Well yes indeed I was more than aware of the max DPS items available to us and I have already posted the single most DPS setup available (using Cheeky's) here http://elitistjerks.com/668145-post1193.html If nothing else it has got some decent discussion going for best setups.

Aye, aside from making sure I have 210 bages for 2.4 for the melee ring and to play around with the bow I'm not that interested in 2.4 until we have some of the content on farm at least.

Aye, stats for the Agi build are:- using Kael neck

Health: 10,162
Armor: 7557
Mana: 7228
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 34.48%
Hit vs. Level 73: 99.96% (94 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 43.16%
Hunter DPS: 1028.97
Pet DPS: 192.37
Total DPS: 1221.34
EW Uptime: 98.11%
Average EW proc: 244.83 AP
Effective RAP: 3307

From gear with enchants and race:

Armor: 5561
Strength: 84
Agility: 998
Stamina: 585
Intellect: 275
Spirit: 100
AP: 1144
Crit: 186
Hit: 94
mp5: 8
Pen: 392
Haste: 0

I'm well aware what [Glinting Pyrestone] can do, however as you can see its not needed. As for the 2 X [Dagger of Bad Mojo] they provide the best DPS for sure but they give Zero Hit which is a problem at this gear level.

See below for the gear swaps recomended if you want to chase personal DPS

Whitefyst I agree with most of the info you post generally however this is one that I simply can't agree on. Given your criteria of a max limit of 2 leather pieces justifying you choosing [Star-Strider Boots] I would argue that [Cobra-Lash Boots] are a superior non leather choice. Not only are the int and stamina stas superior, the 3 agi bonus actually supports the meta as a 3rd bonus.

So all in all we have 4 leather pieces up for grabs, these are [Cursed Vision of Sargeras], [Don Alejandro's Money Belt], [Shadowmaster's Boots] and [Insidious Bands]. All 4 provide DPS upgrades over the max Agi items posted above. The really sad thing with this set up is we drop possibly the single most awsome survival piece in the game, [Bow-Stitched Leggings] in favour of the very ordinary [Gronnstalker's Leggings]

If its personal DPS that you want then simply substitute all 4 leather pieces for max DPS, the only exceptions are the awsome wrists [Insidious Bands], which I somehow missed and the very interesting haste pieces [Cloak of Fiends], [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] which also increase personal DPS hugely (according to Cheeky's).

So to conclude this is the 1/2 way house setup considered to be "best"

Weapon

[Halberd of Desolation]for the hit, although 2 X [Dagger of Bad Mojo] are a substantial DPS upgrade
[Enchant 2H Weapon - Major Agility]

Helmet:
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Item not found!]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]

Neck:
[Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem]

Shoulders:
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Greater Inscription of Vengeance]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Back:
[Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Greater Inscription of Vicious Agility]

Chest:
[Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus
[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] Take the green for the Meta Bonus

Wrists:
[Insidious Bands]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Formula: Enchant Bracer - Greater Stats]

Hands:
[Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Belt:
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Legs:
[Gronnstalker's Leggings]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Feet:
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Vereesa's Dexterity]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Rings:
[Band of the Eternal Champion]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]

[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Formula: Enchant Ring - Stats]

Trinkets:
[Berserker's Call]

[Madness of the Betrayer] Needed for the hit

Ranged Weapon:
[Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]

Stats for this set up are:-

Health: 11086
Armor: 6461
Mana: 6058
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 32.36%
Hit vs. Level 73: 100% (99 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 42.88%
Hunter DPS: 1095.02
Pet DPS: 190.36
Total DPS: 1285.39
EW Uptime: 97.66%
Average EW proc: 236.33 AP
Effective RAP: 3405

From gear with enchants and race:

Armor: 4570
Strength: 84
Agility: 945
Stamina: 669
Intellect: 197
Spirit: 100
AP: 1288
Crit: 212
Hit: 99
mp5: 11
Pen: 392
Haste: 0

How useful is Armor Pen? Would 2x [Blade of Infamy] be better than 2x [Dagger of Bad Mojo]. Overall it'd be 14 more Agi, and 32 more AP at the loss of 280 Armor Pen.

Tiberium, Whitefyst and somerandomidiot all have good points about the most optimal gear including all these rogue-leather pieces.

But seriously... if you're like most of us aren't aren't lucky to have 30-40+ kills of every boss in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, and/or have thousands of gold to spend chain-chugging multiple stacks of [Fel Mana Potion] on every raid-night, spend your hard-earned DKP on the items Blizzard actually made for us :

[Boneweave Girdle]
[Quickstrider Moccasins] or [Softstep Boots of Tracking]
[Bracers of the Pathfinder] or [Wraps of Precise Flight]
[Gronnstalker's Helmet]

Particularly the last one... come on guys, the 4-piece T6 bonus will outweigh whatever increased DPS you'd be gaining by wearing the leather helm.

