Gurth

I do believe you are correct, actually. The same things it happens on autoshot being held off till steady cast tho, and that is what you experience on steady shot spam, i did not quite understand what Cheeky meant in his post, but i do know that i'm defenetly not waiting 0.5 (or even 0.4 sec if you believe autoshot cast time being affect by haste) between second steady shot damage and autoshot damage.

Will go on Dr boom tomorrow and record some combat logs to show you i'm not drunk, which indeed i am at the moment :p

 

Groggan

So, has anyone noticed this yet: [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]

75 agility on a two-handed staff. Plus 350 armor penetration.

Am I the only one who thinks "Need" when they see that?

Oh and this isn't too bad either: [Staff of Primal Fury]

 

Jobby

No AP though :< Also, pretty sure feral druids in the raid would castrate a hunter who took it.

 

Groggan

Still, 110Agi pre buffs. Two [Shiv of Exsanguination] is probably better, but I'd be willing to bet there are fewer feral druids in a 25 man raid than there are rogues.

I just wish they would create some high-stat, low dps melee weapons for hunters like they do druids.

 

Iluminati

rogues dont use daggers anyway.

 

Threepi

One of the rogues in my guild is threatening to go Mutilate and take one. I gotta get him a Warglaive before we get too far in Sunwell.

But yeah, 2x [Shiv of Exsanguination] will probably be the best melee weapons out there. Especially with the benefit of double mana oils. Also, wasn't there supposed to be a DPS oil that adds AP or something? Anyone know what happened to that or how to get them?

 

• vank

 

Evil-Homer!

Heya all, Ive been Sv for a long time now. My guild has cleared MH and are working on Illidan in BT. I think my gear is pretty good, armory here The World of Warcraft Armory.

The problem I am having is that I don't feel like my dps is where it should be. I really think its due to my shot rotations that I use but I'm still unsure. Here is a link to our Wow Web Stats.
Few things to note, yes i know i didnt socket my shoulders right for SV, i went through a brief phase where I was going to spec MM, but I changed my mind and I havent been able to regem them with BT gems My main shot rotation macro is this:
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Thats the one i used on bosses and such. I have this one that ive toyed around with, but it just clips everything and doesnt actually weave.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Other than that I would love to have any ideas.

*note about my spec, I normally don't have much of a mana issue(I either squeak by with >1000 mana at the end or have to pop in AotV at the last 30-45 seconds of a boss), and the last respec I messed up(I arena during off times). I normally have one point in TotH.

 

Groggan

From what I can tell (and I may be wrong, I've only just recently come back to WoW and to being SV) using a macro it is impossible to "clip" shots anymore. That's why the:
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
macro can morph cleanly from 3:2 to 2:1 and finally to 1:1.

The second macro you listed will seem to clip, but in reality it is just delaying (and it seems allowing the cast times to begin during the shot that is delaying things). So, your arcane or multi shot will push the auto shot, but only a little. This is OK I gather.

It seems to me, that the ideal way of thinking about shot rotations now would be to find which of your shots does the most damage and prioritize that shot so that you fire it as soon as it is off cooldown. So, say your multi shot does the most damage, ideally you would want it to fire every time it is available immediately, even at the cost of delaying another shot for the cast time of multi. That's why a 3:2 rotation works so well for BM, even though it would seem that it would be better not to delay the auto shot.

Is that right??

 

ilunis1

I've heard mention of a crit cap. I've never heard it in terms of hunters before only to melee. Is there such a thing and how/why does it work?

 

• Intermission

I dont know the details, but I believe it is due to glances not able to crit (and nor can misses).

So if a duel wielder had a 25% chance to miss, a 25% chance to be glanced and a 10% change to be dodged, that leaves only 40% of attacks that can crit. So more than 40% crit would not be effective on white attacks.

Those numbers are obviously way out of whack, but I think this is the principle behind the melee 'crit cap', and why it would not apply to hunters (unless afflicted with a -hit% debuff, assuming a 2 roll system(?))

