I think you should add a "/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()" at the end.

I'm guessing Hide() is a toggle to hide it permanently, and Show() brings it back on permanently. Clear() would just clear any current errors from the frame (after they have already appeared).

So if you Hide() the error frame, perform the macro (and get the errors, but they're hidden), then Clear() those errors, then Show() the frame again when the macro is done.

That's just my assumption, I'd give it a shot in-game, but no WoW at work. I'm sure some more UI-competent people could correct us.


{edit} so the macro would be:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
*macro goes here*
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Quick question, I have seen some thoughts on group setup, but had some questions on survival hunters as we are trying to integrate one into our raid group before Sunwell hits.

Our typical melee group runs with an enhancement shaman (myself), 2 rogues, 1 MS warrior and 1 fury warrior. We also have 2 BM hunters outside the melee group and a feral druid that tanks when needed. We usually run with one or two shadow priests (which I have heard are sometimes needed for survival?).

What would the optimal group setup be for a survival hunter?

Also, how much dps should a survival hunter be doing in their best gear set? Although the main reason I want a survival hunter is for expose weakness and imp hunters mark, I want them to do good damage compared to the rest of the group.

I have seen a lot of conflicting information about just how much dps they are capable of and also about the group set up.

If I can get some informative answers on this or a link to this information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

A decent survival hunter will do more dps than you and your arms warrior, but around 200 dps less than 'the best' BM
hunter. Get one of your BM guys to try it out.

The best gear is almost identical for all hunter specs as nothing is specifically itemised for Survival anyway.

What about ideal group setup? Our rogues are both hovering in the 2k dps range, me between 1500-1800 usually, fury warrior at 1500ish and MS warrior around 1300ish. Our BM hunters range quite a bit because of pet viability on fights, but can easily pass our warriors and compete with our rogues if their pets stay up.

I guess what I am saying is, if I am going to put a hunter in the melee group, it would be one of the BM hunters, so where should I ideally set the survival hunter? I have had one of our BM hunters go survival, but he prefers BM and I would rather have him stay BM and just fill another ranged spot with a survival hunter.

Thanks!

Wait what?

Yup, apparently, on the PTR, Avenger's shield, Chain lightning, Multi Shot and a few more similar abilities can be safely used around sheeped/sapped/trapped targets without breaking them.

For multi shot, that means it would either jump to 3 uncontroled targets, if there are enough to go around, or it will only fire at one or two targets if there aren't enough eligible targets.

Ironically enough the largest problem I've faced since clearing Hyjal and going 4/5 BT thusfar, is pet survivability. The Tier 6 encounters for the most part are not pet friendly whatsoever. It's true on fights like Azgalor personal DPS is very high, but one RoF kills my poor wind serpent- or at least makes me use 2 GCDs Mend Petting him back to health before sending him back in. The only fight in MH that isn't a problem is Kaz, all the others I know I'm losing a lot of DPS micro-managing my pet's health. I agree Shade is one of the few fights that would be a good benchmark of DPS, but even then you're switching targets a lot

Many factors like amount of target switches, time spent setting up and executing MDs, group composition ect. all play into it. Where other ranged classes have a DPS window that differs by maybe 250, mine atm is anywhere from 950-1450. A lot of what a SV Hunter brings to the raid is not going to show up on his Recount data on any particular fight.

On Azgalor the trick is to put your pet on stay and agressive near the Doomguard tank spot (Tauren Warriors for us).

I'd agree that the target switching on Shade makes a slightly poor comparison but it's mostly, if not over-compensated by your multishot hitting 3 targets usually (especially once some sorcerors arrive).

I'll also agree, a Survival Hunter's benefit to the raid is in their utility (especially if readiness specced) but their personal damage should not be ignored. They are, after all, a dps class and although their spec is "sacrificial" they can't be considered a "gimped" spec by any means.