They will all serve you just as well, losing a miniscule-amount of DPS from the leather gear, and hey, you might actually have enough mana to chug [Haste Potion] instead.

Cheers...
-End.

Raidbuffed and on a raid debuffed target, the armor pen on the daggers is significantly better than the 14 agi and 32 ap from Infamy.

Isn't the purpose of high end PvE gear to maximize dps? If so, then why should I pass on leather and settle for "almost as good"? I even picked up the guild first drop of CVoS, which pissed the rogues off but they got over it quickly.

For SV, both Pathfinder and Precise Flight are meh. The T6 helm is the weakest of all the pieces and by replacing it with CVoS, you'll likely have a helm that will last even throughout the entirety of Sunwell, especially considering Felmyst drops some very, very nice legs. I wear best in slot (excepting that damned chest ring that never drops), which means I have 4 pieces of leather and a buffed mana pool of about 7k. Our other hunters have buffed mana pools of about 9k, but with a ret paladin, chaining el cheapo volatile mana pots is sufficient to keep me going indefinitely. Council, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor, and perhaps Illidan, are the only fights where I often have to upgrade to super manas.

Anytime someone suggests using Cursed Vision, there is an assumption that you switch over to Gronnstalker pants to get the 4pc.

If you look at Tiberium's post, he used Chest, Legs, Shoulders, and Gloves for the 4-piece bonus.

Obviously, when you've been killing Illidan since last year you can clearly pick and choose gear a lot better. These generally reflect "ideal" lists, and someone like me who only has a half dozen Illidan kills or so has to make obvious sacrifices. 2.4 will certainly be nice in the sense that all the extra T6 pieces kick a whole lot ot ass.

It's indeed agreed that 4/5 T6 is not worth braking, and that usually the legs are the piece most likely to be left out. However, as you just pointed out, not everyone is lucky enough to reach the hit cap. So, it's a matter of priorities; dump Bow Stitched, and stick with tier 6 for that slot, or get CVS instead of the tier 6 helm.

Basically, CVS is better than T6 Helm and Bow Stitched are better than T6 Legs.
However, 4/5 T6 is better than everything else any other single piece would grant you. So you need to choose which of the two slots would be better to sacrifice tier 6 for your particular situation, not depending on what theorycraft says. If you already have 2xBad Mojo, for instance, then you stick with tier 6 legs and get CVS. If you have Desolation, stick with tier 6 helm and Bow Stitched.

Just wondering, lets assume for a sec that [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is not an option for me (it isn't, way too many ahead of me in line). So, as far as the big 5 slots go, just all Gronnstalkers? Or swap out one of them for a mail DPS piece like [Forest Prowler's Helm], [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator], or [Bow-Stitched Leggings]?

In that situation, that's what I'd do. I like the Bow-Stitched leggings because they have 3 gems that let you entirely take care of your meta requirement or just add 30 agility. It's what I use now, the Cursed Vision has dropped once I believe for my guild, so it may be a while before I get a shot at it, or figure it's worth the DKP. As I understand it, cursed vision is the best 5th piece for rogues.

Would you break the slot bonus for CVS with a red gem if you could? Or is the 6 stam special for some reason?

To each there own. I only express what I believe is the best for my character and provide that information for others to evaluate on whether it is better for their characters or not. What is best for me, especially in close calls like this, may not be best for someone else.

Concerning [Star-Strider Boots] or [Cobra-Lash Boots], I found that choosing between the 2 was a very close call and could have gone either way, but here is what it came down to for me. With assuming that my meta socket requirements are already met with other pieces, I would be putting agi gems into both. With that done, the two boots have identical agility and AP and provide the exact same amount of DPS and EW benefits. Thus, the decision of which is better falls onto the comparison of the secondary stats. [Cobra-Lash Boots] has 12 more stamina and 7 more intellect, which equates for my character to +132 health, +105 mana, and slightly better AoV. On the other hand, [Star-Strider Boots] has 4 mp5.

Comparing the two, I can see a lot of people legitimately choosing [Cobra-Lash Boots] (CLB), and I have no problem with that. However, for my character and situation, I preferred [Star-Strider Boots] (SSB). I already have plenty of health raid buffed so that the +132 health from CLB, although nice, is not a deciding factor. The slightly better AoV from CLB is also nice, but considering that I try to avoid/limit using AoV as much as possible, that benefit is not a huge deciding factor either. What was the deciding factor for me was the mana. The +105 mana from CLB is overcome by the 4 mp5 of SSB after 2 min and 12 s. Now I realize that this is not a huge benefit, but I felt that it was the most important for my current character and guild situation. My guild is still progressing, and we currently are only 3/5 MH and 3/9 BT. Thus, all of our boss fights still tend to be on the longer side of the durations. We do not experience any 3 min boss fights like a lot of you do that are farming MH/BT. Hence, the extra mana late in the fight does help some.

