Don't be afraid to add the appropriate leather pieces as well. Some of them are quite good early on, such as the gloves from attumen or boots from moroes.
Good plan, i've updated the list. But still missing exact data on the base stats.
Edit: Found it Hunter Mechanics -- v2.0/TBC
The "Band of eternity" is actually 27 Agility, it just shows weird because there are multiple items with the same name.
If the base value at lvl 70 is 150, then 1400 agility fully buffed would be possible it seems. (350 ap from buff)
If you notice anything else missing please let me know and i'll add it.
Don't be afraid to add the appropriate leather pieces as well. Some of them are quite good early on, such as the gloves from attumen or boots from moroes.
I wear the full craftable leatherworking primalstrike set. At my servers level (Kara is the furthest 99.9% of people have been) I find it unbeatable in terms of the agil/AP(damage) it privides. Previously I had the Ebon Netherscale, but this set puts it to shame. I also wear Cobrascale Hood(also leather) and Talbuk Hide Spaulders(leather too). Of course, I bleed mana out my ass, but I respecced herbalist which gives me Fel Mana Pots on tap, and allows me to take higher level DPS gears(rogue and drood gears) that have more PEWPEW and no int.
I fully expect this approach to gearing to hold true as I unlock more powerful bosses.
Added Alchemist's Stone, belt of the black and Legionkiller.
Also added socket bonus for some items with only red sockets.
Greens, oh boy.
I doubt anyone would actually end up using those, but if you have exact stats on which ones would provide certain ammounts of Agility, i can add them into the list.
For some items you can use dual color gems that give agi + hit.
Since the socket bonus from some items is +3/4 crit or agility combined with the +12 from the metagem you'd still end up on top.
And the +3% damage from crits will count for quite a heavy bonus also.
Changed item names with tags now.
Rings and cape +32 agi, any lvl70 green twohander 56 agi.
I added them just for discussion about theoretical limit, as some of these blues will no one use too(like [Terokk's Quill]).
Socketing not red gems you lose 20 AGI from 4 gems to fit to metagem requirements. Good thing, that 12 from metagem and 4+4 from socket bonuses from [Ranger-General's Chestguard] and [Void Reaver Greaves] equals this.
So overall fitting socket requirements may be good thing from gained other stats.
I'm trying to make a quick list of agility items (didn't see anyone make one yet), to see how high i can get my agility with gear alone.
An obvious caveat is that stacking agility completely over other stats (particularly crit rating, but also hit rating and attack power) is not worthwhile. I like your list as a good reference for high-AGI items, but in several cases, items with higher AGI are actually worse overall, even considering buffs.
As an extreme example, the +8 AGI libram on helm is never useful compared to the Cenarion Glyph of Ferocity. It would provide 10.12 buffed AGI, or 2.53 AP per raider generously assuming 100% uptime. At an equally generous 15 people in the raid to benefit from it, the overall raid benefit would be 37.95 + 10.12 = 48.07 AP which is worse than 34 AP 16 hit rating you could provide by yourself.
An obvious caveat is that stacking agility completely over other stats (particularly crit rating, but also hit rating and attack power) is not worthwhile. I like your list as a good reference for high-AGI items, but in several cases, items with higher AGI are actually worse overall, even considering buffs.
As an extreme example, the +8 AGI libram on helm is never useful compared to the Cenarion Glyph of Ferocity. It would provide 10.12 buffed AGI, or 2.53 AP per raider generously assuming 100% uptime. At an equally generous 15 people in the raid to benefit from it, the overall raid benefit would be 37.95 + 10.12 = 48.07 AP which is worse than 34 AP 16 hit rating you could provide by yourself.
Yes, such caveats will exist aplenty, the list is intended as a reference.
Take [Ring of Lethality] vs [Pathfinder's Band], for example.
There's an obvious increase in stats by downranking your agility in some cases. (not all epics will be immediately available to everyone)
By adding lower rank items along the list, people will be able to pick out items as they progress from blues to tier 4 - tier 6.
In the end it's up for personal preferences, i can't decide for others what to use.
