There is a great thread explaining all about shot rotations here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13107-h...n_illustrated/

That should give you a solid enough understanding of shot rotations to be able to comprehend what we're discussing here.

The numbers I quoted as haste do not include quiver haste (I tend to ignore it, as we all have it no matter what) but don't nclude Serpents Swiftness, since as a high end Beastmaster talent, I doubt many Survival hunters would have it. To give you an idea, a BM hunter with 20% haste from Serpents Swiftness would use the 3:2 rotation, just as a Survival hunter would under the affect of Heroism (35% haste). A BM hunter under the effect of Heroism, however, would use a 1:1 rotation, since the combined result of the hastes makes 1:1 a more efficient rotation.

As far as weapon speed is concerned, I don't think it makes too much of a difference. All of my stuff is based off weapons of 3.0 speed, as those seem to be the most common in end game raids, but dropping down to even a 2.8 isn't going to make a huge difference. If you really want to deal with it, you can look at a faster weapon as just having more haste. In this case, a 2.7 speed weapon would be equivalent to a 3.0 speed weapon with 10% haste- you just don't get to take advantage of the increased damage that a 3.0 speed weapon combined with haste would give you.

I honestly don't know where the "sweet spot" is, but since haste comes in discrete amounts (i.e. you get 45% haste from Rapid Fire, 35% from Heroism, 20something% from DST, etc) you don't have to worry about the line at which point you swap over. If you are seriously hasted (I'd consider this anything but Drums or a small amount of haste gear) you want to use a 3:2 rotation, or a 1:1 rotation if you've reached the point where it becomes effective.

As for why we call it a 3:2 rotation, I have no clue...

@Leighlu: I've tried something similar to that macro, and had issues getting it to work- /cast and /castrandom don't seem to get along too well. If you could get it working, that'd be the ideal macro as far as I was concerned.

Edit: Dang, I'm a slow one today...

I totaly comprehend what you are discussing here but, I mess up the 1:1.5 shot rotation because for me it is impossible to weave in arcane & multi shot manually and I am looking for tips.

That's exactly why some of us use macros for our rotations. If you read through the exceedingly long post I made on the previous page, you'll see a discussion of what macros to use, but for simplicity's sake:

/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi Shot

is a good macro to start with. By pressing this macro, you will generate the following shot rotation (assuming no haste):
Auto -> Steady -> Arcane -> Auto -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Multi -> Auto -> Steady -> Repeat

which is what we refer to as a 1:1.5 rotation. All that's saying is that there are 1.5 specials (Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, and Multishot) for every 1 Auto Shot.

Everytime I spam the macro it just spams autoshot. Any idea why?

which one are you spamming? look over the macro again and make sure you copied it right and there are no spaces or anything like that where there shouldnt be.

I gotta ask... do you actually have the second macro at that button?

I had it set to left, and the placement was right. Still, steadies should be fired off, non?

Ok, I'm slow. For some reason they don't fire off unless you add the 2nd macro. That is strange.

Its a 2 part macro, made specifically so the KC does not get stuck when you switch to the 3:2 macro...you HAVE to have the 2nd macro in the right place in order for it to work correctly.

Essentially, there are 3 macros:
The first is the 1:1.5 macro which will auto weave arcane shot/multi shot for you (as well as cast LB if you have a WS, and do KC).

The second one is a 3:2 (3 steady shots for every 2 Auto Shots) macro that you would use when you are at a moderate haste level (above drums).

The third macro works with the 2nd macro to make it so you can still use Kill Command while hasted, as it will not get stuck (which is a common bug right now for BM Hunters using this macro). This macro has to be in a specific location (as mention in the guide I linked in the initial post). If you dont have this macro in the right place, than it obviously wont work correctly.

Ok, so why is this in the SV thread? And I only see two macros?

You only see two macros? In that whole block of text you quoted from me, you only see two macros?

Why did I post it in this SV thread? Did you even read my post...or any of this thread?

Eureka!!! The penny is dropping but hasn't reached the floor yet!!!

