I would add a few things you are missing:

- 2:1 react much better with haste. It will drop to 3:2 or 1:1 automatically once you're hasted.
- Since it's much more mana efficient it CAN, and should imo, be used with KC. That adds a bit of dps even as Survival
- Keeping in mind the above 2 points, 7-20-34 is a very solid build, generally better than 0-20-41 unless the fight is short enough to benefit a lot from the extra rapid fire
- Armor penetration will be used at full potential

In sunwell prospective getting 5% haste will be really easy, and while not affecting much your performance in unhasted situation, with 15% haste from IaotH it will put you in the same situation as unhasted BM hunters producing a 3:2.

Also i'd like to add that getting stuck on steadyshots with the macro is just a matter of getting used to it, you may be spamming the macro too fast or just have the feeling of it, check your final results for better reading your performance.


I've just recently switched to 7/21/33 and must say my performance are getting better and better. I still have to try the 20/41 tho, so i don't have a direct comparison with it yet.

As an example here is one of the latest raids i did (we do rotate a lot lately to gear up as best as possible), 1600 DPS on Rage. Nothing to scream about but if you look at buffs you'll notice i had only 1 BM hunter buff and 1 heroism and had to move once for death and decay.
I did not used KC either, probably that would have added 60-70DPS more.
I was using Legionkiller at the time, BBS dropped for me that raid and have yet to test it in a real situation

Wow Web Stats

Hello all, first time poster here.
I've been following the rotation discussions for a while but am quite reluctant to switch.

Some background infromation:

I'm one of those 600+ ms latency guys, from my experiance thus far, I found that it's almost impossible for me to hand-weave or macro 2:1 and recount tells me when I try to, it's approximately 3:2 I'm getting. Hence I decided I would just use the 3:2 in cheeky's.

As I'm only at 3/4 T6 right now. I believe it's still fine to stick wtih 1:1.5. But since 2.4 is going live this week, with Sunwell opening and 3 tokens per kill I need to consider, "Passive Haste or not?" and "3:2 or 1:1.5"

Below are the numbers I got from Cheeky's
(Buffs: Kings, Might, Major agi, burger, mark of wild, sunder, 6200 base boss armor, no, our raid leader doesn't give hunter shaman, never)

T6.5, 0.2s Latency

Non-Haste Setup 1:1.5 =1836 dps
Non-Haste Setup 3:2 = 1730 dps
Haste Setup 3:2 = 1842 dps

T6.5, 0.6s Latency

Non-Haste Setup 1:1.5 = 1678 dps
Non-Haste Setup 3:2 = 1721 dps
Haste Setup 3:2= 1671 dps,



EW Difference(Approximate):

Non-haste Setup: 1198 agi
Haste Setup: 1187 agi
Assume 97% uptime, 3 tanks(coefficient 0.5), 3 rogs( coefficient 1), 1 feral(Coefficient 1), 2 other hunters(Coefficient 1)
EW benefit difference = (1198-1187)*(3*0.5+3+1+2)*0.3*0.97/4 = 5.2 dps


Haste 3:2 setup seems to perform better than non-hasted 1:1.5 at both 0.2s and 0.6s latency, EW benefit considered.
Indeed the spread sheet showed that latency has a much higher effect on passive haste setup, but base on my own observations, I believe the difference should be even larger, between 0.2s and 0.6s, for hasted setup. One thing that bugs me is that the difference between 0.2s and 0.6s for non-haste 3:2 is merely 9 dps, this seems to be much smaller than what I've been experiencing and other rotations are showing difference in the hundreds. Or it could be that, I've never had real experience with passive haste, and bloodlust dropped the autoshot timer to the point that 1:1 is still worse than 1:1.5 while 3:2 is not practically possible due to my latency

After comparing with recount data against Teron, with my current gear setup I'm supposed to be doing approximately 1450 dps given the buffs and my current gear, and the few "Good kill" recount I have are showing 1350 ~ 1400. Even the sample size is quite small, but I'd say that for 1:1.5 rotation, the spread sheet modeled the latency issue quite well. So the question is, is there anyone here that are quite experienced with 2:1 or 3:2 rotation and plays under constant 600+ ms latency? How accurate is the spread sheet when it comes to a rotation that are supposed to be more latency sensitive?