Well, on Rage, if you can pull your pet out a few seconds before D&D for safety, it will survive.
On Anatheron, you can leave it on the boss for the whole duration, and just spam mend pets when possible.
On Kaz, like you said, no problems there...
On Azgalor, you can set him to aggresive and stay near Thrall, to dps doomguards rather than get in the way of fires.

Edit: 2/5 tier 5 goes a very long way to ensure a happy, healthy and living pet.

I'm still torn on what spec going for sunwell.

At the moment i have a mixed raid/pvp build since we are just farming content, but surely once sunwell goes live i will respec for better raid performance.

The 3 specs i'm considering are:

1)7-21-33

2)0-28-33

3)0-20-41


As it is now, third build wins in short fight while second one have better avarage performance. With sunwell gear however, getting haste items will not gimp too much your dps stats, and it's actually easy to get around 10% haste and keeping 4 t6 bonus. Was thinking to switch to the Barrel-Blade Longrifle for 1% racial crit and higher agi, and then with approx 10% haste i'll bring down my autoshot to 2.05, that will allow me to switch to 3:2 rotation and getting full benefit from IAotH procs.


Any comments?

I had an Imp. Arcane spec before and recently switched to 7-21-33. So far I am very impressed with the results. Using a normal BM rotation, which converts to 2:1 unhasted, I usually get better DPS for less mana consumption. This spec really shines if you add a 'haste-cycle' to it to get to a 3:2 or even better 1:1 rotation. I dont have passive haste at all, but use the following to achieve this goal for as long as I can:

- IAotH (15%, 12 sec, proc)
- DST (20%, 10 sec, proc)
- Rapid Fire (40%, 15 sec, on use)
- Troll Berserking (10-30%, 10 sec, on use)
- Haste Potion (25%, 15 sec on use)
- Bloodlust (30%, 40 sec, on use)
- Drums (5%, 30sec, on use)

Although Haste Potion may not be an option for everyone (lucky me raids with a Ret Pally ) and the same goes for Berserking, it works out really nice if you can get this to work, especially in shorter encounters. But even in the longer ones the sustainability is great.

Well I can give you all the info I have learned thus far in raiding.

1. Optimal Group Setup - Keep in mind that the Surv hunter does not need to be in the melee group, only on the same target that all of the physical damage dealers are on. This is a HUGE misconception that most raid leaders make, and it irks the hell out of me. If you want to Maximize the Surv Hunters benefits to you, I think they should be considered as a melee. Optimal setup I think is 1 or 2 BM hunters(stacking 3% dmg is hot) a feral druid and a Shadow Priest. Now you can swap out one of the hunters or the druid for a shaman that can drop GoA/mana tide but that would be dependent on how many shamans you run with. It also depends on the hunter too, if they are prepared for a night of raiding then chaining Fel Mana Pots should keep them from running oom, so it can trivialize having a sp.

2. Best Dps - As most of the other people have replied its really based on what fight you are on, I also think that the group make-up has a significant role in their personal dps too. 1000-1200 should be a good number for a stacked BT geared survival hunter. Keep in mind though that their dps will not top the meters but once you add in the huge buff of EW and imp mark (i give about 360AP to the raid) it will vastly out do the loss in dps overall.

3. Here is a link to my armory and spec if you need any more information or ideas The World of Warcraft Armory

I think I am going to go with BM Hunter/dagger rogue/feral druid/resto shaman/survival hunter once I pick one up. Then when that dagger rogue gets a MH warglaive, I'll swap him back in the melee group and stack the other BM hunter in the group above.

And ya, the reason I want the survival hunter is because of those buffs. 360 ap to our melee is huge by itself!

Thanks for the info, just need to find me a survival hunter now, lol!

I recently started raiding as Survival since my guild needed one and I am still trying to figure out some things. For my first week of raids I was really really struggling to keep up a decent rotation. My damage was really low and I decided to work over my spec and rotation during the weekend. I also took the time to read this whole thread to find useful informations.

