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Old 03/23/08, 5:28 PM   #1376
SomeRandomIdiot
Von Kaiser
 
SomeRandomIdiot's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
Tiberium-
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it. I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes:
Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat

Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact.

Assuming no haste, with a 3.0 speed bow modified only with a 15% quiver (2.55 seconds per Auto Shot) and a .2s latency

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot Starts
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.4 Auto Shot Fires
3.6 Steady Shot Starts
5.1 Steady Shot Fires
5.3 Steady Shot Starts
6.8 Steady Shot Fires
6.8 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts

With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.8 seconds. Going off my damage from last week's raid (Wow Web Stats
Steady Shot Average = 999 Crit Average = 2318
Auto Shot Average = 897 Crit Average = 2140
Arcane Shot Average = 909 Crit Average = 2198
I had a 43% Crit rate, so ((999x.47)+(2318x.43)x4 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 = (469 + 997)x4 + (421 + 920)x2 = 8546 damage in 6.8 seconds = 1256 DPS

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot Starts
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts

With the 1:1.5 rotation, you just fired 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, and an Arcane Shot in 5.0 seconds.
((999x.47)+(2318x.43))x2 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 + ((909x.47)+(2198x.43))x1 =
(469 + 997)x2 + (421 + 920)x2 + (427 + 945) = 2932 + 2682 + 1372 = 6986 damage in 5.0 seconds = 1397 DPS

These numbers include the 4/5 T6 bonus, as well as take into account any vagaries that might be introduced by a small sample size, since 733 Auto Shots, 551 Steady Shots, and 288 Arcane Shots should average out pretty well.

1256 vs 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.

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Old 03/23/08, 7:36 PM   #1377
QuiggyB
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Drak'thul
For Wind Serpents to people typically train bite and lightning breath or just lb?

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Old 03/24/08, 12:11 AM   #1378
SomeRandomIdiot
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
I'm pretty sure they just train LB, since you'd rather maximize your GCDs to do the most damage, since you basically have unlimited focus by the time a wind serpent becomes useful.

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Old 03/24/08, 1:11 AM   #1379
Sore82
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by QuiggyB View Post
For Wind Serpents to people typically train bite and lightning breath or just lb?
Ive heard conflicting answers on this. Some use it, and some dont. From what I understand when looking at Damage per Focus, Bite is actually worthwhile. I know I use it, but I also know other who dont. Its on a 10sec cooldown, so its not like it gets spammed all the time.

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Old 03/24/08, 4:05 AM   #1380
 Intermission
Spiral out, keep going
 
Intermission's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Frostmourne
After speccing survival a few weeks ago, and having a consistent 250 latency, manual 1:1.5 has been my method of choice. I do make mistakes sometimes, but ultimately it's better than any /castsequence can ever do. However I would love to have a "/cast auto /cast steady" macro that I can fall back on. This macro requires no human imput and is cheaper on mana. Whether or not it does higher dps is currently under debate (although in my experience, manual 1:1.5 is better, yet more mana). This macro would be very useful while learning Sunwell encounters.

In theory, the "/cast /cast" macro is great. It will do [auto - steady - steady - auto - steady - steady] when not hasted. Decent dps, great mana efficiency compared to multi and arcane. It will then accommodate extra haste by becoming the BM-style "3steadies:2autos" rotation, and eventually simply perform a 1:1 rotation.

The last two pages of this thread has been discussing the benefits and drawbacks of these rotations and macros. Yet people are not mentioning the main problem with the "/cast /cast" macro:

auto - steady - steady - auto - steady - steady - ...until all of a sudden... - auto - steady - steady - STEADY - auto - ...back to normal... - auto - steady - steady - STEADY - STEADY - auto - ...back to normal....

The capitalized STEADY's should not occur, the autoshot should be firing at that time. The extra steadys sometimes chain upwards of 5 times in a row. The effect on dps is high, as well as mana/damage. And this isnt even when using LightningBreath/KillCommand. I'm under the impression it is worse when using these.

Yes, I know this is a well known problem. It has been mentioned numerous times in many threads. But what I dont see mentioned is exactly why this happens. More importantly, how can we stop it from happening? I would love to use this macro, even if simply to test it's damage against a manual 1:1.5, but this problem always persists.

I know varying haste amounts can reduce or stop this macro error. However, how does latency, weapon speed, ingame fps, etc, effect this? Does anyone know EXACTLY why, using that macro, an autoshot is skipped in the rotation? Is it because:

Do we know exactly how the new spell queues work? If your latency is 0.4 seconds and you press your steadyshot button when there is 0.35 seconds left on steadyshot, a new steadyshot will start to cast 0.05 seconds after the first one fires, right? Now where does the autoshot fit into this? What happens if the autoshot was due to fire inside that 0.05 second time period. Will it fire? What if it was due to fire before that time period, but it had not finished the "0.5 autoshot cast" yet. EG, it was due to fire within 0.05 and 0.55 seconds before the first steadyshot finished. Will it fire?

What is causing this?!

I am going insane.


All this talk of 1:1.5 vs /cast /cast is great and all, but whats the point if we cannot reliably produce /cast /cast ingame?

Last edited by Intermission : 03/24/08 at 9:36 AM.

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Old 03/24/08, 7:13 AM   #1381
Namarus
Piston Honda
 
Orc Hunter
 
<BUR>
Demon Soul
Well, I tried the two different rotation in two seperate weeks in Hyjal+BT.

I found that the 1:1.5 rotation was giving me a significant increase in dps. On the order of around 200+ extra dps. I do have the 4 piece T6 set, along with the DST and I chug haste pots. However, using the 1:1.5 macro as stated above while hasted seemed to put me into a 1:1 ratio which was a great benefit in my opinion.

I just can't see the 10% bonus to steady shot benefiting us as much as BM hunters when you are not hasted.