I could add AEP values to make the quality of items clearer.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/13/07 at 3:01 AM.
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I don't think it could refresh the proc due to the value difference.
It'd overwrite the highest value of the buff currently active, and when tenacity runs out it wil be unable to refresh it until the expose weakness run out.
Over time it works out to about 25 agility. Quite a nice find actually.
2 Minute cooldown.
120/20 = 6
150/6 = 25 Agility
Added to the list, along with the greens.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/13/07 at 2:48 AM.
-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.
Only one fix
(819 + 150 + 183) * 1.15 * 1.10 = ~1457 Agility
Kings and LR stack multiplicativily.
Thanks, fixed.
Also :
* Added a leather chest from 2.2 (violet eye faction)
* Added some 1h weapons due to the new +20 agi enchant for 1 handers coming in 2.2
* Added itemlinks to food buffs and agility potion.
* Added some ranged weapons.
* Moved enchants to seperate subsection
* Listed modifiers
Now having this list, i wonder what the highest total agility is that any survival hunter's had in-game.
(Obviously night elves will be the highest ones)
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/13/07 at 9:57 AM.
-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.
Now having this list, i wonder what the highest total agility is that any survival hunter's had in-game.
(Obviously night elves will be the highest ones)
I'm about to hit 1100 agi with just kings, agi elixir, and agi food. I picked up the Void Reaver Greaves last night and need to get 2 more Living Rubies and another cobra patch before I use them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are hunters out there that have broken 1200agi (getting the boots from astromancer/vashj and getting the doomwalker gun would almost be enough to get me there now). And, yummy yummy gronnstalker will make it even easier for us to reach even higher levels of agi.
PS: On a side note, with regard to the comment earlier about stacking agi not being worth it, that is true if you are talking about using say a green "of agility" item over an epic item, but if you are meaning stacking agi gems then you are dead wrong. Even for BM/MM, if you can assume the presence of Kings the 8agi gems will almost 100% of the time beat out anyother gem choice for a kara+ geared hunter, and for SV hunters they are far and wide the better choice.
I'm about to hit 1100 agi with just kings, agi elixir, and agi food. I picked up the Void Reaver Greaves last night and need to get 2 more Living Rubies and another cobra patch before I use them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are hunters out there that have broken 1200agi (getting the boots from astromancer/vashj and getting the doomwalker gun would almost be enough to get me there now). And, yummy yummy gronnstalker will make it even easier for us to reach even higher levels of agi.
Having similar gear(same weapon speed, 1k+ agi), i wonder what's your shot rotation with 5/20/36?
And would you mind posting any WWS?
Doing max special rotation:
Last night Tidewalker data says that I:
Do 1 shot per: 1.43 seconds
[top] 2.86 seconds for 2 shots seems just terrible
Well with Frost Trap duty and 2 graves... maybe its ok.
But Lady Vashj (with MD, 2x fd, 1 static) phase1.
1 shot per: 1.265
2.53 seconds witch actually is gain of "whooping" 0.1 second. (over 1:1 rotation with no hastes) But its gain regardless of disturbances in rotation.
Guess I'll have to test on Dr.Boom since I always get something (fd/md/traps) in rotation in raids.
But still question for SV / MM hunters:
1. Stack haste (BT itemization, trinkets, iaoth...) and go to 1:1 rotation
or
2. Get slower bow(3.0), polish max special rotation
Anyone crunched numbers and compared those or thought about those two options. I'm trying to figure out if its worth to go in polishing... All those bars with all the CDs can make person tired rather fast.
Having similar gear(same weapon speed, 1k+ agi), i wonder what's your shot rotation with 5/20/36?
And would you mind posting any WWS?
Shot rotation is actually one area that I've been thinking on lately myself. I'm not convinced I am doing an optimal one at all (particularly since I generally relegate myself to keeping scorpid up on most boss fights). About the only fight I ever get to just go full max-special rotations is on Astromancer (WWS, though that's colored a bit by the aoe phases (woot for stronger explosive traps :P ).
As for what shot rotation I try to keep up, I use a max special except when quick shots proc, then I tend to do a steady only (though if I am not distracted I'll try and do a replacement-rotation with mutli when quick shots is up).