Right now the best rotation I was able to maintain during my tests was the standard 1:1.5 rotation (multi/arcane with multi priority). I have read about the new /cast !Auto shot; /cast Steady Shot and how it's supposed to deliver great DPS, but for me it is always way less than the 1:1.5 rotation. I do not have 4 pieces of T6 yet so my damage would rise if I had it, but according to my numbers, a 10% bonus would not help 2:1 come on top of a 1:1.5 rotation.

To the survival hunters out there that use the 2:1 macro, what do you have that make it better than 1:1.5? Is there something I'm missing?

-------------

I am really impressed by Kurkis' setup and his results found on page 38-39. I am really interested to learn more about it. Is Kurkis still around? Anyone else tried to follow his footsteps to reproduce his numbers?

What are folks thinking in regard to the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]? Is this a viable Survival Weapon?

I've been using the rotations that QuiggyB posted in post #831. I don't have DST and am running a 0/20/41 spec. I'm seriously considering saving badges for 2.4 and getting the crossbow.

I believe Kurkis situation was unique and that he accomplished tremendous dps based on that specific situation and strategy.

Since his guild has been farming BT/Hyjal for quite some time, his raid dps as whole is very high and fights are very short. A fight that might take my guild 8 minutes may takes his only 4. Because of this he used 4Piece T6 bonus + steady shot trinket + multiple stacked haste effects + stacked group... he spent the majority of a fight in a 1:1 hasted state, after the haste he used 3:2 but could have probably achieved the same result if he was using 1:1.5. The majority of his big numbers came from the prolonged hasted state combined with a short encounter time.

I don't believe that 3:2 is viable for most survival hunters but if someone has some WWS to look at I think it would be really valuable.

I have not yet run the numbers on the 2.8 badges crossbow but I can't see using a 2.8 weapon very successfully with survival. Perhaps if you did not have access to S3 Bow or Archi Bow. For hunters progressing into sunwell, an amazing survival bow will be just around the corner [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas] Not to mention the 2.8 bow looks terrible!

With all the haste gear sitting around this does bring up some interesting questions:
- Does haste have any place in 1:1.5 with 3.0 speed weapon? My thoughts are absolutely not, has anyone found differently?
- Some of the best items in the game will be leather, how much leather can we wear and still maintain decent time to OOM. (assuming no shadow priest) (this question has tons of factors involved but might be interesting to talk about)

A while back I did the numbers on a pure haste setup (I.E. going 1:1 with as much haste as you could stack in sunwell gear) and the dps result was terrible. Given that a 1:1.5 rotation is governed by your arcane shot and multi shot cooldowns, haste really isn't going to have an effect. The only times haste would have an effect would be the hasted portions of the fight where you move to a 1:1 style rotation, and given that this is usually such a small portion of the fight I wouldn't recommend it.

Regarding mana, I run without Thrill of the Hunt, without Efficiency, and have almost no mana issues at all. The judicious use of a mana oil on your weapon, a major mageblood elixer to go with my greater agility elixer, a ret paladin keeping judgement of wisdom up, and fel mana potions when needed are more than enough to keep me happy. As well, us hunters tend to get thrown in with a resto shaman (since our enhancement shaman gets the melee group), and I just request that they notify me when they're going to drop mana tide totem. It's an incredible mana boost for those couple of fights where mana is an issue (I'm thinking Illidari Council specifically, since I don't stand with the healers our shaman gets to yell at me.) Mana efficiency is all about what you're willing to spend.

Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation are generally better Gauntlets of Sniping for Survival. I was just stating that the Sniping ones are better than T5. Note though that for me currently, the Sniping gloves are better since I lose hit (and DPS) with the other gloves and all the hit items that I have to replace items in other slots are inferior and result in loss of DPS.