Now from a practical standpoint, SSB was the better option for me too since I knew that we would be killing Solarian many times and have several opportunities for SSB at a cheap price but would only be killing Vashj a few times with little opportunity for CLB and with people fighting over them at a high price. When SSB dropped for my guild for the first time (which was way before we even made out first attempts at Vashj), I bid just over min DKP for them (since I knew I would have other chances) and won them since no one else bid. When I asked other possible bidders why they didn't bid, they all stated that they were waiting for CLB. That was good for me, but I tried to explain to them how equivalent the two boots were from a DPS standpoint and how they could get SSB for cheap for a big upgrade over their current boots. The next time they dropped. I persuaded one of our other hunters to bid min on them, and he won them. The third time they dropped, I was able to persuade our enchancement shammy to get them for min, which he did. The 4th time they dropped, the third hunter in our guild passed on them waiting for CBL, so they got sharded. Our guild never saw CBL drop in the 5 times we killed Vashj, so that third hunter of ours is doing MH/BT with very inferior boots when he could have had SSB for min DKP with the exact same DPS benefits as CBL. Plus, with getting them for min, he could still have bid on CLB to replace them if he wanted to later if they dropped.

Now concerning my version of the list, that was only my ideal wish list. With where my guild is at, I by no means have most of that gear. In fact, I have only 2 of the pieces, and am pretty certain at least one of the pieces (the cloak) I will never get since my guild does not plan to ever kill Kael again, especially considering that after 2.4 we will not have to get recruits attunned for MH/BT. I also realize that I probably will not get several of the MH/BT pieces and that I will have to make due with the best gear that I am actually able to acquire. The list was my wish list, but I also know my backup choices for each slot too for until I get my wishes and can use them or for if I do not get my wishes. So yes, I feel the pain of those out there that will not be able to get all their "ideal" pieces since I am one of you. A person can dream though ....

No, as a survival, you wouldn't want to put anything other than a spinel in it, unless you haven't got enough sockets for the RED prereq on your gear. However, you've got a shot at COV, which probably means you can get more than enough sockets on other pieces. MAYBE, as a MM or BM, you could toss in a + crit or + hit yellow gem, if you were really low, but it'd still be a waste.

All this gear talk has gotten me thinking, and so I'll pose the question to you guys. Assuming all pre-Sunwell and 2.4 gear available in the game, what is the very best survival gearset possible? Assume 10 physical dps members each gaining 1 dps per 8 Attack Power your Expose Weakness gives them.

So in other words, we want the max of
(Personal DPS) + (Expose Weakness DPS)
where Expose Weakness DPS = ((Agility / 4) / 4) * 10 = (Agility / 1.6)

Use Cheeky's most current spreadsheet version, with a 0/20/41 spec (I'm sure you all know how to build that) and a 1:1.X Rotation with both multi and arcane shot. Ignore time to OOM.

Race:
Go with Night Elf here, it's a good standard race and allows us to ignore the effects of racials, as no Night Elf racials affect raid DPS.

Gear:
Assume every piece of gear is available in the game pre2.4, and you have an infinite supply of all the epic gems you could want, and any enchant you could want. I'm pretty sure you'll want to use 4piece T6 and mostly BT/Hyjal gear, but if something else gives more DPS, run with it. If you end up wearing all cloth, that's entirely fine- you're not tanking, you're DPSing. One final requirement- you must have over 8.5k health. Najentus makes that a hard minimum, but somehow I doubt it's going to be a problem.

Buffs:
Assume a group of you, a feral druid, a shaman (not necessarily enhancement), and 2 other members who will not affect you. This is on average what I get, and I feel it's pretty normal for BT/Hyjal guilds. Also assume Agility food (a Warp Burger is fine) and whichever flask/elixir combination gives you the most DPS. I think this will be Major Agility, but I'm not 100% sure. Also assume all primary raid buffs, such as Kings, Might, MotW, etc are present and talented if possible.

Debuffs:
Assume Improved Hunters Mark, Curse of Shadows with 3/3 Malediction, 5/5 Sunder Armor, Curse of Recklessness, and Faerie Fire (not improved, I don't think most guilds run with a moonkins).

The goal of this is to determine the optimum gear setup for your average survival hunter in a T6 guild. I know my solutions aren't the best, and I think a solid conversation on this could be very beneficial.

Spreadsheet Thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t9816-hu...-_development/

Don't nelfs....get extra agility. And most gear optimization is earlier in the thread. Using a setup similar to yours only with orc instead of nelf.