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Old 03/24/08, 7:45 AM   #1382
Tiberium
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Dragonblight (EU)
Oh Brother

Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
Tiberium-
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it.
Aha, I see. Well I've got news for you, nobody calls a Rotation that goes Auto -> Steady -> Steady 3:2 except you and Vasilii. You've even written yourself you have no idea why you call it a 3:2 Rotation here

Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
As for why we call it a 3:2 rotation, I have no clue...
and here

Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
Rotation Example #4: 3:2 (I'm still not sure why it's called 3:2... wouldn't that mean 3 Auto Shots to every 2 Specials?)
Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> Steady
Yes of course it would and that is exactly the point.

The 3:2 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady

Unhasted this is what BM hunters get when using

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

The 2:1 rotation is this Auto -> Steady -> Steady

Unhasted this is what Survival or Marksman hunters get when using

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes:
Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat
Wrong

It came about because unhasted BM hunters get a 3:2 rotation when using the /cast macro. Logically BM hunters call a 3:2 rotation, erm well a 3:2 rotation.

Unhasted Survival Hunters get a 2:1 rotation when using the /cast macro. Logically SV hunters call a 2:1 rotation, erm well a 2:1 rotation. Well apart from you and Vasilii who still want to call it 3:2.

By your logic we should all toddle off to the to the 128 page long BM thread and say. "Oi you're doing it all wrong! You should be calling your 3:2 Rotation 1:1 because this is what you get when your rotation is hasted???

Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact.
This is where the fun starts. Firstly after 2.3.2 everybody thought that using the /cast macro universally was the best thing since sliced bread, not just me. Users included CSM, Monco, Trohck and Kurkis (Still the highest DPS WWS poster on this thread) to name but a few. But I suppose they are all wrong as well. You of course disagreed with using 2:1 even back then. One thing that puzzles me no end, when you discussed Kurkis's DPS here http://elitistjerks.com/616892-post944.html you used to call the 2:1 rotation, well 2:1, seamed like a logical thing to do back then so why did you decide to change to our survival rotation to 3:2?

You may ask why I'm even bothered what the hell you call the Auto -> Steady -> Steady rotation. Well the answer is quite simple. People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1.

So lets look at your Incoorect DPS claims for your unhasted rotations and you will see where you are going wrong. CSM advised us of the following:-

Originally Posted by CSM-EH View Post
@Kurkis
As some others have stipulated on these forums, being able to get 2 specials (in this case 2 steady shots) off in a 1.5 second window (talent build permitting) seems like very odd behavior with regards to how the GCD used to work. If this mechanic is still in place in 2.4, then it will redefine how the hunter class as we know it is played,
When actually modelling the 3:2 BM rotation Cheeky has told us

Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
1 - 70 of the 96 test cases showed a difference under 0.5s. 26 showed over.
2 - Over all test cases there was an average of 0.44823s between Auto and the previous Steady.
3 - This works out to an 11.55% haste effect over the tooltip 0.5s cast time.

Using that data, and what we've seen regarding client-only GCD, I've modified the Shot Rotation matrix as follows:
1 - Latency is no longer added to Steady Shot cast time.
2 - If the shot previous to a GCD-using shot was an Auto Shot, I readjust the GCD start to be the greater of previous GCD or previous Auto Shot cast time + latency.
3 - Auto Shot's cast time is adjusted by the 11.55% haste factor I've found above.
So Now the 2:1 Rotation looks like this.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.0 Steady Shot Starts
1.5 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
3.0 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.0 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
4.5 Steady Shot Fires
4.5 Steady Shot Starts
6.0 Steady Shot Fires
6.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts

With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.0 seconds.

OH well look ye there then you actually did 8546 damage in 6.0 seconds meaning your DPS using 2:1 is 1424

Compare this with the latency susceptible /castsquence DPS of 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.

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Old 03/24/08, 11:00 AM   #1383
CSM-EH
Von Kaiser
 
CSM-EH's Avatar
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Destromath
@Intermission

The whole /cast craze came about when they made an undocumented change to autoshot in a previous patch. Because Blizzard has been completely mum on the matter, no one knows for sure why the /cast macro works the way it does.

GO HABS GO!!

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Old 03/24/08, 11:32 AM   #1384
Sore82
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Sen'jin
@Tiberium

Ive tried the 2:1 rotation, and as you can see, the results did not favor it at all. So let me ask you some questions to figure out what I did wrong.

1) How do you compensate for the macro getting "stuck" shooting Auto Shot? Where it fire 1-5 EXTRA Steady Shots BEFORE getting off the Auto Shot. This problem only occurs while NOT Hasted. When I use Rapid Fire ora Haste Pot, this is not an issue (which is why BM Hunters do not have as much of an issue with it).

2) Having a Wind Serpent's LB attack or Kill Command in the 2:1 code seems to make Auto Shot getting stuck even worse. Have you experienced this and is it worth it NOT to use either of those abilities?

3) I have actuaily talked with Kurkis. And he stated something very different to me than what you are saying. Here is a snipit of what he said:
On Kaz'Rogal last week I did like 2288 DPS or something. I basically run with Haste Pot, Rapid Fire, Rapid Fire, Heroism which is a large portion of the fight where I am capable of doing a 1:1 rotation. A chunk of time will go by where I am doing a 1.5:1 rotation until potion cool downs are back and then by then the fight is usually over.
So im a little confused, I see you saying one thing, and then another person, who you use as a reference, say another.

Last edited by Sore82 : 03/24/08 at 11:43 AM.

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Old 03/24/08, 11:53 AM   #1385
SomeRandomIdiot
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
Tiberius, I'm not sure if you think we're all out to get you... that'd sure be fun, a bunch of hunters who don't care that they're not doing optimal DPS, they just want people on a message board (who they've never even talked to in game, much less in real life) to think they're cool? There is no doubt that when hasted, the 2:1 rotation is superior to a 1:1.5 rotation. I think everyone here can agree with that.

From the post of mine you quoted:

"Without those haste effects, I feel it is pretty obvious that a 1:1.5 rotation is going to be higher dps than a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation. (feel free to comment on this, as it's one of the cornerstones of my argument) This means that as time goes to infinity in a fight, the 1:1.5 hunter will eventually pass the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter, even if the 1:1 (or 2:1) hunter gains a temporary lead at the beginning. The 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation is dependant on those haste effects, without them it is inferior. This leads me to believe that the best strategy for dps is to use a 1:1 (or 2:1) rotation while you are hasted (and push that haste as long as possible) and then at the point the haste wears off, switch to a 1:1.5 rotation."