I've decided to switch from BM to SV for Sunwell and have tried to absorb as much information as I can from the last 15 pages of this thread. So far the most suiting theory for me seems to be the following:

I have "BT on farm since autumn"-gear (armory seems to be bugging)

I have 20-30ms and 60fps during raids.

0/28/33 spec (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)

37 passive haste and 3.0 speed weapon which is close enough for "2.9"

When unhasted I'll use (not sure if KC is usable with this)

/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot,Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

When heroism, rapid fire or haste pot is up I'll switch to

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

+

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Did I forget or misunderstand something?

===========================

Now this is just me, but i'd spec " WH Calculator "

And for macro when hasted i'd use

The reason i'm keeping KC is it never failed me or bugging a macro.

In normal (none hasted) my macro goes
With an MS ~150ish i'm around 2000,Dps most of the fights.


And hi all, first time poster.

How I understand it having 2.22 weapon speed is not good for 3:2 or 1:1.5 so do you have any wws's to back up the "2000 ish" dps?

For Sunwell, that spec may end up hurting you a little bit. You do have 3/3 EW, which is important, but you have 0/3 in TotH...which is a HUGE mana back talent for Survival Hunters. You have the points in Efficiency, which is good...but it has been proven time and time again that the points in IAotH are not worth it over specing down to Barrage in the Marks tree. The extra haste from IAotH is not enough to make it valuable, and the randomness of the procs makes it an amazingly annoying talent for us, since we have to switch macros every time we would get it. Not worth it imo.


Check the macro that I posted (and that you just quoted as well). You can keep KC as well as LB. It takes a little setting up, but it will guarantee that you KC wont get "stuck". Also, /castsequence macros go slower than just /cast...so you should notice a good difference there as well. The reason the 2nd part of the macro I posted has a /castsequence is to make sure KC doent get stuck.

This is the about the same macro I use, and I love it. I have even added commands to it like /use Berserker's Call.
I have pretty top notch gear, and 2000 DPS can be pretty hard to do with a good majority of the fights for us. I know for myself, I am hardly ever placed in a "DPS" group (meaning a feral Druid, Warrior or Shaman)...so to pull out those kinda numbers without those things is very hard. Best I have gotten was about 1900 on Gorefiend...and all I had in my group was a BM Hunter...so I have no doubt it can be done, but a lot of times it has to do with group make up.

Well I've been trying out some different macros and different rotations the past few days and I can't really seem to get anything nailed down that shows me outstanding dps other than the 2:1 /cast /cast spam macro. Now I do run into some problems with it getting stuck not letting another auto shot go off for long streaks of steady shots, think I've counted up to 9 while testing on banish mobs, but overall I've seen higher dps in raids with that than with any castsequence macro or 1:1.5 rotation.

Now I probably should take some more time to really get my manual weaving skills up to speed but its been so long since I've had to weave something that I've lost my edge for it.

Considering that, I also manage to get a shaman in my group and have a dragonspine trophy to play with so I'm gonna try a real heavy haste build with imp aoth, dst procs, haste pots, zerking, 1 rapid fire every 3 min, and hopefully someone will have drums in my grp.

I'm wondering how many people have tried this out in some fights and what your dps looks like through out the fight.

I started out with 0/28/33 because there's a retri pala in the raid and I always have SP so mana is not an issue. :p

Dont have working dmg meters yet so cant tell much information so far.

I know recount has a working version for 2.4 if you are running into problems with other dmg meters.

First time poster, and I love this thread. I've been a survival hunter for a while and lots of good little tidbits in here. I have a question about the new haste gear from ZA and the new badge loot.

My guild is up to Kael, so I have no MH/BT loot (although Winterchill is likely dying tonight.....not too happy about the removal of the attunement in 2.4, but we'll take it if it's offered I suppose ). I am very happy with my 1:1.5 shot rotation using IAS and the Sunfury Bow (all arcane, no multi). I'm always at or near the top of the DMs on a raid, which I've been pleasantly surprised with considering I'm SV.