 

Whitefyst

Way to think out of the box...

I tried these out against my current 1H and 2H weapon choices with using my standard raid buffs with no target debuffs.

With [Halberd of Desolation]: I have 1397.60 DPS, 113.83 s to OOM, and 295.06 EW AP.
With [Trollbane]*^: 1400.08 DPS, 113.89 s to OOM, and 296.68 EW AP
With 2x [Netherbane]*: 1394.23 DPS, 113.85 s to OOM, and 295.38 EW AP
With [Stanchion of Primal Instinct]*: 1409.24 DPS, 114.07 s to OOM, and 301.84 EW AP
With [Staff of Primal Fury]*: 1389.70 DPS, 113.78 s to OOM, and 293.45 EW AP

* Lost 30 HR from Halberd to fall 20 HR below cap, so had to replace [Ring of the Recalcitrant] with [Ring of Deceitful Intent] to get 1 below hit cap.
^ With 2 [Delicate Crimson Spinel] socketed (which I do not have yet but will once the 2.4 badge vendor opens up since guild is only allowing epic gems for T6 instance gear)

[Staff of Primal Fury] is a downgrade for me.

As can be seen, the [Stanchion of Primal Instinct] is actually a pretty good upgrade for me at this time; however, I think that a hunter should be passing on this to feral druids that want it since the item is really meant for them. I would have no problem fighting for it against a Moonkin though since the item is just as good for them as us with how they should be fighting.

It is also better than (at least for the boss debuffs I used):

[Apolyon, the Soul-Render]*%: 1414.26 DPS, 113.25 s to OOM, 285.94 EW AP (good personal DPS, ~+5, bad raid DPS, ~-33)
[Shiv of Exsanguination]x2*: 1417.47 DPS, 113.85 s to OOM, 295.38 EW AP (good personal DPS, ~+8, bad raid DPS, ~-15)

% With 3 [Delicate Crimson Spinel] socketed

However, there are better survival hunter options out there, for me these include:

[Shivering Felspine]*$: 1422.46, 112.41 s to OOM, 297.76 EW AP (good personal DPS, ~+13, bad raid DPS, ~-10)

$ With a [Delicate Crimson Spinel] socketed.

There may be more, but this is all the time I have ATM. And yes, I realize that much of [Shivering Felspine] benefit is from the haste and that under some situations that haste can end up making this item inferior.

 

Whitefyst

From looking at your gear, you seem to be in good shape for where your guild is; however, you do have a few non-ideal items. These are:

Head: Since this is your only T5 piece, I would suggest using the [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] if you can get it instead. It is much better.
Neck, Belt, Ring: [Choker of Vile Intent], [Girdle of the Prowler], [Necklace of the Deep] - I realize that you have these out-dated items to help you make the hit cap and that to do so you often have to make less than ideal choices until you have better options. Definitely a priority is to get better hit options so that these can be replaced since they are a significant loss in personal DPS and EW AP.

Concerning your spec, I am a fan of the 0/20/41 but realize that Barrage builds work good for folks too. The only suggested change I have concerns the 10 points you have in the 2nd MM tier. If you need to keep IHM, I would suggest reallocating 4 of the 5 in Efficiency (leave the last one in Efficiency to still get CE and provide some mana) as:
- 1/3 TotH: This gives you your mana efficiency with spending less points. 5/5 Efficiency is 10%. 2/3 TotH at our gear levels provides more mana. For me it provides about 13.82% (but I also have 5/5 MT). So that is +3.82% mana with being able to spend 3 points someplace else. Unfortunately, if you want to keep 2/2 in CE and 3/3 EW, you can't get 2/3 TotH, but 1/3 TotH and 1/5 Efficiency provides roughly 8.5% with the 0/27/34 build.
- 2/2 in RK: This allows you to do RF more often; and thus, is an increase in DPS.
- 2/2 in GftT: Gives your pet more focus so that it can do more damage, increasing DPS.

