I'm currently BM spec for arena, however I have come to enjoy 0/28/33 aka http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZqVbRVzhhZIhb0tcMhV0h while thrill of the hunt is an excellent talnet I believe it needs to be similar to the t3 6piece bonus so that it gives mana back from autoshots, I also have no mana problems so I decided against using it.

I have read that MT is ~3.9% crit on these forums, however I don't find it's worth it since raid buffed i push 42% crit (with druid) without MT.

90% of the time I will be grouped with a feral druid and shaman for goa hitting 106X agil and giving a nice ap buff to the target. with this setup im pushing almost 1200dps with scorpid on fights like mag, and around 900dps on gruul.

I have trialed 5/20/36 and found the haste procs required more effort to keep up the same dps as 0/25/36 or 0/28/33, however I do play with a 400ms ping.

saying this I do around 100 more dps with bm spec but its much more effort to keep up the dps and I rather just be survival and be able to pay extra attention to the fight.

Where is your pet? Even as a Survival spec your pet should be doing 100+ DPS. Also, most spreadsheets (I know mine does) provide numbers against a 0 armor target. You can fiddle with armor values to see how that effects the damage outputs. Once you get an armor value that matches your average shot damage you'll have a better idea what your personal DPS is.

Also, is Hunter's Mark up and refreshed? My spreadsheet assumes it is kept at +440 RAP.

Your shots aren't hitting for any less than mine, but I have 300+ DPS coming from my pet, which makes up the difference in our numbers.

Aye; I keep a close eye on Hunter's Mark to make sure it stays up at all times. You do bring up a good point though; I do underutilize my pet, and it sounds like I might be able to push a bit more out with him on the target instead of by my side.

MT vs Imp AotH:


For purposes of this discussion, R = average shot rate. (So 1.25 if you tend to shoot twice every 2.5 seconds. OK, so technically this is average time per shot rather than shots per time. Sue me. It'll work.)



MASTER TACTICIAN

This is the easier of the two. In a given period of 8 seconds prior to the shot you are taking, there is a 1 - (.94)^(8/R) chance of MT being up. Other than the "1-" part, that is the chance to not activate in any of those shots. So if you can pull off one shot every second, Master Tactician will be up about 39% of the time, for an average contribution of 3.9%.

Of course, that's best case scenario. In intermittent or short fights, the advantage is much less, but since we're comparing it to Improved Hawk, we'll disregard this.

A 3.9% increase is +3.9% of your non-crit DPS added overall, or 5.1% with Mortal Shots. If you've got 30% crit and Mortal Shots, you're already doing ~139% of non-crit, so jumping to 144% is an actual increase of about 3.6% total damage.

By contrast, if you're shooting every 1.25 seconds, you'll get an uptime of about 32.6%, an effective crit rate of 3.3%. If you're somehow shooting every 0.75 seconds, you'd get an uptime around 48%, or a boon of 4.8%. As you can infer from the previous example, whatever percentage you DO have, is probably slightly less of a percent of your total damage with Mortal Shots.



IMPROVED ASPECT OF THE HAWK

Because the probability is dependent on if we are hasted or not, we have to break this in half.

If hawk is not active, it will take 10 shots to retrigger on average. This takes 10R seconds.

Once it is active, it will last 12 seconds if it is not retriggered. You will fire 12/R shots in that time, each with a 10% chance of reinitiating Hawk. The chance of none of those succeeding is 0.9^(12 / R/1.15) = 0.9^(13.8/R)...so one minus that is the chance of retriggering.

However, we could retrigger off the retrigger, and retrigger off of that...we end up with the sum of a geometric series. So the average number of retriggers is going to be 0.9^(-13.8/R). (Sum of a geometric series is 1 / 1-P.) This number includes the original trigger.

Time to make a few assumptions so the math is relatively simple:
1) Assume that on average a reproc will add 6 seconds (half the duration) to the active period. This is slightly faulty, since the shot it activates on will be front-heavy, but it can't activate for at least R/1.15 time, so we'll pretend that balances out.
2) Assume that a 15% haste will increase your damage by 15%. Theoretically, it should. Work = Rate * Time, so +15% rate in the same time should be +15% work. In practice, it might not.

Then we have an uptime of...6+6*[0.9^(-13.8/R)]...31.7 seconds if you were attacking once per second without Quick Shots. The downtime was 10R, or 10 seconds. So the effect will be active 31.7 out of 41.7 seconds, or 76% of the time. That's an effective 11.4% haste increase, for 11.4% damage!