However, I have no idea how all this new haste gear from ZA and the new badge loot will affect me. Should I be avoiding it like the plague? Should I be getting as much as I can and hope for a 1:1 like the BM guys have? Has anyone posted here about the use of haste with a SV spec and I missed it?

I think gettting to 1:1 as surivval would be incredible, but I actually have no idea how much haste I'd need (or what weapon to go for), or if that's even possible.

Thanks in advance for any feedback or advice.

Well from what I've seen, with imp aspect of the hawk proc, and dst proc, I've been able to keep a 1:1 ratio. Same with rapid fire and drums or drums and haste pot, otherwise im using 1:1.5. Thinking im gonna go back to 41/20 and non-hasted with just haste cons for 1:1 though because the proc rate on dst and imp aoth seems alot lower than it used to be.

Sorry if this has been answered before, but what exactly is a 2:1 rotation?

As Tiberium pointed out, people in this thread are still erroneously talking about 3:2 as if it is a survival rotation. Before you post please go read at least a the few previous pages. 3:2 is what results from a macro that BMers spam, if survival does the same they will (most likely??) end up with the following:

2:1 is:
Steady, Steady, Auto
Steady, Steady, Auto
Rinse & Repeat

From some more spreadsheet analysis I have come to the conclusions:

- As Gurth suggested, 7/20/33 is superior to 0/20/41 if you are going to use a 2:1 rotation
- A few haste items are okay, such as the new JC ring, clutch of demise, and cloak of fiends, & duplicitous Guise... but in chest/gloves/leggs and other major slots you will want to avoid haste items for superior agility/armor penetration
- DST is godly for 2:1
- Gurth what macro do you use for this? Thanks for the WWS, post some more logs if you get the chance!

Just looking at our logs, I couldn't find any recent ones of Rage cause i've missed a few raids.

On Azgalor a while back I pulled 1256 DPS with no group buffs and wearing 3 or 4 pieces of season 2/3 pvp gear at the time...my gear has gotten better recently. You pulled 1159 with much better gear.... some more comparisons would be useful.

Here's my WWS on that night.

Vasilii WWS

Rotations are modeled in the form of Special:AutoShot (sometimes a person will revers the order). A "rotations" would be the length of time it takes to re-do the exact same set of shots over and over again.

So the current most used rotations would be:

1:1 = 1 Steady Shot : 1 Auto-Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

1.5:1 = Steady Shot + Arcane Shot/Multi-Shot : Auto-Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot

2:1 = 2 Steady Shots : 1 Auto-Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

3:2 = 3 Steady Shots : 2 Auto-Shots
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

Its all based on how much haste you have, and your talent spec. For most MM/Surv builds during a period of 0 +haste, a 1.5:1 rotation is pretty common. It will depend on if you put points in iAS and such. For BM spec's, the most common non-extra haste (other than talents) rotation right now is 3:2.

These rotations obviously change when you get +haste effects. For example, being Survival, my normal rotation is the 1.5:1 rotations. However, when I get +haste effects like Heroism or Rapid Fire, I change my rotation to a 3:2 or 1:1 rotation get push my DPS higher.

As you can see, the 1:1, 2:1 and 3:2 macros are exactly the same. They will change accordingly based on how much haste you have. A minimal amount of haste will do the 2:1 rotation; a little more will lead to the 3:2 and a large amount of +haste will lead to 1:1. 1:1 is the most DPS output, as if you get to that point you will see you are firing the shots off exceptionally fast.

And finally, if you are looking for more information regarding rotations, I would highly recommend looking here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13107-h...n_illustrated/

As it is filled with a TON of information regarding all of our rotation, how they work, and what will work best for you.

I always though hunters had a 1.5s gcd, so whats the point of using haste with a 2:1 rotation? Having only a little haste doesn't let you cast a 2:1 rotation any faster.

Using a 3.0 bow, you'd need at least ~30% haste to make a 1:1 rotation with the same dps as a 2:1 rotation.

I've read most of the posts in this thread, but imo you're relying a little too much on cheeky's in terms of rotation. It's a lot more accurate if you simply log all your shots during a 2 minutes cycle on dr. boom and look the dps up on sws/recount.

