter Spreadsheets thread. Armor penetration is a very nice stat!

Gear - You are over the hit cap by a decent amount, you can afford to drop some hit rating (only need 96) (might want to replace your cloak with the one off Kael). Other than that you will definitely want to replace your bracers, haste rating on gear will result in a net loss of dps. Your weapons are nice but replace them with the ZA daggers if you can. Replace that +5 crit +7 stam gem in your boot with +5 agility +7 stam. Neck can also be replaced with the one off Kael.

Spec - 0/20/41 is superior than 0/24/37 plus you'll get the benefit of readiness which provides some amazing utility in raids.

Please feel free to add anything I missed!

Well I tried it out, and noticed a considerable increase in dps compared to using 1:1.5. Like other people, however, I did notice times when the macro would essentially get stuck, and continuously steady shot for 3-4 shots before reverting back to an autoshot.

Regarding the new 2:3 rotation (and to Sennak as this will answer some of your questions):

In an unhasted ideal situation (i.e. standing there shooting), you'll do the best dps with a 1:1.5 rotation.

1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot = 1862 DPS
1:2 = 1467 DPS
2:3 = 1487 DPS
1:1 = 1519 DPS

The DPS of a standard 1:1.5 rotation is approximately equivalent to that of a 1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation, as has been discussed previously in this thread.

----------------------------------------------------
Math behind those numbers:
Assume 50% crit rate, and take numbers out of my WWS (yes, I have 4/5 T6)
Auto Shot: 1107 Hit AVG, 2633 Crit AVG
Steady Shot: 1131 Hit AVG, 2724 Crit AVG
Arcane Shot: 1047 Hit AVG, 2389 Crit AVG

Weapon speed is 3.0 modified only by a 15% quiver, as well as .2s of latency.

1:1.5 Imp Arcane Shot rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots, 2 Steady Shots, and 1 Arcane Shot in 5 seconds.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts


2:3 rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots and 3 Steady Shots in 6.1 Seconds.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.9 Auto Shot Fires
4.1 Steady Shot
5.6 Steady Shot Fires
6.4 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts


1:1 rotation will fire 1 Auto Shot and 1 Steady Shot in 2.5 Seconds.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
-------------------------------------------------------

As this shows, in the presence of 0% haste, you are better off using a 1:1.5 rotation than either of the others. Unfortunately, the 1:1.5 rotation is tied directly to the 5 second Arcane Shot cooldown and is thus not improved by any haste increases.

Assume now the presence of the Heroism (or Bloodlust) buff, granting 30% haste. This will decrease the cast time of Steady Shot from 1.5 seconds to 1.05 seconds (going to be simplified to 1.0 seconds) and decrease the Auto Shot timer to 2.04 seconds (going to be simplified to 2.0 seconds).

1:1.5 = 1862 DPS
2:3 = 1904 DPS
1:1 = 1898 DPS

--------------------------------------------------------

1:1.5 rotation will perform exactly the same as it will sit stuck on the Arcane Shot cooldown.


2:3 rotation will fire 2 Auto Shots and 3 Steady Shots in 5 seconds.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.2 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot
2.5 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.2 Steady Shot
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts


1:1 rotation will fire 1 Auto Shot and 1 Steady Shot in 2 seconds.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot
1.2 Steady Shot Fires
2.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts

--------------------------------------------------------

What these numbers mean is that (from what I can tell) you want to use the 2:3 rotation in 2 circumstances: Heroism and Rapid Fire. In all other situations, you are better off with a 1:1.5 rotation. If my math is off, please someone correct me- I've provided everything I did here for you.

If you want to pattern off me feel free, I use a 0/28/33 Spec (not my current spec as I was testing a 0/20/41 last night, will be going back tonight) with 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot and 3/3 Expose Weakness. I use /castsequence reset = 3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Arcane Shot(Rank 9), Steady Shot(Rank 1) as a macro. My personal best Gorefiend dps is ~1850 as survival (not great but definitely solid) running ~1200 raid buffed agi with a shaman.

Some additional thoughts for Sennak:

Weapon speed Depends what is more important to you - personal DPS, higher EW proc, or raid DPS contribution.

If personal DPS is more important to you, then the 3 weapons Vasilii suggested are definitely upgrades. [Serpent Spine Longbow], [Vengeful Gladiator's Heavy Crossbow], and [Bristleblitz Striker] do about 3.5, 8.0, and 10.0 more DPS, respectively, calculated for my character as currently raid geared (working on Kael) over [Legionkiller].