Regarding the shot rotation you posted, you can't just completely ignore the effects of latency. It still takes .2s (or whatever your latency is) for your command to get to the server when you send it- this is a physical fact, not something a fancy keyboard or a macro can fix. All the /cast is letting you do is ignore the .2s on the way back telling you your shot finished. In fact, the numbers I did took this into account.

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Old 03/24/08, 11:57 AM   #1386
volant
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Demon Soul
Tiberium, the misinformation you are spreading around this thread is painful. People call it a 3:2 rotation because you should only start using the macro when it will produce a 3:2 or 1:1 sequence. A 2:1 sequence, as has been shown in the test data of several posters, does terrible dps.

Originally Posted by Tiberium View Post
So Now the 2:1 Rotation looks like this.

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.0 Steady Shot Starts
1.5 Steady Shot Fires
1.5 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
3.0 Steady Shot Fires
3.0 Auto Shot Fires
3.0 Steady Shot Starts. Using mouse wheel or G15 input
4.5 Steady Shot Fires
4.5 Steady Shot Starts
6.0 Steady Shot Fires
6.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts
This sequence shows a huge misconception of basic hunter mechanics. You are not including the autoshot cast time. Nor are you acknowledging the effects of haste on steady shot. Here is a realistic representation of using a 2:1 rot, which was in my last post that you ignored:

Originally Posted by volant View Post
Let's try including a little math in this comparison. You said under ideal circumstances, a 1.5:1 rot produces 1 shot per second. How does the 2:1 match up? Steady #1 requires 1.5 seconds because you have to wait for the GCD. Steady #2 requires 1.3 seconds because you don't. And autoshot requires the .45 determined by Cheeky. That adds up to 3 shots per 3.25 seconds, or about 9% fewer shots than a 1:1.5. The only way a 2:1 rotation will perform better is if it's compensating for a deficiency caused by lag and/or player reaction times.
Perhaps a pretty little chart like you used will help:

0.0 Auto Fires
0.0 Steady #1 starts
1.3 Steady #1 fires
1.5 Steady #2 starts
2.8 Steady #2 fires
2.8 Auto starts
3.25 Auto fires

And that is before you even begin to factor in latency. Everyone else that has compared the rotations has said 2:1 does lower dps. Don't waste our time claiming otherwise again unless you can back it up with some numbers.

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Old 03/24/08, 1:23 PM   #1387
Cheeky
Great Tiger
 
Cheeky
Troll Hunter
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Tiberium View Post
People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1.
Just a clarification: I do not model macros, I model rotations in the spreadsheet. I actually tried to put in logic to mimic the actual macro at first, but it was a disaster. We really don't have a good understanding of how the macro works yet. I don't want anyone under the impression those buttons model macros.

No back to your regularly scheduled Survival discussion.


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Old 03/24/08, 7:46 PM   #1388
 Intermission
Spiral out, keep going
 
Intermission's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by CSM-EH View Post
@Intermission

The whole /cast craze came about when they made an undocumented change to autoshot in a previous patch. Because Blizzard has been completely mum on the matter, no one knows for sure why the /cast macro works the way it does.
I understand how the macro came about, and the changes to autoshot in 2.3.2. But seeing as tho it is the macro of choice for many BM hunters, and has possible uses for Survival/Marks, you would think more people would worry about seeing it actually work, rather than discussing its theoretic worth compared to 1:1.5.

WotLK should be out within the year, hopefully Blizzard might explain a few things:

How it currently works
How they want it to work
What the new broken WotLK rotation will be
What the newer, slightly less broken WotLK 3.1 rotation will be

Please forgive me for being cynical, playing a hunter for 3 years will do that to you.

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Old 03/24/08, 9:34 PM   #1389
ugla
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Intermission View Post
What the new broken WotLK rotation will be
What the newer, slightly less broken WotLK 3.1 rotation will be

Please forgive me for being cynical, playing a hunter for 3 years will do that to you.
Amen. I didn't think they could create shot mechanics that would be more annoying to use than aimed shot rotations in vanilla, and steady shot comes about. And little things keep constantly changing that end up having drastic effects on hunter DPS output.

Do the developers want timing to be as all-important for hunters as it currently is?




Also to people talking about cheeky's modelling, manually input the rotation that your macro produces in the appropriate tab and the spreadsheet will use it. It takes 5 minutes... and is a lot easier than making poor cheeky model blizzard's macro system.

Last edited by ugla : 03/24/08 at 9:44 PM.

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Old 03/25/08, 4:43 AM   #1390
Lockain
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
Tiberium-
First off, regarding the name "3:2" for that shot rotation, I call it 3:2 because that's what everyone else calls it. I'm pretty sure the name came about because at 20% haste (BM hunter) the rotation created by the macro goes:
Auto Steady Steady Auto Steady Repeat

Secondly: the Auto Steady Steady rotation is NOT a superior rotation to a 1:1.5 rotation in an unhasted situation. You seem to think that a 10% bonus from T6 is enough to put it over, when in fact the difference is considerable even with the bonus. Until this point, I didn't think anyone disagreed with that fact, but apparently you do... Evildeathcrab (I love the name btw) sums it up perfectly, and that's exactly what I stated in my marathon of a post on the previous page. All of the CAPITALIZATION and bolding and exclaimation points in the world won't change that fact.