Shot rotation is actually one area that I've been thinking on lately myself. I'm not convinced I am doing an optimal one at all (particularly since I generally relegate myself to keeping scorpid up on most boss fights). About the only fight I ever get to just go full max-special rotations is on Astromancer (WWS, though that's colored a bit by the aoe phases (woot for stronger explosive traps :P ).
As for what shot rotation I try to keep up, I use a max special except when quick shots proc, then I tend to do a steady only (though if I am not distracted I'll try and do a replacement-rotation with mutli when quick shots is up).
Now this might not be the right place to ask this, but one thing I've been thinking about is what is actually the best max special rotation. From what I can come up with, there are two options:
I'm fairly certain the 2nd one would be a net loss because you'd waste time when arcane is off cooldown waiting to launch another before using multi again, however, 3 just might be best for SV. I get the feeling of this because you get more shots in the over a given period of time (at the cost eventually of auto shots). Anyone more familiar with shot timings able to help me with the actual numeric values for these cycles?
Now this might not be the right place to ask this, but one thing I've been thinking about is what is actually the best max special rotation. From what I can come up with, there are two options:
I'm fairly certain the 2nd one would be a net loss because you'd waste time when arcane is off cooldown waiting to launch another before using multi again, however, 3 just might be best for SV. I get the feeling of this because you get more shots in the over a given period of time (at the cost eventually of auto shots). Anyone more familiar with shot timings able to help me with the actual numeric values for these cycles?
From my log, after first add phase on Astromancer.
22:23'15.390 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 722
22:23'17.109 Zek's Steady Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 669
390 Zek's Arcane Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 876 Arcane damage
22:23'18.078 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 652
22:23'20.296 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1737
22:23'21.203 Zek's Multi-Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 914
593 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 691
22:23'23.562 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1810
828 Zek's Arcane Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 924 Arcane damage
22:23'24.828 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 691
22:23'26.812 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1615
22:23'27.406 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 622
22:23'29.140 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1709
--- End of rotation
984 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 608
22:23'31.515 Zek's Steady Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 705
890 Zek's Arcane Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 2134 Arcane damage
22:23'32.484 Zek's Auto Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1564
22:23'34.078 Zek's Multi-Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 2087
22:23'35.109 Zek's Auto Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 685
22:23'36.406 Zek's Steady Shot hits High Astromancer Solarian for 679
22:23'37.640 Zek's Auto Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1541
22:23'39.968 Zek's Steady Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1700
22:23'40.234 Zek's Arcane Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 2237 Arcane damage
22:23'41.234 Zek's Auto Shot crits High Astromancer Solarian for 1691
24 shots in 26 (25.8) seconds. 45% crit (3% more than paperdoll)
29.263damage (~1134 dps)
If only I was able to keep this ratio up...
It seems I skipped 1 steady shot. I had 1 sec GDC after auto shot (due arcane) witch doesn't go well with steady+multi.
I don't have set rotation. I use Arcane and Multi when they are up and its possible to add after steady, or just replace steady if GDC is in the way. Seems to work, but i can't shake the feeling it can be improved. (with proper rotation)
I just imagined doing it without Quartz or any other cast bars. :s
Blizzard should really look into "hunter mechanics for newbies" I'm shooting Dr.Boom with each new recruit we get and with all that hunter alts that wish to "do dps".
I don't have set rotation. I use Arcane and Multi when they are up and its possible to add after steady, or just replace steady if GDC is in the way. Seems to work, but i can't shake the feeling it can be improved. (with proper rotation)
Yah, that's pretty much what I do as well, and that's how I feel too. I'm able to theory craft shot damage like a champ, but when I sit down to try and map out a cycle I start to go to pieces
Originally Posted by Sapa
I just imagined doing it without Quartz or any other cast bars. :s
Blizzard should really look into "hunter mechanics for newbies" I'm shooting Dr.Boom with each new recruit we get and with all that hunter alts that wish to "do dps".
Agreed, they need to just change auto to not have a cast time (they could hard-code it to not work while moving, same way you can't /dance while moving).