If you want to keep at around or better than the 10% mana efficiency you have now with keeping 2/2 CE, you can move a point from GftT if you are not using your pet as much in MH/BT into Efficiency to get above 10%.

If you really like your spec as is, another option I would suggest is moving that 5th point in Efficiency (it is a free point) to either TotH for about 4.5% more mana or, if mana is not a concern, to RWS for more damage.

Concerning your DPS, I didn't look at the overall numbers since they are very misleading depending on how much you have to move and stay off the ideal rotation. I looked at Teron Gorefiend since that is mostly stand and shoot. Your DPS for that fight seems appropriate for your gear and your group makeup.

From what I saw (I didn't look at the whole log), your macro seems to be implementing your rotation well. I did see a few places where autoshot chained consecutively, but I believe these were all probably times you were moving since your rotation appeared to start up from scratch after. That explains for the slightly greater amount of autos than expected for the steadies and greater multishots than arcane shots.

However, I really didn't see any haste effects used (I may have missed them). I did a quick search through your log and didn't see Rapid Fire used once or any other haste effects like drums or haste potions. Is there a reason that you are avoiding haste effects? I realize that your macro does not perform well under large haste effects, but you can switch to the steady-auto macro that automatically performs the 2:1, 3:2, or 1:1 rotation depending on the overall haste effect. If its haste effects you control, such as using RF or a haste potion, it is a simple matter to switch the rotation macro after starting the haste effect and switching back when the haste is over. Properly using haste can increase your DPS significantly.

 

Sore82

Thats an interesting staff that I did not really consider in my gear set...to make it a little easier, lets break down the stats of what would be considered "equivalent' Sunwell weapons (looking at +DPS stats only, not including stam or anything like that):


[Stanchion of Primal Instinct]
Agi w/ 35agi enchant = 110
Armor Pen = 350


[Shiv of Exsanguination]x2
Agi w/ 20agi enchant x2 = 90
Attack Power = 84
Armor pen = 392


[Shivering Felspine]
Agi w/ 35agi enchant + 10agi socket = 97agi
Attack Power = 120
Haste = 30

Interesting stats on each...they all have there own advantages and disadvantages. I would guess you would need to sit down and figure out how many melee DPS you have in the raid on a normal basis and figure out which ones would be the best for you personally. And obviously it would be easier to get either of the staffs over trying to get 2 of the daggers.

The 30 Haste on the Shivering Felspine should be fine for most people, unless you are, for some reason, stacking several +haste items. +Haste is fine for us in moderate amounts...and will help tighten up the 1.5:1 rotations. You just want to be careful and not add so much +Haste that you are giving up other more important stats (like agility), and getting so much +Haste that it starts to cause clipping with your rotations.

 

Groggan

That's about what I figured as well. I just thought I'd toss them out there and make sure I wasn't off in what I was thinking. Personally we often end up with a physical damage heavy raid, which means for me personally the Stanchion may be ideal.

Is there a formula floating around for the effects of armor penetration for hunters? I know the ones for agi/rap values but haven't noticed any for penetration in my perusals.

 

Jobby

Somewhat off topic, but has anyone noticed a change in how autocast works with wind serpents in raids now :? I just got one, and I don't know how it worked before, but it seems to stay in melee and LB when it has the focus now.

 

ugla

Since 2.4, I have seen both the old behavior and what you are describing. I couldn't pinpoint what was changing between each so I'm sticking to macroing lightning breath in. If you have any other information though, it'd be extremely helpful. My macro now works fine, but I occasionally break CC with it... if autocast worked I'd be a lot happier.

 

Shazbot

Yeah, the only time I've seen my wind serpent get out of range to LB is when the target is stunned. Otherwise it just stays in and melee/LB.

 

Sore82

I was testing this out a few weeks ago to see if anything had changed. The pet would stay in melee for LB 90% of the time, but every now and then would move out of melee range to cast its LB. So, whatever...its just 1 extra line of text in the macro, so not that big of a deal for me at least.

 

Evil-Homer!

-Whitefyst
First off I really appreciate you taking such a deep look into my question.