Assuming no haste, with a 3.0 speed bow modified only with a 15% quiver (2.55 seconds per Auto Shot) and a .2s latency

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Steady Shot Starts
3.4 Steady Shot Fires
3.4 Auto Shot Fires
3.6 Steady Shot Starts
5.1 Steady Shot Fires
5.3 Steady Shot Starts
6.8 Steady Shot Fires
6.8 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts

With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.8 seconds. Going off my damage from last week's raid (Wow Web Stats
Steady Shot Average = 999 Crit Average = 2318
Auto Shot Average = 897 Crit Average = 2140
Arcane Shot Average = 909 Crit Average = 2198
I had a 43% Crit rate, so ((999x.47)+(2318x.43)x4 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 = (469 + 997)x4 + (421 + 920)x2 = 8546 damage in 6.8 seconds = 1256 DPS

0.0 Auto Shot Fires
0.2 Steady Shot Starts
1.7 Steady Shot Fires
1.9 Arcane Shot Fires
2.5 Auto Shot Fires
2.7 Steady Shot Starts
4.2 Steady Shot Fires
5.0 Auto Shot Fires and Sequence Restarts

With the 1:1.5 rotation, you just fired 2 Steady Shots, 2 Auto Shots, and an Arcane Shot in 5.0 seconds.
((999x.47)+(2318x.43))x2 + ((897x.47)+(2140x.43))x2 + ((909x.47)+(2198x.43))x1 =
(469 + 997)x2 + (421 + 920)x2 + (427 + 945) = 2932 + 2682 + 1372 = 6986 damage in 5.0 seconds = 1397 DPS

These numbers include the 4/5 T6 bonus, as well as take into account any vagaries that might be introduced by a small sample size, since 733 Auto Shots, 551 Steady Shots, and 288 Arcane Shots should average out pretty well.

1256 vs 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.
Wouldn't it be easier to judge the dps difference by comparing boss kills while using 2:1 to boss kills while using 1:1.5? Not that I actually care about that, what I am interested in though is your spec.

You're specc'd 0/20/41 and you do a 1:1.5, which I hopefully understand is: auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, (KC), auto, steady, multi, auto. Don't know if this applies to you, but assuming the only means of haste you receive is your own rapid fire and a possible haste pot; would it be more effective to have readiness for an extra Rapid Fire or to spec for barrage with some points in ranged weapon specialization?

For an illustration as to how far my guild's progressed: We downed Azgalor for our 2nd time last week and we have yet to kill Teron. I'm usually put in a group with a feral druid and nothing else of beneficial value, meanwhile my only means of haste is a Rapid Fire, which leads me back to the question of your talents or rather what I should spec. I've been 0/20/41 and I really enjoyed readiness for the extra Rapid Fire, but after thinking about it... Most of my boss fights range from 4-6 minutes and I thought that 12% more multi shot damage along with 4% more ranged weapon damage (did 2/3 for expose weakness, probably gonna have to do 3/3 though) would be more useful. I also looked into a spec of 7/22/32 (which would actually be the 7/20/34 everybody's talking about) and felt that the 15% haste bonus from IAoTH wasn't fast enough to give me a useful 1:1, but it wasn't slow enough so that I could maintain a 1:1.5.

DPS is fine, I guess, but I'm more interested in what would achieve the most damage done. Off the top of my head there's been a fight where I'd have 1.2k dps whereas someone else is around 1.4k dps, but I still pulled 40k more damage. So... dancing around aside, with boss fights taking between 4-6 minutes and your only means of haste being a haste pot and rapid fire, would a 7/20/34, 0/20/41, or 0/28/33 be more useful (specc'd with barrage instead of imp arcane shot)? I tried to get a hold of you in game, but it being so late you were probably sleeping.

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Old 03/25/08, 7:33 AM   #1391
Jobby
Glass Joe
 
Jobby's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Sore82, I saw a couple of problems with the testing you did of 1:1.5 v 2:1.

First, your test does not take into account the armor pen factor that you will normally benefit from while raiding. Granted, as a level 70 hitting a level 60, this does come into effect less, but it is still an issue between arcane shot/steady shot testing.
Second, your shot clipping. I would take the KC out of the macro, as I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong, don't really want to search 50+ pages for it) it has been posted in the thread that KC actually drops DPS or is terribly mana inefficient. I haven't tried the macro with lightning breath as I don't have a WS, but I have used it in a raid environment and I clip autoshots very rarely. Using Quartz, I stop spamming the macro after the second steady has started to cast and wait for a brief moment after the steady bar has finish filling before I start spamming again, just as you would with a 1:1.5 macro. If you can watch for autos with a 1:1.5, I don't see how it isn't practical to be able to wait for the same thing with the 2:1 macro.
Third, your spec/gear. Were you 25/36 for both tests :? A 2:1 spec doesn't require the points in IAS and barrage in marks that a 1:1.5 benefits from, and with those points you could spec 20/41 into Master Tactician, benefiting from some extra crit in your tests. Also, I'm not sure what trinkets you normally use (Armory down for maintenence), but using an Ashtongue Talisman could make a significant difference in the numbers you're seeing.
Fourth, while it's nice to run full mana bar tests, we have to consider the mana usage of both rotations in a raid environment. Maybe one is better for those who have constant access to a spriest while the other is more mana efficient at the cost of a slight amount of DPS. Also, how do overall crit rates compare with IAS or barrage versus master tactician :? Crits are one of the mainstays of the survival hunter, giving us mana, EW procs, and more damage.

I appreciate the amount of time you put into these tests, but if you really want to be accurate, there's a couple of things you might consider.
*Working on your use of the 2:1 macro to where you are able to control clipping to a reasonable degree. Nobody can do it 100% perfect, but there's always room to improve.
*Respeccing/trinketing to gain full appreciation of each rotation's idiosyncrasies. As a side note, what trinkets are best for a 2:1 :?
*Noting how long a full mana bar test lasted with each rotation. What aspect were you using :? What crit rates were you seeing overall :?

Other notes on 2:1 rotation theorycrafting:
Everyone seems to have different opinions on just what a 2:1 rotation would actually look like with shot times. What does it REALLY look like :? Given accurate models of a 2:1 and a 1:1.5, what is the average shots per second :? Working from the viewpoint of different specs and how they affect crit chances, and given accurate shots per second, what sorts of differences do we notice in overall crit rate and specific shot crit rate :? Which one will give us more EW procs and how do the shots and their relative crit rates change the benefit we see from ToTH :? Where exactly is the haste threshold that would bump us into a 3:2 from a 2:1 :? As above, what trinkets will benefit us the most in a 2:1 or 3:2 :? Along with that, if we did switch it back and forth from a hasted 3:2 or 1:1 to an unhasted 1:1.5, what trinkets will give us the most bang for our buck overall :? How much of a difference does T6 and armor pen make in our consideration of 2:1 v 1:1.5 :? Are there base weapon damage/ap numbers that have a clear line of when one rotation is better :?