The dramatics are so that you and Vasilii carry on doing your good work under the correct fundamental pretext..... A 3:2 rotation for a Survival Hunter doesn't exist. Its 2:1

By George he's got it!!! I can't believe you've actually written it black and white and still call it a 3:2??? There is only you and Vasilii who calls Auto -> Steady -> Steady a 3:2 rotation. For the love of cookies please let us all know where you got this from because its leading to endless confusion.

We don't have an understanding as youv'e just confused everyone, substitute 2:1 for 3:2 and what you say may or may not be true, it changes for every player based on many variables.

Please please please look at what you have written! ... why? change to 2:1

2:1 etc. etc. etc.

BOTTOM LINE

The 3:2 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady

This is what BM hunters get when using

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

The 2:1 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady

This is what Survival or Marksman hunters get when using

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

Aside from the 3:2 reference this is where you and I part company. Lets use an example of 100 shots.... using the following macro

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

Unhasted we get 66 Steady Shots and 33 Auto Shots. Thats 2:1 for those not paying attention.

Now lets add Arcanes and Multis into that same 100 shots (Using Quiggyb for ref) and we get 43 Steady Shots 35 Auto Shots 13 Arcane Shots and 9 Multis.

So why the hell would we want to cost ourselves 10% damage on the 23 missing Steady Shots??? assuming of course we have 4 X T6 bonus.

We will be able to when you stop using the BM 3:2 rotation.

I had a good chance tonight to test the new macro combo, and this is what I saw:

Using the macro I provided above, (which is the BM 3:2 macro), when I get Heroism, it does the standard 3:2 rotation...which is
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady (meaning 3 steady shots for every 2 auto shots)

However, when you get MORE Haste than that (for example, if you add in a haste pot, drums or rapid fire), than it automatically switches to a 1:1 rotation. I will also go on to say that it never got stuck on KC, and the pet continued to do LB just fine.

The only time I ever saw my rotation do a 2:1 (2 Steady Shots for 1 Auto) was when I used the "haste" macro when I was not hasted. At THAT point, and only that point, did it drop to a 2:1 rotation. And using that rotation (2:1) seemed to drop my DPS compared to switching back to my normal 1:1.5 (which includes Multi/Arcane), that I use when I am non-hasted. However, I am going to be doing some long trm testing tomorrow in Blasted Lands comparing the 2 rotations (Blasted Lands over Dr. Boom since the bombs cause extra DPS when using Multi).

That was just my observation from using it for a full Naxx clear tonight (yes, Naxx!).

The real question comes down to, is Arcane or Multi > Steady? If your Steady Shots do more damage than either Arcane Shot or Multi Shot, than I would assume going to a 2:1 (2 steadys for 1 auto) would be the obvious choice. I also have points in Barrage...so well see what kind of difference that makes also.

Whoa! Stop right there before you add further to the confusion.

YES! it is indeed the BM 3:2 macro

BUT! it is more to the point the Survival 2:1 macro, so lets refer to it as the 2:1 Survival Macro please and not the BM 3:2 macro. This is if you hadn't noticed the Survival thread.

Essentially the 1st part of the 2 part macro you posted is exactlty the same as we are talking about ie

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

Indeed it does, this is the 2:1 macro working as intended, once we reach 20% haste it moves to exactly the same rotation as the BM guys get unhasted Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady, which is fine and dandy.

Again correct, obviously for us to reach 1:1 with a 3.0 weapon we are talking substantial amounts of haste which is why Kurkis was seeing such high DPS by stacking haste for as long as humaly possible.

Again, let us not use yet another different name, refer to the macro as the 2:1. Indeed this is the basis of everything posted with reguards the Survival 2:1 Macro that has gone before, unhasted AND in general use it provides us with 66 Steady Shots for every 33 Autos, ie a 2:1 Rotation.

This again is a very valid point and will vary according to gear levels. With the T6 +10% to steady shot this is a no brainer.

If anyone is adding to the confusion, it is you. I was very clear in my post what macro I was using and how it was working. I call it the "Standard BM macro" because...well...it is. Thats where I got the macro from, and thats what it does when I am hasted (which is what I was using it for). If you want to call it a 2:1 rotation, go for it. But that rotation is not a commonly used rotation right now. The exact same macro does 3 different things...and its MOST common use right now is in BM. Thats why it is being referred that way. Again, in my post, I was VERY clear when the macro changed.