Concerning Daggers of Bad Mojo versus Trollbane, whichever is better depends a lot on your other gear, spec, and which is more important, personal or overall raid DPS. For my current spec and gear, 2 Daggers of Bad Mojo with +20 agi have 1346.84 DPS and 291.83 EW while Trollbane with +35 agi (make sure to clear weapon and enchant in off hand slot) has 1340.52 DPS and 294.42 EW. The extra EW on Trollbane equates to 6.22 raid DPS (assuming 0.3 conversion for AP to DPS and 8 other physical DPS on the target) making the items roughly equal for overall raid DPS. Here I would choose the daggers since they give better personal DPS and on average better raid DPS when including the times when the other physical DPS may not be on the same target as you.

There are however some things the spreadsheets and stat weights can't fully quantify; for instance, the T5 gloves. It depends a lot on the set bonus, and if you're breaking it or not. I'm talking here about the 2 piece bonus; the constant stream of healing done to your pet can't in any way be translated into numbers. Sure; if you're doing 1000 flat dps, it'll be 150 healing per second your pet recieves. But it's constant, and it scales with your damage and the target's debuffs. It also saves you quite a few global cooldowns casting mend pet (you're still going to use it, but a lot less), a lot of mana you'd spend on those mend pets, and a lot of time where otherwise you'd need to pull back or revive your pet. How do you fit all that into a single x > y equation?

Just killed Gorefiend with the /cast macro, 2112 dps as imp arcane shot... holy hell! I'll have WWS later tonight, so I'll be editing this post.

Edit: According to WWS, it was 2143 DPS in a fight that lasted 3:06.
Wow Web Stats

First, I agree with Ugla. She had the spec more correct to begin with with the 0/19/42 spec. Survival hunters are crit hunters with DPS scaling with crit and with many of our skills, such as TotH, EW, and trinkets proccing off crit. MT is very important for survival hunters, and Readiness is an awesome asset that can increase DPS more with extra Rapid Shots or provide greater utility with extra MDs and FDs.

However, I would suggest a few minor changes. The biggest is getting 5/5 Mortal Shots instead of 4/5 as your suggested change has. For all hunters, 5/5 Mortal Shots is very important for our DPS, but it is even more important for survival hunters with our greater crit rate. For me, 1 rank in Mortal Shots is about 22 DPS. I like Wyvern Sting for soloing and PvP, but for raiding it should be dropped for 5/5 Mortal Shots.

I also strongly suggest 3/3 EW and 2/3 TotH instead of vice versa. As I have stated in previous posts, that extra rank in EW makes a significant difference to both personal and raid DPS, and that difference is even more pronounced in most fights where the hunter has to do more than just stand still and fire an ideal rotation. The lost rank in TotH is made up by already having 5/5 Efficiency. She shouldn;t be having mana problems with that spec and using mana pots. If she does, then use a mana oil on her weapon or place her in a group with a shaman with mana spring.

The other differences at the lower end of the survival tree are preferential. Personally, I wouldn't spend a point in IFD since Readiness allows for extra FD and she shouldn;t be waiting for the last moment to FD. I prefer the point in Clever Traps so that my traps, when used, are more effective.

For the macro, I hope that she is doing more than just auto-steady. With her weapon speed, she should be doing either a 1:1.3 rotation with arcane shot after every 3rd steady when firing around CC and a 1:1.5 rotation with alternating arcane shot and multishot after every other steady. I would not suggest using a macro for the 1:1.3 or 1:1.5 rotations. I have tried many and have not found one that consistently and accurately performs the rotation and also modifies properly under haste affects to take advantage of that haste. Suggest using the auto-steady macro (don't know how good that particular one is) with hand-weaving in the arcanes and multishots at the appropriate locations. I try to cast the specials during the last third (~0.5) of the steady shot cast. This provides much more consistency, control, and ability to self-modify the rotation under high haste effects.

As far as gear goes, she doesn't have too bad for just starting raiding (her crit rate and AP is nice); however, there appears to be several gear upgrade avenues that have not been taken advantage of and which can provide huge upgrades. These include:
- Buying gear with Badges of Justice
- Getting arena gear, especially season 3
- Getting some regular PvP gear

The best gear of of these types are huge upgrades until she can get better gear in 25-mans. In fact, some of the gear available by these options do not have 25-man upgrades until very deep into raiding.