Last edited by Jobby : 03/25/08 at 8:20 AM.

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Old 03/25/08, 11:49 AM   #1392
SomeRandomIdiot
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Lockain View Post
Wouldn't it be easier to judge the dps difference by comparing boss kills while using 2:1 to boss kills while using 1:1.5? Not that I actually care about that, what I am interested in though is your spec.

You're specc'd 0/20/41 and you do a 1:1.5, which I hopefully understand is: auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, (KC), auto, steady, multi, auto. Don't know if this applies to you, but assuming the only means of haste you receive is your own rapid fire and a possible haste pot; would it be more effective to have readiness for an extra Rapid Fire or to spec for barrage with some points in ranged weapon specialization?

For an illustration as to how far my guild's progressed: We downed Azgalor for our 2nd time last week and we have yet to kill Teron. I'm usually put in a group with a feral druid and nothing else of beneficial value, meanwhile my only means of haste is a Rapid Fire, which leads me back to the question of your talents or rather what I should spec. I've been 0/20/41 and I really enjoyed readiness for the extra Rapid Fire, but after thinking about it... Most of my boss fights range from 4-6 minutes and I thought that 12% more multi shot damage along with 4% more ranged weapon damage (did 2/3 for expose weakness, probably gonna have to do 3/3 though) would be more useful. I also looked into a spec of 7/22/32 (which would actually be the 7/20/34 everybody's talking about) and felt that the 15% haste bonus from IAoTH wasn't fast enough to give me a useful 1:1, but it wasn't slow enough so that I could maintain a 1:1.5.

DPS is fine, I guess, but I'm more interested in what would achieve the most damage done. Off the top of my head there's been a fight where I'd have 1.2k dps whereas someone else is around 1.4k dps, but I still pulled 40k more damage. So... dancing around aside, with boss fights taking between 4-6 minutes and your only means of haste being a haste pot and rapid fire, would a 7/20/34, 0/20/41, or 0/28/33 be more useful (specc'd with barrage instead of imp arcane shot)? I tried to get a hold of you in game, but it being so late you were probably sleeping.
You've got a very solid point. My normal spec is actually 0/28/33, I'm only testing 0/20/41 at the moment based on the recommendations of others. I actually (and still) prefer an Imp Arcane Shot rotation of Auto Steady Arcane Auto Steady, for several reasons I've stated many times. Regarding spec, you definitely need 3/3 Expose Weakness, you lose about 10% uptime on it even at 50% crit. Imp Aspect of the Hawk is also an intruiging spec, but I don't think that it is better than a simple 3% damage increase, whether through Master Tactician or Ranged Weapon Specialization.

Also, your thinking about DPS is misleading. I assume you're using WWS to get these numbers- the real way to find your DPS is to take total damage done / length of the fight. WWS gives an instant DPS, which while pretty close isn't always accurate. If you're running around, so is everyone else though, so your numbers are still likely to be the same relative to each other.

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Old 03/25/08, 11:54 AM   #1393
SomeRandomIdiot
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Jobby View Post

Other notes on 2:1 rotation theorycrafting:
Everyone seems to have different opinions on just what a 2:1 rotation would actually look like with shot times. What does it REALLY look like :? Given accurate models of a 2:1 and a 1:1.5, what is the average shots per second :? Working from the viewpoint of different specs and how they affect crit chances, and given accurate shots per second, what sorts of differences do we notice in overall crit rate and specific shot crit rate :? Which one will give us more EW procs and how do the shots and their relative crit rates change the benefit we see from ToTH :? Where exactly is the haste threshold that would bump us into a 3:2 from a 2:1 :? As above, what trinkets will benefit us the most in a 2:1 or 3:2 :? Along with that, if we did switch it back and forth from a hasted 3:2 or 1:1 to an unhasted 1:1.5, what trinkets will give us the most bang for our buck overall :? How much of a difference does T6 and armor pen make in our consideration of 2:1 v 1:1.5 :? Are there base weapon damage/ap numbers that have a clear line of when one rotation is better :?
Shot rotations don't vary in effectiveness according to your stats, aside from some potential confusion with arcane shot and armor penetration. They do, however, vary in effectiveness compared to your haste. The correct action is to switch between 1:1.5 and 3:2 rotations depending on haste effects- any "non-trivial" haste (e.g. anything beyond a piece or two of haste gear, and drums) should cause you to swap to a 3:2 rotation.

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Old 03/25/08, 3:06 PM   #1394
Aern
Banned
 
Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Well I've been reading this thread for a while now and I'm seeing quite a bit of disagreements going on over what exactly is the best for this or that and then something else gets brought up and the original subject never gets brought to a conclusion. So I'm gonna try and sum up some of the questions that I think a new reader or person who has recently switched to survival (like myself) may have and be looking for some, hopefully, concrete answers.

Recently there was some speculation as to what bow in 2.4 excluding Thoridal will yield the best dps for a survival hunter. Basically, is one of the 3.0 bows really being out performed by the 2.8 speed badge bow?

If we are using 3.0 or 2.8 with small amounts of haste (0-5%) after the 15% from quiver is factored in, what is the best rotation to use? I.E. the 1:1.5 or the 3:2/1:1

Is using kill command worth it in any rotation? If so what rotations does it actually increase dmg?

Is using bite worth the extra focus loss or should our WS's just be spamming LB?

I'm sure theres some more but these are the ones that seem to have quite a few different opinions or almost no data/responses at all on the matter.

Last edited by Aern : 03/25/08 at 3:13 PM.