However, if you are looking for higher EW proc, then the above suggestions are downgrades since they have no agi, and you lose about 6 AP on your EW proc (value depends on your EW uptime and the particular weapon - some are more than 6 AP due to the loss of crit as well). For EW proc, the best weapon is [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] from Doomwalker since you can get 32 agi on it, which is 40.5 agi with LR and BoK. This results for my char in about 3.85 more AP on EW proc over [Legionkiller].

However, if you are looking for optimal raid DPS contribution, as I do, you should stay with [Legionkiller] if the weapon differences work out similar for you as they do for me. Compared to the highest DPS weapon, [Bristleblitz Striker], the loss in 9.9 DPS is made up by the 5.91 extra AP on EW proc as long as there is at least 6 other physical DPS, including pets, in the raid. This is almost always the case in my guild's raids. In addition, the extra 3.85 AP on EW proc from [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] does not come anywhere close to making up for the loss of 38.36 DPS. It would require 34 other physical DPS to be in the raid.

Pet There is nothing wrong with staying with your ravager, as long as the one you have has both Gore and Bite. They still do great DPS for a survival hunter. It's what I currently use. Although a wind serpent could boost your pet DPS a little. Earlier on in this thread there are some discussions on this.

Trinkets What Vasilii said. As my analysis a couple pages back shows, BB and TT is much better than hourglass and TT. Plus, with a 0/20/41 build with MT, the extra AP from BB is better at your gear level than the crit from hourglass to help keep AP and crit balanced towards optimal DPS ratios (wherever the optimal is).

Stats Definitely utilize Cheeky's spreadsheet since what either Vasilii or I suggest may not hold true for your character with its gear and spec. Best to use the spreadsheet or some other tool to help better compare different pieces of gear. Note though that for pieces of gear of "equivalent" overall stats, that one item that was previously worse for you may become better with different gear combinations.

Gear Couldn't see your armory at this time, so just working off Vasilii's suggestion. Definitely, if you are over the hit cap, drop the hit cloak (assume it is [Drape of the Dark Reavers] or [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]) eventually for Kael's cloak since it is the best Survival hunter cloak in the game. But until you can get it, another good option that you can easily acquire with Badges of Justice is [Blood Knight War Cloak].

The neck from Kael is nice, but I have another neck option for you depending on whether personal DPS or overall raid DPS is more important. You can have a JC make you [Necklace of the Deep] (yes its blue and I assume you are not currently wearing this). With 2 +10 agi spindels in it, relative to [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem], it calculates to only 5.5 less DPS but 4.5 more AP on EW proc. That means with about 4 other physical DPS in the raid, the contribution from the two necks is the same. More than 4 other physical DPS results in [Necklace of the Deep] winning out.

Spec I am partial to 0/20/41 spec as well. I have analyzed many others (about 11), and this spec provided me the overall best raid DPS contribution for my character with the buffs he receives and his gear from a couple months ago when I did the analysis (I will revisit the analysis after getting some H/BT gear). Readiness has been helpful in many situations.

However, other specs are very viable too (with advocates for each) and may be better for your character with your gear and/or playing style. Suggest checking some out in Cheeky's spreadsheet yourself.

I was using a steady shot macro, manually throwing in arcane, and multis before. It's nice to know this works, but since I picked up a new gun last night I shall be sticking with a 1:1 rotation.

Nice analysis, but I believe that it is not 100% complete.

It is true that a 1:1.5 rotation that you listed is unaffected by the haste; however, other forms of a 1:1.5 rotation that uses a arcane and a multishot instead of two arcanes is affected some by haste since there is roughly 10.5 secs with a 3.0 weapon speed weapon between two arcanes and between two multishots. This is much longer than the 6 second cooldown on unimproved arcane shot and slightly longer than the 10 second cooldown on multishot. Hence, there is a little room for haste to be beneficial, with the multishot cooldown being the limiting factor. If you happen to be raiding with 4 arena pieces (I did at one time when all the Vengeful's were better than what I had), then the multishot cooldown is only 9 seconds, allowing even more room for haste.

Plus, with multishot doing more damage than arcane shot (with also having better damage per mana), in battles where you can use multishot, the 1:1.5 rotation with it should prodcude better DPS unhasted than the IAS 1:1.5 rotation and provide even a little more DPS when hasted.

Please correct me if I am wrong and am misunderstanding any of the theories that resulted in my conclusions.

That could definitely be the case, I wasn't focusing so much on the comparative dps of different 1:1.5 rotations so much as in their relation to the 2:3 and 1:1 rotations. If you want to do the math on a 1:1.5 rotation regarding multishot feel free, I haven't personally used it and thus don't know the exact shots involved in the rotation. If I remember correctly however, when we did the math on this last time the difference between the two was pretty negligable- it was a matter of personal preference rather than an obvious choice.

Imp Arcane shot has 0 effect on a 1:1.5 rotation assuming you are using multi. If you are not using multi then you are losing DPS.