1. As far as my spec, I do normally have 1/3 into TotH I just have been crazy busy and haven't had time to spec back again(moving RL). I really like your suggestions with the 27/34 build, I will test that out when I spec again.

2. Gear - Yes its a struggle for me to get hit cap, and i normally run a tad under depending on what boss we are on. I have the S3 Helm, but its pvp gemmed up so I'm a little weary on re-gemming that for pve. Items I just can't seem to get are the Bracers from Rage, the belt from RoS and i keep missing Archimonde so alas I cant get the helm either!

3. Haste - I have none, I only use RF during times where my pot is on CD or I get a bloodlust (i use it right after BL ends to get that added bit of haste effect) Im not a LW so i cant use drums nor am i ever in a group that uses them. I never use haste potions because if i dont spam my mana/ fel mana pots then i will go oom very very quickly.
*Note about haste, I personally have shied away from it because it seems from the testing(Player and Dr. Boom-Although multi shot screws Dr Boom testing up) i have done that it doesnt out damage my 1/1.5 rotation. Multi shot can hit like a truck and it feels when lag and positioning is good that i can get more shots off. I could be wrong though

Unfortunately the hunters in my guild are rarely ever put in a group that does them any good. I call it the meatloaf group because its all the people left over.

thanks again!

 

Nebelwerfer

First post, so be gentle...

I'd noticed this as well. Recently converted to survival as I've finally picked up the gear and discovered a rotation that wasn't sacrificing hundreds of personal DPS. My rit unbuffed atm sits at around 36.54%, so I thought it was time go out and get a Wind Serpent again. I did exactly that yesterday, but wanted complete control, so macro'd and switched off auto cast of Lightning Breath, assuming this would force it to stay at range. I was surprised to find this wasn't the case, but I can definitely remember the issues you raise there last time I had a WS.

Now the major thing I'm coming to terms with is whether to switch from the 0/20/41 I'm using now and head more towards a 7/20/34 as I begin to look down the road towards Brutallus...

 

Sore82

My personal opinion, for whats its worth, is that iAotH is not worth it. In order for you to use it correctly, you will have to switch shot rotations EVERY time it procs; and because it procs randomly, this means you have to be watching your buff bars all the time. This is the same reason why I hate the DST...its a random haste proc that is enough haste that causes your 1:1.5 rotation to clip...so you HAVE to change to a 3:2/2:1/1:1 rotation. This gets exceptionally annoying on fights like Brut, where you are trying to keep Scorpid up for the tanks, renewing Mark, and using Haste pots/Rapid Fire the second they are up.

I suggest skipping the points in BM and going down into Barrage instead. Again, thats my own personal opinion on the mater.

 

Osse

Any survival logs from Brutallus to give a little comparison?

For now I'm using 0/28/33 with 3.0 speed and 90 passive haste.

Also using macro as I cant really manually weave in that fight as it's... going to get me killed.

/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot(Rank 6), Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Gotten 2x 3%, a few 5-6% and one 1% wipe so far. (Yeah, unlucky we didnt get a kill for first reset, too many fucked up attempts)

I was not in the MT group but will be next time we go there as it looks pretty good on paper. Should be over 150 dps increase with the damage loss from FI calculated in it.

On average I was pushing 1600-1650 dps and probably the best average WWS log of my performance in that fight would be this:

Wow Web Stats

Slighly lower crit rate than I should have and a try without agi scroll. With the group changes I should be sporting at 1750-1800 dps.

Would definately be interested in 7/20/33 logs.

 

Jander

I personally gained 70 DPS switching from 20/41 1:1.5 roatation to a 7/20/34 roatation with a /cast Steady Shot spam macro. I even had a superior group makeup for the 20/41 build. If I had gotten the 6% from two more hunters on the Ioth build attempt I would have been over 2200 DPS for a plus 3 minute kill.

WWS Loading... 20/41

Wow Web Stats 7/20/34

 

Osse

Oh you have DST and lots of drums in the group, that's why the dps is so high I guess. :|