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Old 03/25/08, 3:48 PM   #1395
Sinnar
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Quel'dorei
Originally Posted by Leighlu View Post
Reading SomeRandom's post, I had a thought as well:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot

Pros: No use of /castsequence means it is not vulnerable to the effects of latency.
Pros: Automatic firing of shots means it is not vulnerable to human inefficiencies.

I'm sure there's some limitation that prevents it, because it's so logical and obvious. But I'll try that tonight perhaps, if no badge farming opportunities come up. ;P

@ SomeRandom

Excellent, excellent post..Bravo!
Before I begin, I just want to say that this is my first time posting on this site. I've been following this and other threads here for quite some time now and have found the information and debate to be VERY useful.

With that said, I was wondering if anyone has had a chance to test out the above macro? I've been using that macro for quite some time now, and although I'm working on getting WWS setup tonight so I can provide some numbers for the community, my damage meter indicates an increase in DPS from the /castsequence macro I was using previously.

I'm assuming for those with the 4-piece T6 bonus that it wouldn't be worth the extra mana to use Arcane Shot considering you get an extra 10% damage on your steady shots (please correct me if I am wrong though). However, what about for those without the bonus (ugh... my guild is only at Kara atm)?

I know that the /cast macros are very desirable to those with the T6 bonus since, with it, you cast more steady shots per auto. However, I have an issue with latency and I've read that /castsequence macros have reduced performance under high latency values.

So basically, I'm asking if I'm possibly gimping myself in DPS with that macro? Are there any downsides to it that I might be missing? And finally, any advice on my gear (getting some 2.4 badge rewards tonight) or talents (guild still relies on me a lot for CC) that would help me increase my DPS?

Thank you in advance for your help.

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Old 03/25/08, 3:53 PM   #1396
Vasilii
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Smolderthorn
Originally Posted by Tiberium View Post
Aha, I see. Well I've got news for you, nobody calls a Rotation that goes Auto -> Steady -> Steady 3:2 except you and Vasilii. You've even written yourself you have no idea why you call it a 3:2 Rotation here

This is where the fun starts. Firstly after 2.3.2 everybody thought that using the /cast macro universally was the best thing since sliced bread, not just me. Users included CSM, Monco, Trohck and Kurkis (Still the highest DPS WWS poster on this thread) to name but a few. But I suppose they are all wrong as well. You of course disagreed with using 2:1 even back then. One thing that puzzles me no end, when you discussed Kurkis's DPS here http://elitistjerks.com/616892-post944.html you used to call the 2:1 rotation, well 2:1, seamed like a logical thing to do back then so why did you decide to change to our survival rotation to 3:2?

You may ask why I'm even bothered what the hell you call the Auto -> Steady -> Steady rotation. Well the answer is quite simple. People coming to this thread will see your reference to the 3:2 rotation and toddle off to Cheeky's to check out their DPS. Low and behold there is a 3:2 spam macro button modelled by Cheeky. BUT that gives us the BM rotation of exactly what it says on the tin, Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady 3:2 and not 2:1.

So lets look at your Incoorect DPS claims for your unhasted rotations and you will see where you are going wrong. CSM advised us of the following:-

When actually modelling the 3:2 BM rotation Cheeky has told us

With the 2:1 rotation, you just fired 4 Steady Shots and 2 Auto Shots in 6.0 seconds.

OH well look ye there then you actually did 8546 damage in 6.0 seconds meaning your DPS using 2:1 is 1424

Compare this with the latency susceptible /castsquence DPS of 1397... that's a pretty solid difference to me.
Tiberium,

LOL I'm an idiot, thank you enlightening me about the 2:1 rotation, apologizes for my misunderstanding. However I still disagree with you about the gear recommendations that you made :P

I have done some modeling in Cheeky's with some interesting results:

0/20/41 Spec (3/3 EW, 2/3 ToTH) (All standard raid buffs, agility elixir)
End game gear set I posted a few pages back
No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5 or 2:1)

2:1 Rotation Manually Modeled
DPS: 2210.04
Time to OOM: 200.42
Cycle Time: 3.16
Total Damage = 106,245.03
Total Time = 53.65 seconds

1:1.5 Rotation Manually Modeled
DPS: 2182.43
Time to OOM: 130.82
Cycle time: 2.60
Total Damage = 101,444.23
Total Time = 52.00 seconds
Total Damage (adjusted for time difference) = 105,045.24


Comments:

- Damage is almost identical
- The rotations are both manually hand woven. Using a castsequence for either will drop the DPS dramatically, especially the 2:1 rotation.
- 2:1 will only out dps 1:1.5 with the legendary bow
- 2:1 may still not be realistic, at this time there is no easy way to macro it and handweave is likely (???) more difficult than 1:1.5.
- If we can find a good macro for 2:1, then it may be an ideal end-game rotation with the legendary because it provides a significant time to OOM advantage.
- Using the ashtounge talisman of swiftness (strangely) did not provide any dps benefit over berserkers call or madness of the betrayer with 2:1.
- I did not investigate the use of haste gear with a 2:1 rotation.

Spec (completed unrelated to above)
Lots of questions about talent specs recently. I have changed my opinion from "0/20/41 is always best" after reading a SV guide posted by Alu (a guy who used to post here and operates his own website) His conclusion:

Because most fights (80%+) require movement, target switching, stops in dps, etc.... that the value of MT is diminished. If you cannot stand still and dps and do a perfect rotation, you will not be taking advantage of all your MT procs. I'm starting to come around on this line of thinking, while I agree that an MT spec will out dps any other on a static fight, on movement fights I think a hybrid with barrage is superior. I'm enjoying a hybrid, 25/37ish spec.