Good luck!

By nature of the fights, I wasn't meaning that you didn't necessarily understand them but that they cause a big difference between what the spreadsheet states is the ideal and reality.

For modeling of the target, the latest version of the spreadsheet on the Settings and Results tab allows you to pick the boss under the Target menu in A43. Doing so loads all the correct modeling for that target.

Concerning pulling aggro, it is at 100% when in melee and 130% at range. I have set OMEN warnings to go off at 90% when in melee and 120% at range as a reminder to watch aggro. In most cases, you shouldn't be dialing it back here. You should be FDing instead to dump all threat. You only need to dial back some when FD is on CD. Also use MD whenever available to give yourself some "free" threat shots while also lifting the MTs threat so that everyone in the raid has more DPS room to operate. You shouldn't be saving FD for after pulling aggro, you should be using it to manage your threat if you are not already doing so.

Yes, despite being a blue, wear the Necklace of the Deep.

As far as you next gear question, you need to make that tradeoff analysis yourself with seeing the differences in personal and raid DPS between two items with knowing your guilds specific general raid makeup and the buffs you receive.

Even with no buffs, a T6 area survival hunter should still be getting around 1K DPS ideally in fights when using pet. More less ideal fights and fights that are not pet friendly the unbuffed DPS could be as low as 800. However, unless you were just battle rezzed, you should never be doing boss fights unbuffed and without the appropriate elixers/flask so that you DPS and EW proc can be "maxed" out for that given situation.

If you are just doing a auto-special rotation whether that special is steady shot, arcane shot, or multishot, that would definitely account for a much lower DPS. No matter what special you use in between autos, if it is just one, it is a 1:1 rotation, and leaves a lot of dead time with a survival hunter's shot speed that you are not taking advantage, with your DPS suffering.

With CC concerns, suggest using a 1:1.3 rotation, which places an arcane shot after every 3rd steady. I hand weave it with trying to cast the arcane shot during the last third (~0.5s) of the steady shot cast.

When crowd control is not a concern, suggest using a 1:1.5 rotation that alternates arcane shot and multishot after every 2nd steady shot with casting at the same time as for the 1:1.3 rotation.

To illustrate the differences with my char with his current gear and ideal raid buffs:

1:1 steady => 1125 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1 arcane (in place of every 3rd steady) => 1163 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1 multi (in place of every 4th steady) => 1144 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1 arcane, multi (multi, arcane, steady, steady alternating between autos) => 1177 DPS and 291.5 EW proc
1:1.3: 1281 DPS and 293.8 EW proc
1:1.5: 1337 DPS and 294.4 EW proc

As can be seen, your DPS varies a little (~50 DPS) with the different 1:1 rotations depending on which specials are used but that your EW proc stays the same since you are basically doing the same number of shots in the same interval. With increasing to the 1:1.3 and 1:1.5 rotations, you see drastic changes of 160 and 212 DPS, respectively, with increases in EW proc since your are casting more shots per that same interval.

Concerning DST, if you are just doing a 1:1 rotation, then DST has no negative effects. It has positive effects of increasing your attack speed and tightening up the slack in your rotation. However, if you have already tightened up the slack in your rotation by using a 1:1.5 rotation, speeding up your shots can cause clipping if there is not sufficient slack remaining. If you have sufficient slack in your rotation, then clipping will not occur.

RK will cause you to get off more shots more quickly and generate more threat, but you should not be pulling aggro if the tank is being MDed too, especially if you use your own and get 3 "free" shots and if you utilize FD properly to manage your threat. It is possible though that you could be forced to FD early in the fight and then catch up again on threat before FD is available again. If that happens, then dial back a little until FD allows you to dump aggro again. Preventling pulling aggro also involves understanding how well particular tanks generate threat under given circumstances. For ones with lower threat generation, you may need to use RK a little later in the fight than ideal.