The night elf racial is 1% extra dodge. You might get a single figure difference between the base agility scores of a level 70 orc and night elf hunter, but nothing significant.

Orcs also have Blood Fury and Command, both of which will give them a higher dps than a race with racials that don't affect DPS like a Night Elf.

I had some free time so here's what I get :

Night Elf with all buffs and mob debuffs talented (except Faerie Fire) but True Shot Aura and Battle Shout for pet (Windserpent) vs 7700 armor lvl 73 boss
Gear:
-Halberd of Desolation, 35 agi
-T6 helm, Glyph of Ferocity, gems : 10 agi + R.E.D.
-Necklace of the Deep, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-T6 Spaulders, Greater Inscription of the Blade (Scryers), gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Thalassian Wildercloak, 12 agi
-T6 Chest, 6 all stats, gems : 10 agi + 7 stam / 5 crit + 7 stam / 5 crit
-Insidious Bands, 24 AP, gem : 10 agi
-T6 Gloves, 15 agi, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Don Alejandro's Money Belt, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Bow-stitched Leggings, 50 AP + 12 crit, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi + 10 agi
-Shadowmaster's Boots, 12 agi, gems : 10 agi + 10 agi
-Signet of Primal Wrath + Band of the Eternal Champion, both with
-Madness of the Betrayer + Tsunami Talisman
-Bristleblitz Striker, 28 crit
-Quiver 15% + Timeless Arrow

Agility 1304,22
Tooltip RAP 3090
Hit Rating 91 (Chance to hit vs lvl 73 : 99,77%)
Hunter DPS : 1728,18
Pet DPS : 351,32
EW DPS = agi / 1.6 = 812,76
Total DPS = 2893,61

JustWait, why the Halberd and not 2 x Daggers like Mojo or Infamy?

Because he'd be at 60ish hit rating, otherwise.

Some random ramblings from me here. Mainly to break up this barrage of item lists and 'best macro' posts.

For me this is always the [Ring of Lethality]. Every time I eliminate it from my setup I get a new item and back it comes.
The major pull for Survival for me these days is the satisfaction gained from playing the item mini game.

What is somewhat annoying is the lack of good cloaks. From recently levelling a new alt, you get nothing but cloaks as quest rewards and drops.
When it comes to the endgame situation, however, you have:

[Drape of the Dark Reavers]
[Blood Knight War Cloak]
[Thalassian Wildercloak]

The Drape is generally more beneficial to rogues at that level of itemisation. AP is not so hot either.
Blood Knight's is badge loot and usually what most people have. Nice item for its level.
Kael's cape is a total crap shoot. If you got it in the short time you farmed Kael you were very lucky.

It's probably too late now but a decent Survival cape in 2.4 would have been very welcome.

On the subject of weapons. If you get your hit rating to a reasonable level the [Dagger of Bad Mojo] combo is a visible boost in personal dps.
It's not a tiny increase at all. Your critical strikes really benefit from the raw damage boost. Which makes me reconsider the Coif of the Ugly Stalker for sure.
Even if you have the halberd it's well worth tagging along to ZA with the alts or on speed runs.

As for what 2.4 brings. I've not been blown away by any of the loot that's been seen but am certainly looking forward to some gear juggling.

That is correct, and those 30 hit are worth a lot more then the ap/agi/apen

Great Idea!

Total DPS: 2883.68
Hunter DPS: 1950.69
Pet DPS: 231.74
EW DPS: 1122 Agility / 1.6 = 701.25
Avg EW on Mob: 279.06
Rotation: 1:1.5
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5)
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Wrap Burger, Elixir of Agi,
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR

Gear:
weapon
[Shiv of Exsanguination] x2

head
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Design: Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel]

neck
[Telonicus' Pendant of Mayhem]

shoulders
[Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Item not found!]
[Design: Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]

back
[Thalassian Wildercloak]

chest
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]
[Design: Stone of Blades]
[Design: Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel]

wrist
[Gronnstalker's Bracers]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel]

hands
[Pattern: Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel] x2

waist
[Gronnstalker's Belt]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel]

leggs
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel] x3

feet
[Gronnstalker's Boots]
[Design: Delicate Crimson Spinel]

rings
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Angelista's Revenge]

trinkets
[Berserker's Call]
[Madness of the Betrayer]

bow
The Legendary!

Basically the choice comes down to what T6 you will wear to complete the 4piece set bonus (assuming you get bracers, boots, and belt) The choice becomes: T6 gloves and [Mantle of the Golden Forest] or T6 shoulders and [Pattern: Gloves of Immortal Dusk] My dps came out higher wearing the T6 shoulders and using the leather gloves.
As you can see most of the items are leather!

111 Hit Rating but I couldn't find any space to drop any for higher dps.