Other way around.

The Sunwell gear does seem very lackluster as far as Survival goes. At least something like [Shivering Felspine] trades non-DPS stats like hit and stam for haste, while having 20 more AP and a yellow slot on top of that(over Halberd). But of course, that's comparing Sunwell gear to BT/MH gear, and not to other Sunwell gear.

Does anyone know specifically how much haste you need to go from a 3.0 speed weapon down to 2:1/3:2. Obviously 1:1 would be unobtainable with just gear, so I imagine a 1:1 would just be 3:2 haste + Bloodlust or Rapid Fire.

Problem on Azgalor is that we always have the druid tank him, which means no sunder armor. Rage, Anatherion and Kaz reflect better the standard perfomance.

Edit: Oh yeah, macro i was using is the standard

/cast !Autoshot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exsits] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorFrame:Clear()

I'm still not sure if adding a line for kill command is worth, i have the feeling it delay autos sometimes. If i understood it correctly it happens when it goes off after second steady, delaying auto to the point it doesn't go off and i have 3 steady in a row. Ideally you want KC between the steadys but it's impossible to macro it and you have to throw in it manually. Take this with care tho, i'm still looking into it and it might be totally wrong.

That's not true. You will fire same amount of steadys, what you get is to fire more autoshots. once you get 20%sh haste you'll get 2 autoshots per 3 steadys, at 40%-50%+ 1 autoshot per steady. That's in theory ofc, in practice you'll not have a very fixed result since a number of variables will intervene.

The concept is still true tho, you cannot fire more than 1 steady every 1,5s, no matter how much haste you get.



One more thing, reading posts recently it seems to me that most hunters misconcept autoshot cast time. What makes 2:1 and 3:2 viable is the new autoshot mechanics introduced in 2.3.

Autoshot WILL use its cast time during steadyshot cast and will go off as soon steady cast finish (probably affected by latency too). If autoshot would wait to cast that steady finished its casting unsig a 3:2 or 2:1 would be a nonsense.

Gurth any chance to test out the 0/20/41 spec yet.

I am trying to distract myself from the super OOM problems I am seeing since 2.4 and toying with specs. I think we have reached the point where we have a pretty solid base for our specs and are now looking at how best to spend the last 8 points. The base I speak of is 0/20/33 i.e. full mortal shots (with effciency or imp mark depending on raid needs) and 3/3 EW (Tier 1 and 2 largely at personal discretion).

I have not tried and imp Hawk based spec in a while and would be interested to hear your feedback on how this compares with the 20/41.

I'm almost positive you are wrong. Auto Shot still has its own, independent cast time. What happens in steady-spam macros is that there is a disconnect between your GCD (client) and actual casts (server) where there is the ability to squeeze out 2 Steady Shots in less than 1.5s total time. I also believe Auto Shot's cast time is being effected by haste (like any other cast) and going off faster than 0.5s.

But I have seen no evidence that the cast time is simultaneous with Steady Shot. If so, you basically have non-interfering shots, the holy grail of Hunter mechanics.

The way I've always seen the 2.3 autoshot cast time is that any shot queued up during that time is just held off until autoshot itself goes off, this goes for instants as well.

For example, say you click Arcane Shot with .3 seconds left on Auto Shot. The GCD will be triggered, but Arcane Shot (and it's cooldown) is held off until Auto Shot finally goes off. A Steady Shot which is queued up at 1.8 seconds left on Auto Shot, would still go off at .3 seconds and Auto Shot would remain unaffected. However, a Steady Shot queued up at .3 seconds on Auto Shot will be held off until Auto Shot goes off, but GCD will be triggered .3 seconds earlier. So it would appear as if the GCD is faster than Steady Shot.

This change, which opened up certain rotation possibilities also, I believe, led to the dreaded "stuck Auto Shot" bug (which still very much exists in 2.4 despite Blizzards claim to fix it). Where an instant is queued up at sub-.5 seconds on Auto Shot, and in that half second, the target becomes unavailable, and the shot is infinitely held off. The only way to fix it is to find a new target and make sure that skill gets used (which can be a hassle if the locked skill is Kill Command).