Here's the link to the guide its a good read from a very knowledgeable hunter: Alu's SV Guide

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Old 03/25/08, 4:45 PM   #1397
Jobby
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot View Post
Shot rotations don't vary in effectiveness according to your stats, aside from some potential confusion with arcane shot and armor penetration. They do, however, vary in effectiveness compared to your haste. The correct action is to switch between 1:1.5 and 3:2 rotations depending on haste effects- any "non-trivial" haste (e.g. anything beyond a piece or two of haste gear, and drums) should cause you to swap to a 3:2 rotation.
Well, since arcane shot and steady shot use different AP multipliers and different bases, as well as steady shot damage varying based on weapon damage, there must be some point at where stats should influence which shot you use. The higher your AP goes and the higher your base weapon damage goes, the more effective a 2:1 rotation will be compared to a 1:1.5 rotation. I would crunch some theoretical numbers, but the formulas I see on WoWHead for arcane shot and steady shot seem to create far smaller damage numbers than what I normally see with these shots, so if anyone could tell me what they think I'm missing or an accurate way to model arcane shot/steady shot damage, that would be super.

Last edited by Jobby : 03/25/08 at 5:02 PM.

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Old 03/25/08, 4:58 PM   #1398
Jobby
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Vasilii View Post
Tiberium,

LOL I'm an idiot, thank you enlightening me about the 2:1 rotation, apologizes for my misunderstanding. However I still disagree with you about the gear recommendations that you made :P

I have done some modeling in Cheeky's with some interesting results:

0/20/41 Spec (3/3 EW, 2/3 ToTH) (All standard raid buffs, agility elixir)
End game gear set I posted a few pages back
No KC (unrealistic to use in 1:1.5 or 2:1)

2:1 Rotation Manually Modeled
DPS: 2210.04
Time to OOM: 200.42
Cycle Time: 3.16
Total Damage = 106,245.03
Total Time = 53.65 seconds

1:1.5 Rotation Manually Modeled
DPS: 2182.43
Time to OOM: 130.82
Cycle time: 2.60
Total Damage = 101,444.23
Total Time = 52.00 seconds
Total Damage (adjusted for time difference) = 105,045.24
Did you use Tiberium's model for the 2:1 :? I think volant's model looks most like what an actual 2:1 would look like, taking into account quiver haste on the second steady and auto shot cast time.

Originally Posted by Vasilii View Post
- Damage is almost identical
- 2:1 will only out dps 1:1.5 with the legendary bow
- If we can find a good macro for 2:1, then it may be an ideal end-game rotation with the legendary because it provides a significant time to OOM advantage.
Don't these numbers show that 2:1 is a better rotation than 1:1.5 once mana concerns are taken into account :? Or is this only reflecting the balance between the two rotations once you have Sunwell gear :? If so, how do they compare with current gear :?

Originally Posted by Vasilii View Post
- Using the ashtounge talisman of swiftness (strangely) did not provide any dps benefit over berserkers call or madness of the betrayer with 2:1.
So did Ashtongue Talisman reflect the same kind of damage as Zerk/MotB, making it superior to other trinkets :? With my guild's terrible loots (0 Bow-Stitched, 1 MotB), I know that if Ashtongue reflects a higher DPS than other trinkets (Tsunami, DST, w/e), I will be most happy indeed since then I can use Ashtongue/Zerk and feel special :>

Last edited by Jobby : 03/25/08 at 5:04 PM.

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Old 03/25/08, 5:35 PM   #1399
Kierran
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Elune
The notion that Cheeky's spreadsheet models rotations rather than macros encouraged me to go back and simulate the exact shot sequences that we're talking about here. I manually input a 2:1 rotation (Auto-Steady-Steady, repeat) and compared that to the 1.5:1 rotation (Auto-Steady-Multi-Auto-Steady-Auto-Steady-Arcane-Auto-Steady, repeat) and the 3:2 rotation (Auto-Steady-Steady-Auto-Steady, repeat). With a 0/20/41 build, late-T5 gear (1k buffed agility), and the S3 bow, my results were:

* 2:1 - 1566 DPS
* 1.5:1 - 1640 DPS
* 3:2 - 1489 DPS

Under hasted conditions (Rapid Fire), I compared 3:2 and 1:1 priority rotations:

* 1:1 - 1869 DPS
* 3:2 - 1780 DPS

This is theoretical of course, and I fully plan on doing some in-game testing once I get off work, but at least according to Cheeky, the /cast macro and its resulting 2:1 and 3:2 rotations don't offer anything for my current spec and gear. I'll be curious to see if the in-game results match this prediction.

I think those who are advocating individualized simulation and experimentation are right on the mark. I don't believe there's a blanket answer to the "What macro should I use?" question since it's dependent on so many individual factors.

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Old 03/25/08, 6:25 PM   #1400
Whitefyst
King Hippo
 
Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Lockain View Post
You're specc'd 0/20/41 and you do a 1:1.5, which I hopefully understand is: auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, (KC), auto, steady, multi, auto. Don't know if this applies to you, but assuming the only means of haste you receive is your own rapid fire and a possible haste pot; would it be more effective to have readiness for an extra Rapid Fire or to spec for barrage with some points in ranged weapon specialization?

For an illustration as to how far my guild's progressed: We downed Azgalor for our 2nd time last week and we have yet to kill Teron. I'm usually put in a group with a feral druid and nothing else of beneficial value, meanwhile my only means of haste is a Rapid Fire, which leads me back to the question of your talents or rather what I should spec. I've been 0/20/41 and I really enjoyed readiness for the extra Rapid Fire, but after thinking about it... Most of my boss fights range from 4-6 minutes and I thought that 12% more multi shot damage along with 4% more ranged weapon damage (did 2/3 for expose weakness, probably gonna have to do 3/3 though) would be more useful. I also looked into a spec of 7/22/32 (which would actually be the 7/20/34 everybody's talking about) and felt that the 15% haste bonus from IAoTH wasn't fast enough to give me a useful 1:1, but it wasn't slow enough so that I could maintain a 1:1.5.
I realize your question was for SomeRandom, but being someone who is at similar guild progression as you and has tried out many specs in both theory and practice, I thought I would provide my inputs as well.

I am an advocate of the 0/20/41 spec, because of the synergy of the extra crit with my talents that proc off crit, such as EW, TotH, crit trinket, etc. and because of the utility of Readiness. I also realize that other specs are viable too and some work better with different playing styles. The differences between many of the specs is trading off one attribute for another with the tradeoff priorities being different for different folks.