I've seen a lot of numbers out there, and I've been working with an "average" of 3.5 whenever I make quick assumptions on MT. I put together a spreadsheet earlier, and used the following equation:
FWS = Final Weapon Speed (after quiver, etc.)
MTP = Master Tactician Percentage (2% per point; 0.02 - 0.10)
SPC = Shots per Cycle (This gets rough, but it's your average shots per cycle based on rotation. I figured mine - steady + instant rotation - as being right at 2.7 damaging shots per cycle. This has to include 1x Auto and any damaging shots before the next auto, averaged out over time. Obviously there will be cycles with only steady. KC does not figure in since it can't proc MT.)
0.06 = Proc %
8 = Seconds of Uptime
( ( ( 0.06 * 8 ) / FWS ) * MTP ) * SPC
For the record, I simplified this after using a variety of "total shots tested" and it always ended up with the same results, so the simplified version should be solid.
So here's the question: Is there anything I'm missing here?
I have a feeling I am, but I've tested this for like 2 hours today, and played around with plugging in actual numbers (I used like 8 pcs of paper, woot analog) and then put together the spread sheet (which I'll put up when it's finalized).
Thing is, at a 2.34 speed (my current) I'm ending up with about 5.5% crit over time from MT using this formula, and while that actually seems correct with what I was seeing while I had MT, it's well above what most assumptions are. Even at a speed of 2.7 (3.1 with quiver) it's still at 4.7% over time.
I've seen a lot of numbers out there, and I've been working with an "average" of 3.5 whenever I make quick assumptions on MT. I put together a spreadsheet earlier, and used the following equation:
FWS = Final Weapon Speed (after quiver, etc.)
MTP = Master Tactician Percentage (2% per point; 0.02 - 0.10)
SPC = Shots per Cycle (This gets rough, but it's your average shots per cycle based on rotation. I figured mine - steady + instant rotation - as being right at 2.7 damaging shots per cycle. This has to include 1x Auto and any damaging shots before the next auto, averaged out over time. Obviously there will be cycles with only steady. KC does not figure in since it can't proc MT.)
0.06 = Proc %
8 = Seconds of Uptime
( ( ( 0.06 * 8 ) / FWS ) * MTP ) * SPC
For the record, I simplified this after using a variety of "total shots tested" and it always ended up with the same results, so the simplified version should be solid.
So here's the question: Is there anything I'm missing here?
I have a feeling I am, but I've tested this for like 2 hours today, and played around with plugging in actual numbers (I used like 8 pcs of paper, woot analog) and then put together the spread sheet (which I'll put up when it's finalized).
Thing is, at a 2.34 speed (my current) I'm ending up with about 5.5% crit over time from MT using this formula, and while that actually seems correct with what I was seeing while I had MT, it's well above what most assumptions are. Even at a speed of 2.7 (3.1 with quiver) it's still at 4.7% over time.
The thing to confirm would be your shots per second. To find it did you take a fully repeatable cycle and average it out? For instance, one typical fully repeatable cycle is:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat
Once you find a fully repeatable cycle (aka, can always be done, over and over again), take the number of shots and divide it by the duration. With that cycle and my current weapon I would get about .992 shots per second (2.52 speed * 4 autoshot-long cycle gives me 10.08 second cycle with 10 shots per cycle).
This actually kinda relates to our shot-cycle discussion, it would seem with MT that a cycle like:
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady
might get you more shots, let's see...(2.52*5 =12.6, but with the slight auto-delay needed to pull this off it's really 13.04, with 13 shots gets you .996 shots per second). So it would seem, that if you can keep it up perfectly this second rotation gets you more shots per second (and thus more damage, more MTs, more EW, etc). At least, it's true w/ my current gun and haste effects.
Did Cheeky or anyone ever finalize a MT equation that takes re-procs into account?
EDIT: btw, taking my shot rotation questions to the shot rotation thread here.