If we assume a slower attack rate, say 1.25, then the result is 25.2 up, 12.5 down, active on average 67%, for a 10% increase.



There's really no question which one is better, until the haste starts screwing with your shot cycles. If maintaining a 1 second shot speed as a non-BM hunter requires a slow weapon with a tight specials cycle, 15% haste very well might F you up. However, even for straight auto-steady, it's still a very good increase. We're talking a magnitude of about 3:1 in value, unless you start putting in contingencies like "but I like to use Aspect of the Viper," "I mostly PvP and so I never use autoshot," or "but the extra crit adds more than just raw damage for a survival hunter."

In fact, if I did the math right...and I've done it before and don't remember it being THIS good, so maybe I haven't...this is better damage than all other talents except SS or maybe MS.

IAotH can only proc off "normal ranged attacks" which seems to just include auto-attacks. I just hopped on my hunter and cast about 100 R1 arcane shots on a mob while running (so no autoshots), with zero procs. Then I stopped moving, autoshot 3 times and experienced a proc, then I cast 50 more arcane shots while running, no procs. This pushes the uptime down significantly.

Where is your Multi Shot also?

Yes i know you will very likely clip rotation when doing "Auto, Steady+Multi, Auto" part of it. But will increase your damage (and mana usage), and sometimes when you get used to it you might execute it perfectly.

I don't use Iaoth and other hastes under 30% since they screw me over two times.
First it's demanding on focus and adaptation to proc. (going from max special rotation to one special per auto in any given combat situation ).
Second my max rotation has bigger dps as one special per auto.

I do use rapid fire tho. Its more mana conserve move than dps and fitting MS+Arcane in rotation all the time is costly.

Regarding the MT vs IAotH stuff:
There's some interesting posts on the matter here, ~page 7 / post 151 and onwards.

Blah, I knew there was something that was only on standard attacks. I had forgotten which ability it was. That accounts for the overshoot.

Alright, so if I fire auto at a rate of once per 2.5 (outside Quick Shots), that's 16.7 up and 25 down for an average of 40%. That works out to a 6% increase, which is more in-line with what I was expecting.

This is true, but all epic weapons in the game are funneled into a fairly small space, (essentially 2.7-3.0,) and this thread is specifically about survival hunters, so Serpent's Swiftness is not under consideration. The domain for shot speed is 2.35 to 2.61. This makes the range vary from 42.7% up to 38.6%. Not that great a variance. I think it's safe to simply call it 40.

Faster auto = faster steady, if you're using a steady-auto rotation. With a shot speed of, say, 2.4 you will wait the extra 0.9 seconds past the GCD before firing the steady. Decreasing that to 2.1 means only waiting for 0.6 seconds, so yes it does actually hasten your steady shot damage.

But that's if you're using a strict steady rotation, and I'm sure others will be quick to point out they feel that is sub-optimal for non-BM. I'm not a member of the mana potion fanclub, and until recently I was still using a blue with a faster shot speed, so I still think in terms of auto-steady. With the increasing amounts of haste items emerging, I don't think it's completely unfair of me to do so.

Can someone link any interesting WWS report(s) along with spec used.
I'm bit struggling with rotation / speeds / builds. And would like to see more data - hunter logs if possible. (checking entire WWS thread for SV hunters, but can't figure out build used for most)

Lady Vashj - wipefest:

0/28/33 build - 2 specials per auto rotation
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...na3myosq&a=100
3.3k multi shot crits just made me O.O (barrage, pvp gloves, mortal shots, slaying, relentless)
(was on Vashj only so full report shows combined data from all 7 tries for me)


Also learning Vashj and being on elemental duty. Any hunter tips?

Few mine:
*get dive/dash pet, not having it blows
*stop using arcane-multi 10sec before tainted spawn (you can solo it with fast response)
*41y range recommended for learning, hunting bats in f3

From log:
2.54 (2.9) speed - no hastes ever

Multi Shot:

Multi-Auto combo on end puzzles me a bit. This is clipped shotting but auto dealt damage 15-120ms later? What I am missing here? Combatlog reading lesion??

0.5 delay, where is it?

Steady + Arcane:
This doesn't make sense either. See auto-auto difference its 2.375 ? From where? I don't get it I had 0 hastes during entire fight.

I expected something like this:
Its delayed auto and it fits with numbers, 2.6 between autos, 0.5 delay arcane > auto.

Anyone with ideas?

I thought about flight time too. But wouldn't that delay both MS and Auto shot?
And why some are correct while some are unexpected?

Its not crazy clock issue (Juggernaut) checked that first.