As an illustration, comparing your current spec and the 0/20/41 on my character (results can vary between characters with race, gear, buffs, rotations, etc.), I get the following for 0/20/41 assuming level 73 target with no debuffs besides those I do:

DPS: 1348.50
Time to OOM: 131.96s
EW Uptime: 99.26%
Average EW AP: 295.07
Raid DPS*: 1938.64

With your spec:

DPS: 1356.32 (+7.82)
Time to OOM: 125.69s (-6.27)
EW Uptime: 92.26% (-7.00%)
Average EW AP: 274.27 (-20.8)
Raid DPS*: 1904.86 (-33.78)

* Raid DPS assumes 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other physical DPS in the raid.

As can be seen, the 0/20/41 spec does a little less personal DPS than your spec but has better mana management and better overall raid DPS. I personally prefer to attempt to maximize my raid DPS contribution, that is why I picked 0/20/41.

However, this is not the full story. The benefits of Readiness is not modeled in Cheeky's since its use is not consistent. But I think it is safe to say that assuming that you are able to use it for at least one extra RF (or maybe 2) per boss fight, that your personal DPS as well as your raid contribution will be even higher and above that of your current spec. Also, consider the benefits of being able to perform extra MDs while pulling trash and having the possibility of an extra FD if needed to help survive or manage threat. Thus, I prefer the 0/20/41 spec.

This is not to say that you should change your spec to 0/20/41. That is up to you. However, if you like a Barrage build, I would like to suggest a few changes that is a mix between your current build and 0/20/41. It's a 0/23/38 build that makes the following changes from your build:
1) Adds a rank to EW (from RWS) as SomeRandom also suggested. Sure that 3rd rank only adds about 7% uptime and 20.8 AP per above, but those numbers are for the ideal rotation, which is rarely, if ever, feasible. During most fights, you often have to move, switch targets, FD, refresh HM, MD, get stunned or interrupted, etc. that prevents you implementing your ideal rotation. In those situations, the different between 2 and 3 ranks in EW is much larger. Personally, I think ~21 AP per physical raid DPS in the raid is a talent point well spent, but it is even better spent considering that the amount is larger during non-ideal situations. Losing 1% damage (about 13.6 DPS) is worth gaining at least 20.8 AP on EW proc, which is about 8-10 personal DPS for you and your pet and at least another 42 DPS for the raid.
2) Adds 2 ranks to TotH (from RWS). Since you mentioned that you only get a druid buff, I assume you do not get any mana regen abilities besides BoW. If so, TotH is a great ability and is better than Efficiency. 5/5 in Efficiency only conserves 10% of your mana on shots (and stings, which you should only be using situationally). Each rank in TotH, conserves 5.3% mana assuming 40% buffed crit rate and provides even more returns at higher crit rates (it is about 6.8% at my about 52% raid buff crit). Thus, just 2 ranks in TotH is better than 5 ranks in Efficiency. I realize that you are giving up 2 ranks in RSW (and 2% damage) for more mana at this point, but it works out better with the other changes.
3) Put 3 ranks in MT (last RWS rank and 2 from 2nd level MM). The 3 ranks in MT provides for my situation about 2.24% average crit, which is benefitial for improving your straigh out DPS, but also in proccing EW, TotH, crit trinket, etc. In the second level of MM tree, decide whether you need the mana or whether you need to provide the IHM. Ideally, BMs should have IHM since they have less mana concerns than other hunters (I have it though since I am the most consistent raiding hunter in the guld) allowing you to get Efficiency. However, if you need IHM and am concerned about mana, you can always move a point from MT into TotH.

With these changes, the results are, with comparing to your current spec:

DPS: 1344.12 (-12.2)
Time to OOM: 131.34s (+5.65s)
EW Uptime: 99.09% (+6.83)
Average EW AP: 294.57 (+20.3)
Raid DPS*: 1933.26 (+28.4)

As can be seen, although it has a loss in personal DPS, it is an improvement on your spec in every other category. However, I would no suggest this spec, since it is in every stat worse than the 0/20/41, and that is without factoring in the benefits of Readiness. This change was done mostly to illustrate the benefits of the 3rd rank in EW and ranks in TotH over Efficiency.

Concerning IAtH/FF builds, as someone who has tried out a 7/XX/XX spec, I would suggest other options instead since unpredictable haste can cause difficulties unless you are good at recognizing it and responding to it appropriately (i.e., changing rotations). I personally have a difficult time seeing when it or DST procs and I need to change rotations. But from previous theoretical analysis I performed, I found that even if I executed the change ideally, that several other survival specs functioned better. It may be a better option in end game gear where the 2:1 and 3:2 rotations can be more effective and which can automatically scale for you under haste effects, either planned or procced, if using the proper macro.

Anyway, that's my input. I do not suggest you taking any of my information as is since our characters and situations are different. Please try things out both theoretically and in application yourself to see what works best for you and your character.

Originally Posted by Kierran View Post
With a 0/20/41 build, late-T5 gear (1k buffed agility) ...
, but at least according to Cheeky, the /cast macro and its resulting 2:1 and 3:2 rotations don't offer anything for my current spec and gear. I'll be curious to see if the in-game results match this prediction.

I think those who are advocating individualized simulation and experimentation are right on the mark. I don't believe there's a blanket answer to the "What macro should I use?" question since it's dependent on so many individual factors.
Yes, the benefits of the 2:1 (or 3:2) rotation is seen with the benefit of the T6 4 set bonus with +10% steady shot damage and with using proper trinkets like the [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and large haste effects. It is not really viable to those (like you or me) that do not have the T6 4 set bonus.

Yep, I am an advocate of checking things out for yourself. I think this thread is a great place to get some wonderful ideas that you may not have thought of yourself or ways to better implement your ideas that you can then try out yourself to see if they work for you.

If playing a Survival hunter was "one size fits all", it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Nor would this thread be nearly as informative or, dare I say, entertaining.

Last edited by Whitefyst : 03/25/08 at 7:42 PM. Reason: Adding in second response to avoid back-to-back post and a possible violation

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