I am testing today to see the difference between a non hasted 2:1 macro (which is the exact same macro as the BM 3:2) and 1:1.5. I have 4piece T6 so I will get that bonus. My initial concern with the 2:1 non-hasted rotation is that it has a very high tendency to clip you auto-shots, as well as get "stuck" casting steady over and over and over again. SO I will have to mess around with the macro, and will probably have to switch it to a /castsequence instead of a /cast.

I did not include your original macro, as that one makes sense. But when I went to the thread discussing your two new ones he was talking about how this is purely a BM (bow speed 2.9 even) macro.

With respect to "are arcanes and multi's worth it?" - Obviously with +10% to steady the answer is no because your steadys will be doing as much or more than your arcanes. You only get one special per GCD so all you are doing is trading a steady for some other special. For a hunter in hyjal / bt who is close to but not quite at 4/5 T6 your arcanes will hit for 100 more dmg non-crit and 220 or so more dmg crit. This is at the cost of +100 mana and over the course of a 6 min fight represents something like a 25dps upgrade.

Quick math, someone corect me if I screw something up. Rounding those numbers a little and assuming an ~50% crit rate Id get 300 extra dmg every 2 arcanes. If I shoot an arcane every 6 seconds then thats 60 arcanes in 360 seconds = 9000 extra dmg for 6000 extra mana = 25 dps.

Seems like a pretty crappy tradeoff to me. Why wouldnt I just turn on kill command instead? If I had that kind of mana to spare I'd drop talents like TotH first and go deeper into the marks tree.

I still have trouble with the various macros chaining a few (3ish) steadys in a row from time to time. Not sure if this will change with a 3.0 spd weapon but Im hopeing it does. Trying to use KC makes this situation worse, even with the /click macro. In one test against the ghosts in DM North I did 78 steadys and 29 autos in 2 min. My latency as reported by the game is 60ms and I have a 2.9spd bow. That was unhasted btw. Hasted the macros seem to work fine. Its just when steady and auto land very near each other that that this happens. I can see where a little extra lag would prevent it as the server would not get the steady completed for a few hundred extra millis allowing the auto to fire. Maybe I need to hold up on the spamming when they are getting close like that?

Ok my testing is done, and these are the results I came up with. I did 10 full mana bar rotations for each macro test, on the same mob (Servent of Razelikh). I never used any +Haste effects or was wearing any items that would randomly increase my stats. I used my 4piece T6 for both tests and I am currently speced 0/25/36:

Test #1
Macro Used (1:1.5):
Results:
1) 1256
2) 1258
3) 1354
4) 1314
5) 1463
6) 1310
7) 1192
8) 1292
9) 1349
10) 1403
-----------------------
Average DPS = 1319.1

Test #2
Macro Used (2:1):
Results:
1) 1251
2) 1127
3) 1123
4) 1205
5) 1230
6) 1149
7) 1259
8) 1189
9) 1234
10) 1208
-----------------------
Average DPS = 1197.5

My thoughts:

This 2:1 macro has several issues. The first being that it has a HUGE tendency to get "stuck" casting Steady Shot over and over again without letting Auto Shot shoot off. Several times during the test of the 2:1 macro, I would shoot off 3-5 steady shots BEFORE the Auto Shot would finally take off. Near the end, I was actuaily trying to lift up on my macro button to try and make the Auto Shot fire off, but doing that during a boss fight is not piratical. Another issue I saw with the 2:1 was that when its not causing Auto Shot not to shoo off, its clipping the Auto Shot most of the time. You dont see this kind of clipping with a 1:1.5 rotation.

I tried, somewhere in the middle, to use a /castsequence macro instead of the other one. Using this I saw a dramatic increase in the clipping of the Auto Shots and what seems like a much slower reaction time for Steady Shots to go off. The ONLY advantage the /castsequence had over the one I used was that it never had a problem with having Auto Shot get "stuck".