The thing to confirm would be your shots per second. To find it did you take a fully repeatable cycle and average it out? For instance, one typical fully repeatable cycle is:
auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady repeat
Once you find a fully repeatable cycle (aka, can always be done, over and over again), take the number of shots and divide it by the duration. With that cycle and my current weapon I would get about .992 shots per second (2.52 speed * 4 autoshot-long cycle gives me 10.08 second cycle with 10 shots per cycle).
This actually kinda relates to our shot-cycle discussion, it would seem with MT that a cycle like:
auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady
might get you more shots, let's see...(2.52*5 =12.6, but with the slight auto-delay needed to pull this off it's really 13.04, with 13 shots gets you .996 shots per second). So it would seem, that if you can keep it up perfectly this second rotation gets you more shots per second (and thus more damage, more MTs, more EW, etc). At least, it's true w/ my current gun and haste effects.
Did Cheeky or anyone ever finalize a MT equation that takes re-procs into account?
In answer to your question, yeah, I actually did my shot cycle out to about 40 places for the repeat as well... heh. But yeah, I ended up with right at 0.9 SPS. I may have been inaccurate on that, but I don't think I was.
In any case, that doesn't change the actual equation, which is what I'm trying to figure out if it is accurate. Re-procs I did not take into account, though really they "should" only account for about 0.009% overall give or take. I'll see if I can put together a realistic inclusion of that though.
I think the key to accurately finding MT's worth is to find the %uptime, and use that to then find the effective crit increase. It seems to me the best way to do this would be to figure out the expected uptime of MT for a given time period. Since we can create repeatable cycles it would seem ideal to use a shot cycle as our time period (or more likely a string of shot-cycles to have a bit larger of a window). But, then you get into how many shots are going to fire while MT is up, which will rely on where in your cycle it procs (if it procs say on the first auto in an auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady section that would be 11 shots w/ +10% crit, as opposed to say procing on the first arcane in an arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady which would get you only 9 shots at +10% crit). Hmm...it would seem for MT a simulation really would be the best way to find it's average crit increase.
Has anyone done an MT simulation? I know there was talk about doing one for IAotH. Or is there some form of equation that could take these variable states into account?
I think the key to accurately finding MT's worth is to find the %uptime, and use that to then find the effective crit increase. It seems to me the best way to do this would be to figure out the expected uptime of MT for a given time period. Since we can create repeatable cycles it would seem ideal to use a shot cycle as our time period (or more likely a string of shot-cycles to have a bit larger of a window). But, then you get into how many shots are going to fire while MT is up, which will rely on where in your cycle it procs (if it procs say on the first auto in an auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady section that would be 11 shots w/ +10% crit, as opposed to say procing on the first arcane in an arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady which would get you only 9 shots at +10% crit). Hmm...it would seem for MT a simulation really would be the best way to find it's average crit increase.
Has anyone done an MT simulation? I know there was talk about doing one for IAotH. Or is there some form of equation that could take these variable states into account?
Well, I did multiple in-game tests... what I did was set myself at 0/20/35 and fired off 200 shot intervals at full rotation. Then I would mana up and repeat. I did this 5 times (1000 shots fired). I then went to 0/20/41 (readiness doesn't matter for this test) and did the same thing. I ended up with ~6% higher overall dps. At the time I had the same weapon I do now, though slightly lower stats. Worth noting though also, I missed 1 shot more after I had MT, but I accounted for that. In any case, that was well over a month ago, and I didn't keep a log of it (my bad). So those numbers are approximations.
Thing is, I didn't, in any way, record up-time of MT, just the end results for damage & dps.
I think I figured out the way of determining the re-proc average btw... trying to simplify it right now, but basically I came up with ~1%-1.5% less overall crit due to reprocs. That puts the results far more in line with our estimates.
Did Cheeky or anyone ever finalize a MT equation that takes re-procs into account?
Yep, it's correctly (to my knowledge) modeled based on the specified shot rotation in the spreadsheet. The numbers are accurate for any point after 8 seconds from the start of combat. It is a simple uptime calculation.
Unless you really, really want Readiness, or your weapon speed is less that 15% ineffecient, you are always better off putting 6 points in low BM talents (IAotH and FF) than MT & Readiness.
07/12/07, 3:04 AM
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