I think in theory, the 2:1 could work well for us. But the macro has some serious issues with it. I think we would need at least some passive haste to prevent the clipping and to tighten up the rotation. However, and more importantly, I dont see this macro being very piratical (at least fore me) with it causing Auto Shot to get stuck and not fire when its supposed to.

Let me also state, that I tried several different variations of the 2:1 macro to try and get to the root of the problem of Auto Shot getting stuck (several of which I did not count in my "Results" section because either they did not work, or I only used a partial mana bar). If I took out the Kill Command line, it would still get hung up. It was only after I removed BOTH the Kill Command line and the Lightning Breath (when I removed the line, I just turned on my pets auto attack for LB) line that it seemed to not have as much issues. This is not to say it still did not clip, or get hung up on Auto Shot every now and then, but it seemed to happen less.

DISCLAIMER:
These results are my own from personal testing. I am in no way stating one rotation is better than the other, but rather what I found to be working best for myself. Take the results with a grain of salt, as for different people, these results will obviously be different. I did not WWS each result or screenshot every time one of my tests was done. I used 2 DPS meters (SWStats and Recount) at the same time to monitor my DPS. When My mana got down to 5%, I stopped DPS and wrote down the numbers. At no point did the two meters DPS differ from each other, so there was no reason to average out the difference between them.

I recommend just using recount to capture the shot counts and time, making a spreadsheeet and assigning dmg values to each shot. That way you dont have to worry about high crit rates vs low crit rates or things that proc stats. Lot less test samples required too. More shots in the same period produces more dps. Trading shots of one kind for another chanegs dps in a consistent way. Since you get some scaling on crit dmg its probably worth capturring a crit and non-crit value seprately.

I agree on the macro getting stuck on steady. Its horrible for me with kill command, annoying without it. I have tried every possible variaton of these things for hours and for me (2.9 spd weapon / 60ms latency) there isnt much I can do about it. Passive haste would fix it. 5% or so seems to do the trick.

The biggest problem with the 2:1 is Auto getting stuck. EVERY time it does not shoot correctly after that 2nd Stead Shot, its a loss of DPS...and I think can be seen with the results I got. This is one of those "looks good on paper" rotations, that, as of right now, even with the 4piece T6, is not piratical for me to use.

As for adding some passive haste, the question comes back into play...is it worth it? For whatever reason, Blizzard gave a HUGE iLvl to +Haste on items, which then takes away from other stats like AP or Agility. Sunwell has a lot of options for +Haste gear, but there are also a lot of options for gear with more AP, Agility or Armor Pen on them. Personally, at this point, im not a huge fan of passive haste.

Sore82, those are some pretty interesting findings, but I wonder if you clouded the data (I understand there's the disclaimer, not really accusing you of trying to shoot down Tiberium). From what I've gathered from these last few sets of posts with the 1:1.5 and the 2:1, we'd want to have both macros that you used to test. The 1:1.5 performs best in a hasteless environment (aside from tightening the rotation), whereas the 2:1 macro becomes better once you pass a certain haste threshold, and also scales with increasing haste. Ideally, (i.e., for maximum dps in a raid situation) you'd be mashing the first (1:1.5 macro) until you get enough haste effects (DST, heroism, cooldowns/consumables), at which point you'd want to switch to the 2:1 macro, which you then mash until your haste effects have expired and you've dropped back down to your hasteless state. Then begin using the 1:1.5 macro again until another haste effect appears?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be the optimal situation, since it doesn't seem to be too beneficial to stack enough passive haste to be above the 2:1 threshold at all times.

From my understanding, Tiberium was implying that a 2:1 rotation is ideal in a non-hasted situation (especially when you have 4piece T6). This is what I tested. My other test that I was talking about before this one, involved using the 2:1 macro WHILE hasted...which is what I normally do.

As of right now, my standard non-hasted rotation is the 1:1.5 I posted. When I become hasted above drums (heroism, rapid fire, haste pot) then I will use the 2 part 2:1 macro (which will turn into the 1:1 macro if hasted enough). The point of my test was to show that, at least for me, trying to do a 2:1 rotation while not hasted is not as beneficial than a 1:1.5.